EV-based road transportation is not viable

[vad]

Longer term if you're paycheque to paycheque then there are other problems than EVs on your mind - there are too many people that are in financial peril in this country and elsewhere.  That's a problem even if they don't get an EV, what if the clutch packs in on their car. Something like 1 in 3 British people have less than £100 in savings, it's utterly mad.

So the radical socialist’s idea of increasing tax pressure on lower middle class, is to:

1) push them below poverty line

2) then get them addicted to dole while they loose professional skills and their children get no or poor higher education

3) expect them to vote for the socialists who are in charge of dole distribution

If you feel that after such transformation the country would live happily ever after, you are making huge mistake.

The history says the the next likely steps would be:

4) your extremely smart and knowledgeable civil servants would destroy the country’s economy in a generation

5) the extremely smart and knowledgeable, but completely incompetent socialist government will be overthrown by a strong dictator, who may, depending on taste, hang the socialists on trees, shoot them on a stadium, incarcerate them in concentration camps, or poison with Novichok.

6) grandchildren of the first dole recipients could finally leave slums and make a career in military, serving as cannon fodder in wars with neighboring countries.

[MadScientist]

It’s already here now in many markets here there’s a good market  in second hand EVs. So the lower paid can do as they always did ie buy used , that will only increase as EVs age you can get a perfectly good leaf for 9k for example

The solution is the removal of dino juice cats tuats what the EU countries are aiming at. It’s a perfectly acceptable target and over the NEXT 20  years BEVS will rise to the challenge

There’s no intrinsic   reason to keep ice cars no more then we don’t make steam engines anymore. Simply cause some people may want them is not a reason to change public  policy that these are environmentally damaging , some people want to smoke in pubs we now don’t allow that either

Ice is dead baby !!

[MadScientist]

Longer term if you're paycheque to paycheque then there are other problems than EVs on your mind - there are too many people that are in financial peril in this country and elsewhere.  That's a problem even if they don't get an EV, what if the clutch packs in on their car. Something like 1 in 3 British people have less than £100 in savings, it's utterly mad.

So the radical socialist’s idea of increasing tax pressure on lower middle class, is to:

1) push them below poverty line

2) then get them addicted to dole while they loose professional skills and their children get no or poor higher education

3) expect them to vote for the socialists who are in charge of dole distribution

If you feel that after such transformation the country would live happily ever after, you are making huge mistake.

The history says the the next likely steps would be:

4) your extremely smart and knowledgeable civil servants would destroy the country’s economy in a generation

5) the extremely smart and knowledgeable, but completely incompetent socialist government will be overthrown by a strong dictator, who may, depending on taste, hang the socialists on trees, shoot them on a stadium, incarcerate them in concentration camps, or poison with Novichok.

6) grandchildren of the first dole recipients could finally leave slums and make a career in military, serving as cannon fodder in wars with neighboring countries.

I think we. An leave the  dictators comment to trump and the GOP , the rest of the developed is more reasonable

Tax pressure on the poor is a fact of life typically mitigated in developed countries by subsidies on various things like health , housing , transport etc. the poor are not big loaners of cars a yeah so the effect of BEVS is not applicable

Many poor love dorky on the back of welfare entitlements so not much will change there

BEVs have no impact on the poor it’s a zero sum have for them anyway.

[CatalinaWOW]

Interesting for a believer in science to use an inaccurate pejorative "dino juice" in arguments.  If appears to be an appeal to emotion rather than reason. 

There are two reasons to appeal to emotion rather than reason.  Either the facts don't support your position, or you are too ignorant or incoherent to present the rational argument.  Since I believe that EVs are at least a potentially viable solution to a real problem I am forced to conclude which of the two reasons is applicable.

[MadScientist]

So your solution is to punish the people that work the hardest for the least amount money by coming late at work every day?  The biggest problem of getting into renewable energy sources is to get their prices on par with the cost of oil so that the lower working class can keep on living an affordable life. If not, they'll keep voting for people that want to keep using fossil fuels. See the US state Wyoming that plans to ban electric vehicles alltogether.

Well it sure is a problem to solve, but it could always be resolved with a revenue neutral taxation concept.

Basic idea: add something like $x to every gallon of gas, but every citizen gets an annual rebate that's equivalent to that tax on gasoline divided by the number of people in the area they live in or some other demographic.

Now (on average) no one is any worse off, and some are actually doing better than others, but suddenly you have a big incentive to reduce your usage of gasoline.

It is not going to work for the simple reason that the lower class can't afford efficient cars. Simple example... I'm almost due for a new car. My options are to spend 5k euro on a similar car I have now or 10k on a way more efficient hybrid. In the long run the hybrid will be way cheaper to run due to the lower fuel costs but it requires twice the investment upfront.

Most developed European nations see public transport as a solution to travel needs of the poor. Cars are typically too expensive to buy tax and run for the very poor. Bev doesn’t make this  worse or better.

Hence the issues for the poor sill remain  and their access to private car ownership will remain the same. What will benefit them is the renewed focus on city public transport as we see investment in rail, metro and trams  systems.

We need to abandon this obsession will the “ car centric “ lifestyle future generations will have access to caf sharing schemes , better public transport and housing designed to be better supported by shops and local services. Planners I know do my now consider the “ car” as an excuse to avoid proper planning in fact they are actively against schemes that rely on private transport I know of several large scale projects turned down because of excessive car parking.

[MadScientist]

Interesting for a believer in science to use an inaccurate pejorative "dino juice" in arguments.  If appears to be an appeal to emotion rather than reason. 

There are two reasons to appeal to emotion rather than reason.  Either the facts don't support your position, or you are too ignorant or incoherent to present the rational argument.  Since I believe that EVs are at least a potentially viable solution to a real problem I am forced to conclude which of the two reasons is applicable.

Dino juice is often used as a term I’m well aware of thd makeup of hydrocarbons

None of that changed thd point.  Must EU countries as a collective policy have d goal to eliminate hydrocarbon based road transport firstly the private car then as technology allows all ICE based transport that includes hybrids.

Just like smoking bans. Sure there are those that will be dragged screaming along but who really  cares  the polls show broad agreement on climate change plans in fact the youth voters want  faster trnsistions 

As I said the burning of hydrocarbons is going to be gradually phased out , just like smoking in public spaces or other potential polluting situations.

These policies have broad electoral support and civil servants know this.

You think the vast majority of ordinary taxpayers give a hoot that the emmisions  tax on a new Range Rover is going  to 1700 euros per annum  in 2023 nope they are cheering from the side walks. Add to this the carbon tax addition to certain fuels from mid 2023 and you can expect a bonanza in BEV sales

[Wallace Gasiewicz]

It’s already here now in many markets here there’s a good market  in second hand EVs. So the lower paid can do as they always did ie buy used , that will only increase as EVs age you can get a perfectly good leaf for 9k for example

The solution is the removal of dino juice cats tuats what the EU countries are aiming at. It’s a perfectly acceptable target and over the NEXT 20  years BEVS will rise to the challenge

There’s no intrinsic   reason to keep ice cars no more then we don’t make steam engines anymore. Simply cause some people may want them is not a reason to change public  policy that these are environmentally damaging , some people want to smoke in pubs we now don’t allow that either

Ice is dead baby !!

Says the man with no country

Even in Canada, with high gas prices, the top sellers are gas guzzling big vehicles. I personally do not know how they can afford the gasoline,
And their electricity is mostly Hydro
I think we have a long way to go on getting really good low emission cars on the road. Most places on earth use carbon to make electricity
Electric vehicles are just changing the point where emissions occur.
We need better and more electric generating, transmission and storage (batteries are still not good enough)
It would be nice to have a battery vehicle that meets our needs.

Just my opinion

[SiliconWizard]

It’s already here now in many markets here there’s a good market  in second hand EVs. So the lower paid can do as they always did ie buy used , that will only increase as EVs age you can get a perfectly good leaf for 9k for example

The solution is the removal of dino juice cats tuats what the EU countries are aiming at. It’s a perfectly acceptable target and over the NEXT 20  years BEVS will rise to the challenge

There’s no intrinsic   reason to keep ice cars no more then we don’t make steam engines anymore. Simply cause some people may want them is not a reason to change public  policy that these are environmentally damaging , some people want to smoke in pubs we now don’t allow that either

Ice is dead baby !!

Says the man with no country

Even in Canada, with high gas prices, the top sellers are gas guzzling big vehicles. I personally do not know how they can afford the gasoline,
And their electricity is mostly Hydro
I think we have a long way to go on getting really good low emission cars on the road. Most places on earth use carbon to make electricity
Electric vehicles are just changing the point where emissions occur.
We need better and more electric generating, transmission and storage (batteries are still not good enough)
It would be nice to have a battery vehicle that meets our needs.

Just my opinion

Well, of course. I've been saying this all along too.

But we're just tackling this problem as we have pretty much always tackled anything: shitting all over the place first, and then maybe trying to fix it much later, when it's close to too late, and making as many people suffer as possible along the way. Great stuff.

[TimFox]

It’s already here now in many markets here there’s a good market  in second hand EVs. So the lower paid can do as they always did ie buy used , that will only increase as EVs age you can get a perfectly good leaf for 9k for example

The solution is the removal of dino juice cats tuats what the EU countries are aiming at. It’s a perfectly acceptable target and over the NEXT 20  years BEVS will rise to the challenge

There’s no intrinsic   reason to keep ice cars no more then we don’t make steam engines anymore. Simply cause some people may want them is not a reason to change public  policy that these are environmentally damaging , some people want to smoke in pubs we now don’t allow that either

Ice is dead baby !!

Says the man with no country

Even in Canada, with high gas prices, the top sellers are gas guzzling big vehicles. I personally do not know how they can afford the gasoline,
And their electricity is mostly Hydro
I think we have a long way to go on getting really good low emission cars on the road. Most places on earth use carbon to make electricity
Electric vehicles are just changing the point where emissions occur.
We need better and more electric generating, transmission and storage (batteries are still not good enough)
It would be nice to have a battery vehicle that meets our needs.

Just my opinion

WRT emissions location:  obviously, this does not impact total greenhouse gas emission, but shifting the points of emission can be useful for reducing near-surface levels of air pollution in populated areas, to the benefit of health.

[MadScientist]

 

It’s already here now in many markets here there’s a good market  in second hand EVs. So the lower paid can do as they always did ie buy used , that will only increase as EVs age you can get a perfectly good leaf for 9k for example

The solution is the removal of dino juice cats tuats what the EU countries are aiming at. It’s a perfectly acceptable target and over the NEXT 20  years BEVS will rise to the challenge

There’s no intrinsic   reason to keep ice cars no more then we don’t make steam engines anymore. Simply cause some people may want them is not a reason to change public  policy that these are environmentally damaging , some people want to smoke in pubs we now don’t allow that either

Ice is dead baby !!

Says the man with no country

Even in Canada, with high gas prices, the top sellers are gas guzzling big vehicles. I personally do not know how they can afford the gasoline,
And their electricity is mostly Hydro
I think we have a long way to go on getting really good low emission cars on the road. Most places on earth use carbon to make electricity
Electric vehicles are just changing the point where emissions occur.
We need better and more electric generating, transmission and storage (batteries are still not good enough)
It would be nice to have a battery vehicle that meets our needs.

Just my opinion

Large countries addicted to hydrocarbon private vehicles have particular issues the thread was about EU policy

Firstly removing pollutants from roads and especially urban centres is a very good thing secondly electricity generation is itself going more green anyway as the same public policy is being applied  there. Here in Ireland we genetate over 30 % from renewables  to such an extent that we are building an underwater interconnected to France to export the energy as we currently have to shut renewables down in peak conditions. We have a billion euro 350 offshore wind farm scheduled for 2026 largely funded by esso !!

Hence energy regulators are happy the power  station sector will meet its carbon targets they need to as the forthcoming Cabon taxes will hit over reliance on hydrocarbons generators hard.

In fact if one adds up the proposed wind and PV plans there will be an abundance of energy and significant price competition from generators.

[tom66]

WRT emissions location:  obviously, this does not impact total greenhouse gas emission, but shifting the points of emission can be useful for reducing near-surface levels of air pollution in populated areas, to the benefit of health.

Power plants are also a good target for carbon capture, so even if you have EVs powered by coal/nat gas it can be a winner.

While I'm not a big fan of carbon capture storage (CCS) because it's not really proven to be that realistic in the past it may be one solution in the short term to get to net zero. Virtually impossible to do that with a conventional car, the equipment doesn't scale well.

And yes this does mean fossil hydrogen could be clean - that's the so-called blue hydrogen that Shell, et al., are trying to push.

[MadScientist]

It’s already here now in many markets here there’s a good market  in second hand EVs. So the lower paid can do as they always did ie buy used , that will only increase as EVs age you can get a perfectly good leaf for 9k for example

The solution is the removal of dino juice cats tuats what the EU countries are aiming at. It’s a perfectly acceptable target and over the NEXT 20  years BEVS will rise to the challenge

There’s no intrinsic   reason to keep ice cars no more then we don’t make steam engines anymore. Simply cause some people may want them is not a reason to change public  policy that these are environmentally damaging , some people want to smoke in pubs we now don’t allow that either

Ice is dead baby !!

Says the man with no country

Even in Canada, with high gas prices, the top sellers are gas guzzling big vehicles. I personally do not know how they can afford the gasoline,
And their electricity is mostly Hydro
I think we have a long way to go on getting really good low emission cars on the road. Most places on earth use carbon to make electricity
Electric vehicles are just changing the point where emissions occur.
We need better and more electric generating, transmission and storage (batteries are still not good enough)
It would be nice to have a battery vehicle that meets our needs.

Just my opinion

Well, of course. I've been saying this all along too.

But we're just tackling this problem as we have pretty much always tackled anything: shitting all over the place first, and then maybe trying to fix it much later, when it's close to too late, and making as many people suffer as possible along the way. Great stuff.

This is patently false the electricity sector is making huge strides in renewables with increasing percentages of power coming from renewables and plans in place to dramatically increase that.

[MadScientist]

WRT emissions location:  obviously, this does not impact total greenhouse gas emission, but shifting the points of emission can be useful for reducing near-surface levels of air pollution in populated areas, to the benefit of health.

Power plants are also a good target for carbon capture, so even if you have EVs powered by coal/nat gas it can be a winner.

While I'm not a big fan of carbon capture storage (CCS) because it's not really proven to be that realistic in the past it may be one solution in the short term to get to net zero. Virtually impossible to do that with a conventional car, the equipment doesn't scale well.

And yes this does mean fossil hydrogen could be clean - that's the so-called blue hydrogen that Shell, et al., are trying to push.

Most European countries are making enormous investments in renewable grid generation or like France rolling the nuclear option. What’s clear is the regulators see ending most hydrocarbon based grid generation as a goal and it looks largely achievable. Hence along side the car transistion power generation will also phase out hydrocarbon usage

[Red Squirrel]

To me the cost is what makes it unfeasible.  They keep going up in price and this is only going to continue as they deplete the supply of minerals needed for batteries.  Most people are not going to be able to afford or justify an EV.

I'd love an EV truck but every time I look at them they went up by like 10 grand. The F150 is now around 90k for the base model after you account for taxes.   Even if I account for fuel savings it's still more money than I'll ever spend with my gas truck which I got for 14k. 

Maybe in 10-20 years from now when there are more EVs in the used market I would consider buying a used one, but I'd be worried I end up having to change out the battery and spend like 30 grand doing that.  Shops don't really want to work on these including the dealers themselves, so rather than fix an issue with the battery they just want to replace the whole thing.  The industry is treating these like ipads basically.  Warranty runs out and you're on your own.  At least with gas vehicles dealerships and 3rd party shops are willing to actually open the hood and fix individual parts instead of telling you that you need a new engine.

At some point I do want to get setup with a proper shop and I might experiment with doing an EV swap. One advantage to that as well is no gimmicks, like cloud based stuff or app based stuff, it would be kept simple and be 100% local.   Though the issue is getting the battery cells.  There just are not a lot of legit places to get them from here in Canada.

You’re making the classic mistake of projecting the status who forward

Here we seeing all the dealers geared up to service BEVs , the second tier is starting to follow suit ,third party battery replacement ships are opening.

As for battery life by 6 year old Leaf with 375,000 km remains usable with 100 mile range even though it’s lost 20% of capacity. It’s second hand value is better then an equivalent small ICE

AS BEVS predominate the service industry will change to support then we already seeing third party battery replacement shops etc and in my case Nissan BEV dealers will sell you replacement Nissan certified cells ( at a price of course )

In the winter via the app my BEV warns thd cabin, defrosts the windows and is all comfy in comparison to my frozen ice van. The Bev is way nicer to drive , faster , and has more creature comforts

Ideally the battery will last long, but defects can and do happen, so it is a bit concerning hearing stories of Tesla wanting to swap out the entire pack over 1 cell. There are some garages that will do work on them but they are far and few between.

The app stuff I'm not a big fan of either.  Anything that relies on a phone has planned obsolescence built in.  I just hope that they at very least make it so all the basic functions of the car can be done without a phone. 

I do like the idea behind EVs and I want one, but there's still lot of iffy things which I hope get solved.  I do like the idea of being able to get into a warm car without burning gas though. Just hope they don't force you to use an app for that since not everyone has or wants a smart phone with stock OS and it shouldn't be a requirement.

[tom66]

I do like the idea behind EVs and I want one, but there's still lot of iffy things which I hope get solved.  I do like the idea of being able to get into a warm car without burning gas though. Just hope they don't force you to use an app for that since not everyone has or wants a smart phone with stock OS and it shouldn't be a requirement.

With my car you can either do it via an app or set a timer on the infotainment unit.

I would like if it worked via a button on the remote, too. 

[SiliconWizard]

Speaking of naturally growing own transportation. Why not consider going back to horse riding? Horse-drawn carriage is as close to a true zero emissions transportation as it can get. Cross country travel on horses would be as fast as in future economic BEVs - you ride 35 miles, then stay in a motel overnight while horses recharge.

I am sure some people would prefer natural smell of horse manure to the smell of exhaust from a Euro 7 compliant ICE vehicle, while being stuck in a traffic jam.

Definitely sounds like a plan!

[themadhippy]

Speaking of naturally growing own transportation. Why not consider going back to horse riding? Horse-drawn carriage is as close to a true zero emissions transportation as it can get. Cross country travel on horses would be as fast as in future economic BEVs - you ride 35 miles, then stay in a motel overnight while horses recharg

And if it breaks down in the middle of nowhere theres less chance of starvation with a ready source of shergar burgers and steaks

[SiliconWizard]

Doesn't look compatible with the current politics though, horses emit CO2 and a lot of methane on top of it. And that wouldn't please vegans either.

[tom66]

Doesn't look compatible with the current politics though, horses emit CO2 and a lot of methane on top of it. And that wouldn't please vegans either.

Range anxiety too!  Only 50 miles to a haybale and would you believe it, the en-route charging infrastructure is atrocious...

[tggzzz]

Doesn't look compatible with the current politics though, horses emit CO2 and a lot of methane on top of it. And that wouldn't please vegans either.

Range anxiety too!  Only 50 miles to a haybale and would you believe it, the en-route charging infrastructure is atrocious...

But the changing infrastructure is was fit for purpose (and could be very fast), provided Hobson's Choice was acceptable.

[vad]

Doesn't look compatible with the current politics though, horses emit CO2 and a lot of methane on top of it. And that wouldn't please vegans either.

That carbon comes from renewable sources (horses do not drink dino juice, neither they eat coal), and is immediately captured in manure.

[vad]

Doesn't look compatible with the current politics though, horses emit CO2 and a lot of methane on top of it. And that wouldn't please vegans either.

Range anxiety too!  Only 50 miles to a haybale and would you believe it, the en-route charging infrastructure is atrocious...

New BEV at Kia Rio price range would have under 50 miles range anyway. Used Tesla at that price point would probably have 50 miles range too, due to deteriorating battery capacity.

[Monkeh]

Doesn't look compatible with the current politics though, horses emit CO2 and a lot of methane on top of it. And that wouldn't please vegans either.

Range anxiety too!  Only 50 miles to a haybale and would you believe it, the en-route charging infrastructure is atrocious...

New BEV at Kia Rio price range would have under 50 miles range anyway. Used Tesla at that price point would probably have 50 miles range too, due to deteriorating battery capacity.

And yet there's already BEVs on the market with more than double that range at that price point, if not lower. Smaller than a Rio, admittedly, but that's more to do with the Rio not being that small or cheap.

[MadScientist]

Speaking of naturally growing own transportation. Why not consider going back to horse riding? Horse-drawn carriage is as close to a true zero emissions transportation as it can get. Cross country travel on horses would be as fast as in future economic BEVs - you ride 35 miles, then stay in a motel overnight while horses recharge.

I am sure some people would prefer natural smell of horse manure to the smell of exhaust from a Euro 7 compliant ICE vehicle, while being stuck in a traffic jam.

Definitely sounds like a plan!

The flying car will come first —😁

[MadScientist]

Doesn't look compatible with the current politics though, horses emit CO2 and a lot of methane on top of it. And that wouldn't please vegans either.

That carbon comes from renewable sources (horses do not drink dino juice, neither they eat coal), and is immediately captured in manure.

When there get old Iceland will sell them as frozen burgers