EV-based road transportation is not viable

[Watth]

It would be interesting to see what procedure is used regarding EVs (such as disconnecting batteries) for sea transport.

[Watth]

Nobody has leaf blowers around me and little cutting grass after sept and before march so it’s not an issue

Just as I thought, you live in some other reality.

Why? It's somehow the case for me too.

[tggzzz]

It would be interesting to see what procedure is used regarding EVs (such as disconnecting batteries) for sea transport.

Insurance companies are keeping a close watch on developments around EVs.

One example is https://www.zurich.co.uk/news-and-insight/the-insurance-considerations-for-electric-vehicles and that references https://www.zurich.co.uk/-/media/news-and-insight/documents/useful-documents/electric_vehicles_risk_topic.pdf

The latter includes...
EV Repair costs and timing
There are several aspects that contribute to the increased cost of repairs for EVs. Unique to EVs is that when any repair work is undertaken on one it is necessary to decommission the battery to ensure that the vehicle is safe to work on and this can take up to an hour.

[Watth]

It would be interesting to see what procedure is used regarding EVs (such as disconnecting batteries) for sea transport.

Insurance companies are keeping a close watch on developments around EVs.

One example is https://www.zurich.co.uk/news-and-insight/the-insurance-considerations-for-electric-vehicles and that references https://www.zurich.co.uk/-/media/news-and-insight/documents/useful-documents/electric_vehicles_risk_topic.pdf

The latter includes...
EV Repair costs and timing
There are several aspects that contribute to the increased cost of repairs for EVs. Unique to EVs is that when any repair work is undertaken on one it is necessary to decommission the battery to ensure that the vehicle is safe to work on and this can take up to an hour.

Renault told me that to justify their maintenance costs on my Zoé. Although Midas do it for cheaper. Who should we trust?
But my remark was more about preparing the vehicle for transport on ships.

[coppice]

Nobody has leaf blowers around me and little cutting grass after sept and before march so it’s not an issue

Just as I thought, you live in some other reality.

Other reality meaning a slightly different climate from you?

If you change September to October what was said pretty much applies here. I only see leaf blowers being used in places like public gardens. They are rare at residences.

[nctnico]

Maybe a hatch below each car to allow immediate ejection of the firey EV into the sea.  May produce disappointing results for multi-deck ferries.

I guess the question is how common is such a fire?  ICE or EV?  I would imagine in any case, it is a disaster; and 4x the water to extinguish it sounds bad, but either way, when surrounded by other vehicles full of fuel, oil and possibly battery packs, a fire on a sea ferry is really bad whatever the technology.  So a better route might be containing the fire for as long as possible and getting back to port sharpish.

Large numbers of BEVs have been shipped without issue. It’s not a general problem and less so as more LIFEPO4 batteries are being used

Not quite. Not so long ago a ship with a bunch of EVs on board caught fire and sunk. https://www.euronews.com/2022/03/01/massive-cargo-ship-carrying-electric-cars-sinks-in-atlantic-ocean-after-fire

[Watth]

[snip]
I'm not as smart as you about boating so I have to use language that I know. All I know is that if you pump water into a boat it sinks.

Its a shame however that I forgot that a few hours ago when I made the previous post.

Here have a youtube video:

If you put too much water, it will sink. Some ships with special uses adjust their height by filling with more or less water. For example Platform supply vessel. Now the question is about flowing water into the cargo bay without putting buoyancy in jeopardy, there could be some leeway about that.

[nctnico]

Balance on a ship is pretty important. Water sloshing around freely is killing for any form of balance. Also water ingress is not to be taken lightly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_Herald_of_Free_Enterprise

[fourfathom]

Balance on a ship is pretty important. Water sloshing around freely is killing for any form of balance. Also water ingress is not to be taken lightly.

  This whole tangent is pretty silly, but the Washington State car ferries (which, living on an island, I use a lot) have multiple firehoses located on all the car decks.  These boats have two levels of deck, and all car decks are designed so that water runs off through "scuppers" (holes in the side) and drains overboard.  ICE, hybrid, and BEVs are all welcome on board.  About the only type of vehicle not allowed are the big fuel-carrying tanker trucks -- these go by private barge/ferry.

[tggzzz]

It would be interesting to see what procedure is used regarding EVs (such as disconnecting batteries) for sea transport.

Insurance companies are keeping a close watch on developments around EVs.

One example is https://www.zurich.co.uk/news-and-insight/the-insurance-considerations-for-electric-vehicles and that references https://www.zurich.co.uk/-/media/news-and-insight/documents/useful-documents/electric_vehicles_risk_topic.pdf

The latter includes...
EV Repair costs and timing
There are several aspects that contribute to the increased cost of repairs for EVs. Unique to EVs is that when any repair work is undertaken on one it is necessary to decommission the battery to ensure that the vehicle is safe to work on and this can take up to an hour.

Renault told me that to justify their maintenance costs on my Zoé. Although Midas do it for cheaper. Who should we trust?
But my remark was more about preparing the vehicle for transport on ships.

I realise you were talking about preparing for ships.

"Trust" doesn't come into it; if you have to pay then you have to pay. It wouldn't surprise me if the cost depends on the vehicle. It sounds labour intensive, as if doing two vehicles takes two hours.

How much will delaying a ferry for an hour while the battery is "decommissioned" and "recommissioned" cost? Typically ferry stops are highly optimised for a quick turnaround, and any delay decomissioning and recommmissioning will put a spanner in their operations.

[RJSV]

Wow, "Service work must be proceeded by Battery disconnect / decommission...taking up to an hour".

   That is starting to edge into legal territory.
I can now imagine a new California LAW, prohibiting any'tinkering', or Saturday afternoon repairs / upgrades, unless QUALIFIED AND CERTIFIED automotive technician involved.
That's because you want your procedures and labor to be safe, not in the hands of, (gasp), some random fool, with a wrench.

[tom66]

There's no reason you should need to discharge the EV battery before travelling on a ship.  The precaution comes from the possibility of a thermal event if the battery is damaged in the workshop, there is a risk of fire.  That could happen in any way, cars fall off lifts for instance, or welding near a battery pack.  I can't see it reducing the risk of electrocution though.  Like any new technology, manufacturers will need to figure out the issues with servicing these vehicles.  But since most EV's only need a brake fluid flush every 50k and a tyre rotation/replacement now and then, there also won't be that much for the garages to do outside of repairs.

[rstofer]

Wow, "Service work must be proceeded by Battery disconnect / decommission...taking up to an hour".

   That is starting to edge into legal territory.
I can now imagine a new California LAW, prohibiting any'tinkering', or Saturday afternoon repairs / upgrades, unless QUALIFIED AND CERTIFIED automotive technician involved.
That's because you want your procedures and labor to be safe, not in the hands of, (gasp), some random fool, with a wrench.

In California, there is no equivalent requirement for ICE vehicles and I do seem to recall 'tinkering' with our Dodge Chargers for drag racing.  Strictly as a hobby, of course.

There are currently just 4 classes of license for technicians:  Smog Inspector, Smog Repair Technician, Brake Adjuster and Lamp Adjuster.

https://www.bar.ca.gov/industry/licensure-faq

Some states require annual inspection and require a certificate decal on the FRONT windshield thus precluding it being seen from the rear of the vehicle.  This provides all the cause necessary to stop a vehicle to see if their sticker is up to date.

That doesn't fly in California!

[tom66]

The requirement to battery disconnect is no different from having an empty fuel tank prior to having the fuel pump changed.

You do NOT need to discharge the HV system to change a bumper cover, or to change brake fluid or filters.  You do need to discharge and make safe the system if doing anything on the HV system (like a motor/inverter swap) or a major structural repair, involving welding near the battery for instance, due to the risk of starting a fire.

My PHEV did not require a HV disconnect after it had a rear end shunt, as it just required a bumper repair and respray.  (And it needed a second visit because they painted it with the wrong shade of blue.) 

[Lockon Stratos]

You are 10 years late with that criticism. It already happened, and it was viable after all. Sorry.

Further, some operators are installing substantial solar arrays to help further reduce the cost of charging their EV trucks.

Until charging gets taxed. Its not a question of "if" but "when". As for viability, well a 10 year old car needing a new battery that costs multiples of the cars current value says a lot of its non-existent viability.

[tom66]

Until charging gets taxed. Its not a question of "if" but "when". As for viability, well a 10 year old car needing a new battery that costs multiples of the cars current value says a lot of its non-existent viability.

Very difficult to imagine how you could tax charging, given you can charge from an ordinary wall outlet.  Existing public charging could be taxed (and is, in the UK) but not easy to tax private charging.

If there is going to be some tax, then I'd imagine road charging (tolls to enter city centres, or a per mile for certain roads.)  Whole road tolling seems unlikely and impractical unless you fit trackers to each car which is a privacy nightmare, or cover the countryside in CCTV, which is extremely expensive.

[tom66]

That's the most basic form of road charging.  It's easy enough to do in busy city centres when the only option you have is a given route (e.g. a toll bridge).  As the UK government discovered with the "M6 Toll", if an alternative exists that is nearly as fast (the non-toll M6) then people will preferably use that. 

[AVGresponding]

Simply put every BEV probably has a cellular connection. Should be a simple matter of taxing based upon the amount of kWh that the BEV consumes.

This would almost certainly contravene GDPR, and won't happen. The simplest way is to tax electricity at the point of use, and to charge more, the more is used, rather than discounting it for heavier users.

[2N3055]

Simply put every BEV probably has a cellular connection. Should be a simple matter of taxing based upon the amount of kWh that the BEV consumes.

This would almost certainly contravene GDPR, and won't happen. The simplest way is to tax electricity at the point of use, and to charge more, the more is used, rather than discounting it for heavier users.

GDPR has no connection with it. Also government is excerpted from GPDR when taxation and other order of business is in question. Their only responsibility to GDPR is not to publish data in public. They can use it internally whatever they want...

[SiliconWizard]

And taxes are the answer to everything else anyway, like 42.

[tom66]

This would almost certainly contravene GDPR, and won't happen. The simplest way is to tax electricity at the point of use, and to charge more, the more is used, rather than discounting it for heavier users.

And solar users pay no tax?  No, road charging is the only way to make it fair, on the basis of replacing fuel tax.

[tautech]

This would almost certainly contravene GDPR, and won't happen. The simplest way is to tax electricity at the point of use, and to charge more, the more is used, rather than discounting it for heavier users.

And solar users pay no tax?  No, road charging is the only way to make it fair, on the basis of replacing fuel tax.

Sure but there's only one fair way to do it. Forget about taxing power, that's just plain dumb as who knows where it's generated.
Instead institute a Road User Charge (RUC) system based on vehicle class, axle/tire count and Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) like we do in NZ for all diesel road vehicles.
Vehicles used offroad are exempt as the RUC taxes only apply to kilometers travelled on public roads. Still however some claim back system needs be added for some vehicle types that travel public roads between rural offroad jobs.
A fertiliser spreader truck is such an example.

With a properly constructed RUC system levies can be properly assigned to the classes of vehicle that subjects the roading network to the most wear and tear for them each to contribute X$/1000km travelled based on odometer or hubometer readings.....which reminds me, ours are increasing at midnight tonight so better get a few 1000 more.

[nctnico]

This would almost certainly contravene GDPR, and won't happen. The simplest way is to tax electricity at the point of use, and to charge more, the more is used, rather than discounting it for heavier users.

And solar users pay no tax?  No, road charging is the only way to make it fair, on the basis of replacing fuel tax.

Yep. In the NL there are also plans to tax per distance travelled. But the problem is that the NL is a small country and there is a significant number of people that drive significant distances outside the country.

[themadhippy]

or cover the countryside in CCTV, which is extremely expensive.

shouldn't cost much in the uk,every were you look there seems to be a bugger watching you

[tszaboo]

Until charging gets taxed. Its not a question of "if" but "when". As for viability, well a 10 year old car needing a new battery that costs multiples of the cars current value says a lot of its non-existent viability.

Very difficult to imagine how you could tax charging, given you can charge from an ordinary wall outlet.  Existing public charging could be taxed (and is, in the UK) but not easy to tax private charging.

If there is going to be some tax, then I'd imagine road charging (tolls to enter city centres, or a per mile for certain roads.)  Whole road tolling seems unlikely and impractical unless you fit trackers to each car which is a privacy nightmare, or cover the countryside in CCTV, which is extremely expensive.

Oh you can just charge those rich folks in the city, who don't have their own driveway. I think most of us could get behind that.
Congestion charge, and public charger charge, parking charge, bridge charge, insurance, charging insurance, tax on insurance, insurance on tax on insurance, and interest rate on charging network ppp loan. But only in the big smoke, plus the street where Boris Johnson lives.