EV-based road transportation is not viable

[nctnico]

Actually hydrogen fuel cell cars (FCEVs) already have a battery. This is for regenerative braking and to get a more even load on the fuel cell. In theory you could add a plug to a hydrogen fuel cell car but it isn't worth it since the electricity you charge it with will be made from hydrogen (from energy storage) in many places anyway. An additional downside is that you'd need a much bigger battery to get any sort of sensible range. All in all it doesn't make much sense to have a plug on a hydrogen fuel cell car. What would be interesting is to put a solar panel on the roof of any car with a battery though. It doesn't add much in terms of energy for an individual car, but in the large scheme of things, it adds a significant amount of electricity generation right where you need a lot of power without taking space away from areas where you can install solar panels.

[james_s]

Because you scale capacity to the maximum current draw in the worst case scenario. It does not make sense to install two 70A fast chargers and keep a 200A service. Unless it is a dedicated service into your garage only, and the rest of the house - air conditioners, electric ranges, tumble dryer, etc. are powered from a different 200A service.

That is total nonsense. Nobody with any sense would do that. It's typical to have circuits in the house that add up to significantly more than the capacity of the main breaker, homes aren't wired to support every single electrical item in the home being turned on full power all at the same time. You're just making up bizarre edge cases as reasons that EVs won't work, despite the inconvenient fact that they work just fine for lots of people, including people with multiple cars that charge from home. Nobody installs a separate dedicated circuit for their garage, that's absurd, it's very easy to set up the chargers to account for the amount of power available. Most of the time there is no reason to charge at anywhere near the maximum rate, you've got all night, what's the rush?

[james_s]

I have a friend who commutes from New Hampshire to Boston 150 miles round trip every day. Can’t really tell if he is a typical commuter. But considering the number of cars with NH license plates that I see on the roads during peak hours, I do not think my friend is alone.

That's an insane commute, but an EV is an absolute no-brainer for that friend, with that much driving it would pay for itself in savings. I drive so little that despite being a fan of EVs it makes no sense for me to buy one, I drive maybe 300 miles a month on average these days.

[james_s]

Automakers are going to have to figure out how to integrate their legacy ICE styling in with EVs that need much less cooling.  BMW has clearly missed the mark;  the i3 looked better to me (but even then that wasn't a great looking car.)  ID.3 is also a bit ugly.  What happened to just putting an electric motor and battery in a normal car?  I'd love a Golf with a 60kWh battery but the only choice is ID.3.  Which is not hideous but compared to the Mk7 Golf is not a good look.

Modern cars are universally hideous in my mind, I don't care for the Tesla styling but with everything else so ugly it actually starts to look ok. Even ICE cars don't need the absurdly large grills that are in fashion right now. If you look closely you'll see that the actual air intake is usually a small rectangular opening in the lower middle of the grill, the rest of the expanse is fake. It looks totally stupid IMO, grills just keep getting bigger and bigger.

[nctnico]

Because you scale capacity to the maximum current draw in the worst case scenario. It does not make sense to install two 70A fast chargers and keep a 200A service. Unless it is a dedicated service into your garage only, and the rest of the house - air conditioners, electric ranges, tumble dryer, etc. are powered from a different 200A service.

 Most of the time there is no reason to charge at anywhere near the maximum rate, you've got all night, what's the rush?

Efficiency. In Germany they did some testing with mains outlet chargers for various BEVs and found out that charging from a regular outlet can result in losses over 25%. Keep in mind that the BEV must be 'on' while charging, the charger has a limited efficiency and then there are wiring losses as well.

[james_s]

Efficiency. In Germany they did some testing with mains outlet chargers for various BEVs and found out that charging from a regular outlet can result in losses over 25%. Keep in mind that the BEV must be 'on' while charging, the charger has a limited efficiency and then there are wiring losses as well.

Nonsense, if the efficiency is dropping that far at low charging power then that is just piss poor engineering. I can't speak for others but there is no large efficiency drop when charging a Tesla from 120V at 13A and that is very low. When I said "low" current my example was 20A 240V, well within the capacity of a typical house to deal with the 3 cars charging at once edge case.

[vad]

That's an insane commute, but an EV is an absolute no-brainer for that friend, with that much driving it would pay for itself in savings. I drive so little that despite being a fan of EVs it makes no sense for me to buy one, I drive maybe 300 miles a month on average these days.

I do not think he will ever give up RAM 1500. But, since he is going solar this year, maybe he can change his mind…

[Monkeh]

That's an insane commute, but an EV is an absolute no-brainer for that friend, with that much driving it would pay for itself in savings. I drive so little that despite being a fan of EVs it makes no sense for me to buy one, I drive maybe 300 miles a month on average these days.

I do not think he will ever give up RAM 1500. But, since he is going solar this year, maybe he can change his mind…

He commutes in a RAM? Yeah, there's no saving him.

[tautech]

I suspect the heyday of private automobile is over avd increasingltbit will be seen as frivolous unless absolutely necvessaey

And what planet are you from ? 

Take a 100km drive into the country and discover what choices there are other than a privately owned car. Hint: zip !

[Monkeh]

I suspect the heyday of private automobile is over avd increasingltbit will be seen as frivolous unless absolutely necvessaey

And what planet are you from ? 

Take a 100km drive into the country and discover what choices there are other than a privately owned car. Hint: zip !

Well, that's when one becomes necessary. For those who live and work in cities and towns, they're often only made necessary by intentional crippling of other infrastructure.

[themadhippy]

When I said "low" current my example was 20A 240V, well within the capacity of a typical house to deal with the 3 cars charging at once edge case.

unless  your incoming supply is only  60A

[vad]

He commutes in a RAM? Yeah, there's no saving him.

Yes

[nctnico]

Efficiency. In Germany they did some testing with mains outlet chargers for various BEVs and found out that charging from a regular outlet can result in losses over 25%. Keep in mind that the BEV must be 'on' while charging, the charger has a limited efficiency and then there are wiring losses as well.

Nonsense, if the efficiency is dropping that far at low charging power then that is just piss poor engineering. I can't speak for others but there is no large efficiency drop when charging a Tesla from 120V at 13A and that is very low. When I said "low" current my example was 20A 240V, well within the capacity of a typical house to deal with the 3 cars charging at once edge case.

Just look it up instead of dismissing it off the bat. The loss when charging a Renault Zoe can be as high as 30% at low temperatures.

[Leeima]

While it's true that ICE cars are not going anywhere any time soon, EVs have already shown to be practical for millions of people. I know at least half a dozen people that drive them, several have had them for quite a few years now.

It's always funny to me when I see someone predicting something will never work that has already been working for quite some time.

I only have a few issues with EVs
One is that I fear they will end up being class-divisive due to physical charging infrastructure etc
Another is the weight issue
The final one is probably just paranoia - and that's just a street of nose-to-tail cars setting ablaze with lithium fires. (Just thinking of the victoria tesla battery fire)

These have been brought up before so no need to go into detail

The fact that many people have EVs doesn't prove they work for all people or whether they are a viable.
It feels a bit premature for countries banning the sale of new ICE cars
I actually like EVs

Personally, I would like to see highspeed conveyer belt based transportation so there's no waiting. But that probably isn't the solution either. 

[bdunham7]

Just look it up instead of dismissing it off the bat. The loss when charging a Renault Zoe can be as high as 30% at low temperatures.

It is true that charging from an American 120V wall socket is slightly less efficient in many cases and if the temperature is below ~50F or so there is some fixed amount of power used to warm the batteries.  So outdoor slow charging in the winter may take a bit longer.  That doesn't have much to do with how many cars I can practically charge with "normal" electrical service (200A split-phase 240V).  And even if home charging can't meet all of your needs (say I have 4 housemates and we all drive for Uber...) you still have the option of an occasional trip to the fast charger for a quick zap.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Efficiency. In Germany they did some testing with mains outlet chargers for various BEVs and found out that charging from a regular outlet can result in losses over 25%. Keep in mind that the BEV must be 'on' while charging, the charger has a limited efficiency and then there are wiring losses as well.

Nonsense, if the efficiency is dropping that far at low charging power then that is just piss poor engineering. I can't speak for others but there is no large efficiency drop when charging a Tesla from 120V at 13A and that is very low. When I said "low" current my example was 20A 240V, well within the capacity of a typical house to deal with the 3 cars charging at once edge case.

Just look it up instead of dismissing it off the bat. The loss when charging a Renault Zoe can be as high as 30% at low temperatures.

the Zoe ( assuming we're taking about the ones with the motor-as-inductor charger) is a very atypical example, and has notoriously poor efficiency due to a number of factors, including the need for a massive filter to handle noise from the 43kw-capable charger.

However even those losses pale into insignificance compared to Hydrogen's typical 30% electron-to-wheel efficiency.

[james_s]

Just look it up instead of dismissing it off the bat. The loss when charging a Renault Zoe can be as high as 30% at low temperatures.

Then that specific car is crap. There are plenty of other EVs on the market that offer much better efficiencies. Even 30% loss though is nothing compared to the ~75% loss for ICE, and that's once you already have the fuel in the tank.

[tom66]

Efficiency. In Germany they did some testing with mains outlet chargers for various BEVs and found out that charging from a regular outlet can result in losses over 25%. Keep in mind that the BEV must be 'on' while charging, the charger has a limited efficiency and then there are wiring losses as well.

The only reason for this really is that the car has a fixed load of about 200W for the computers, pumps, BMS etc.  (This is really high for what is going on, but I think it's a legacy auto thing, when you had an ICE engine which was like 25% efficient you didn't care so much about this.  Now you care a lot more.)

If you charge at 2300W (230V 10A) then this is ~10% before you've even added the loss of the charger (3-10%) and battery (~1%). 

If you charge at 11000W then this loss is only ~2% so starts to become fairly negligible. 

At higher loads there is the additional cost of potentially needing the HVAC and cooling fan to run though.  Probably somewhere in the range of 3-5kW is most efficient.

Really the longer term solution is it should not need 200W to charge a battery, but probably requires the 12V system to be redesigned somewhat so the charging CAN bus doesn't mean that half the car's powertrain and modules also switch on.  (I'm looking at you, VW.  Why does the infotainment unit bus run while charging?)

[tautech]

I suspect the heyday of private automobile is over avd increasingltbit will be seen as frivolous unless absolutely necvessaey

And what planet are you from ? 

Take a 100km drive into the country and discover what choices there are other than a privately owned car. Hint: zip !

Well, that's when one becomes necessary. For those who live and work in cities and towns, they're often only made necessary by intentional crippling of other infrastructure.

Trouble is, everyone that lives rural faces this every day and must deal with the consequences of legislation from those only fit to shine the seat of a chair that have zip experience of the reality of rural life.

One only imagines they see us as peasants only fit to have a horse and cart. 

If everyone can't embrace the technology gains of the last century and the benefits they provide then we might as well turn the clock back 100 yrs when a trip to town now just 25 mins by car was once an all day affair for my grandparents with them arising before dawn to catch the horse and attach the buggy to travel 3 miles to catch the twice/day train and return on it which by that time was dark again.
Progress is such that the local train passenger service of 100 yrs ago is no running. 

In those years there were few busses even in town with the main mode of urban transport a bicycle....have we gone through all the gains in the last century to return to that ?

Adopt your darn EV's if they suit your needs but don't fucking force them on everyone as for many, they are not fit for purpose !

[james_s]

I don't think most EVs have such massive losses, certainly that can be reduced. My only concrete reference point is the Tesla model Y which gains 5 miles of range per hour while drawing 13A from a 120V receptacle so ~1.5kWh for 5 miles, 330Wh/mile. It's all kind of moot anyway though since service capacity is not going to limit anyone to a 120V 15A receptacle. Some people use that because it's what they have installed and it is adequate, but virtually any house can have a larger circuit installed. If the edge case is a requirement of 2 or even 3 EVs charging simultaneously, even in a very old house that has only a 100A 240V service it should generally be ok to allocate 50 amps to EV charging during the night, that's 25 amps each for 2 cars which is going to be adequate for almost all cases. Any house with a 3 car garage and anything built after about 1975 is going to have a 200A service which is adequate for 60-100+ amps for charging, that gives 20+ amps so ~5kW each, well over the point at which large losses are an issue. Requiring more power than that is going to be an extreme edge case, maybe somebody has a family of people that all drive hundreds of miles a day in separate cars but I've never known anyone that did that.

[nctnico]

Just look it up instead of dismissing it off the bat. The loss when charging a Renault Zoe can be as high as 30% at low temperatures.

Then that specific car is crap. There are plenty of other EVs on the market that offer much better efficiencies. Even 30% loss though is nothing compared to the ~75% loss for ICE, and that's once you already have the fuel in the tank.

Look at it in terms of financial loss per distance travelled. Efficiency from fuel is already offset in relative low cost.

[james_s]

Look at it in terms of financial loss per distance travelled. Efficiency from fuel is already offset in relative low cost.

On those terms there is no comparison at all, EV wins by a massive margin. Tesla Y at the 10.1c/kWh I pay, fillup around $10. Compare to a similar sized (but vastly inferior performance) SUV such as the Ford Explorer which claims 27mpg at current fuel prices of around $4.50/gal that's around $50 for the same 300 miles. That's 5 times the cost just for fuel, ignoring the much higher maintenance required. You can plug in your local energy prices for a comparison elsewhere.

If you want another comparison, calculate the hydrogen losses due to boil off, which is on top of the massive losses that occur creating and transporting the hydrogen.

[nctnico]

At the moment I'm paying nearly 80 eurocent per kWh over here... even my old gas guzzling car on gasoline is cheaper compared to a BEV.

[tom66]

At the moment I'm paying nearly 80 eurocent per kWh over here... even my old gas guzzling car on gasoline is cheaper compared to a BEV.

Yes, but that's not normal is it?  I don't know about the Dutch government whether they have subsidies on electricity or not, but around here it is 35p/kWh peak time, still cheaper than petrol, and in my off peak (which I only started in September of last year so it's not a legacy rate or anything) I pay 8.2p/kWh.  I do nearly all of my charging on that off peak time, cost per mile is around 2-3p.  Need to get over 60p/kWh for electricity to not make sense.

Energy prices are falling, so far it looks like the Putin blackmail has failed.

[nctnico]

At the moment I'm paying nearly 80 eurocent per kWh over here... even my old gas guzzling car on gasoline is cheaper compared to a BEV.

Yes, but that's not normal is it? 

Likely to last for at least this year. I ordered a bunch of new solar panels to put on the roof. They'll pay for themselves in less than 18 months. I don't see electricity prices going down to pre 2022 levels soon. Russian gas is much cheaper compared to importing LNG.