Author Topic: EV-based road transportation is not viable  (Read 88691 times)

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Offline tom66

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Re: EV-based road transportation is not viable
« Reply #1050 on: February 20, 2023, 10:44:25 pm »
Yes, I agree with nctnico.  Modern high pressure hydrogen systems are pretty safe.  The Mirai has a hydrogen leak detector and the most typical failure of a hydrogen tank would be a pinhole leak or a leaking valve, which would be readily detected by the sensor and alert occupants.  The bigger risks are filling stations which have to store hydrogen on site in compressed form, because it isn't usually produced on demand.  But even those are probably little more risk than propane tanks which are commonplace and the hazards are well understood - just position them well away from anything that could easily hit them and open sources of ignition.

For a train, the biggest risk is a derailment. You could probably reduce the risk of a hazardous hydrogen leak by placing the tank towards the rear of the vehicle.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: EV-based road transportation is not viable
« Reply #1051 on: February 20, 2023, 11:01:30 pm »
Also I would have thought if hydrogen did have an application then train power would be a pretty good one - size of batteries vs a large hydrogen tank in place of diesel engine - but tank then needs to be sufficient to run for at least a significant part of the journey if the assumption is refilling hydrogen at a train station is not safe enough or too inconvenient.  (Diesel trains aren't refuelled at stations, either.)

Liquid hydrogen being transported on trains through towns?
Again: hydrogen isn't transported in liquid form. Only in gas form under high pressure. But it is not unsafer compared to any other fuel as it will also require oxygen to burn.

In terms of burning, yes. But there is also substantial energy stored when it is compressed, and if the container is punctured or a pipe severed, the pressure will make the gas escape in a jet. That might have different consequences to a puddle of diesel.

If you have solid references to what happens, I'm interested.

Quote
I see people mentioning the Hindenburg: if you read a bit more about that accident you'll learn that the outer hull was made from extremely flammable material. Like a piece of cloth drenched in gasoline. It is not the hydrogen that caught fire, but the outer hull.

Indeed, but in such cases the perception of danger is important. Greenpeace knows that all too well :(

Recently conspiracy theorists and propagandists have learned how to use social media to spread their messages, often attached to "don't trust the experts, they are lying to you" statements. That complicates discussions, as evidenced by recent events in the UK and US.

Quote
There is so much nitwitting going around. Last week I watched a documentary about Chernobyl. One of the interesting conclusions was that the huge increase of life threatening cancers (as predicted by Greenpeace et al) didn't happen.

Greenpeace has always been a bunch of twits that are prepared to use disreputable "explanations" and means to further their goals. Others are more reputable.

As to the number of cancers, I wouldn't trust any official figures from Russia or Belarus.

Covid has vividly shown how difficult it is to give accurate statistics for cause of death; the only statistic that is reliable is "excess mortality". Given that outside Belarus/Russia the radiation was much lower, it is to be expected that deaths "due to Chernobyl" can't be distinguished from other deaths. Hells teeth, there are some houses in towns near me where the radon causes as many lung cancers as smoking 20 fags/day! And then there's all the radiation emitted by coal burning power stations!

Certainly Chernobyl did cause noticable increases in radiation. It was only in the past few years that sheep in North Wales have been allowed back into the food chain. The radiation in Lapland was also of concern; I don't know what precautions were taken w.r.t. reindeer. In the aftermath of Chernobyl I remember once seeing a TV programme that showed a map of the radiation levels in the UK, and noting how the fallout from Chernobyl had made a beeline to Sellafield!
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: EV-based road transportation is not viable
« Reply #1052 on: February 20, 2023, 11:16:36 pm »
Yes, I agree with nctnico.  Modern high pressure hydrogen systems are pretty safe.  The Mirai has a hydrogen leak detector and the most typical failure of a hydrogen tank would be a pinhole leak or a leaking valve, which would be readily detected by the sensor and alert occupants.  The bigger risks are filling stations which have to store hydrogen on site in compressed form, because it isn't usually produced on demand.  But even those are probably little more risk than propane tanks which are commonplace and the hazards are well understood - just position them well away from anything that could easily hit them and open sources of ignition.

Er, no. Let's avoid using adjectives and look at the numbers...

Hydrogen is stored at 700bar/70MPa https://www.thechemicalengineer.com/features/hydrogen-in-vehicular-transport/
LPG release valves are at 25bar https://www.elgas.com.au/blog/1969-how-much-pressure-is-in-lpg-propane-cylinders-in-what-state/

700:25 is a good example of why "numbers not adjectives" is a good motto.

Quote
For a train, the biggest risk is a derailment. You could probably reduce the risk of a hazardous hydrogen leak by placing the tank towards the rear of the vehicle.

Or being rear-ended, or rear-ending.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline tautech

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Re: EV-based road transportation is not viable
« Reply #1053 on: February 20, 2023, 11:31:35 pm »
For a train, the biggest risk is a derailment. You could probably reduce the risk of a hazardous hydrogen leak by placing the tank towards the rear of the vehicle.

Or being rear-ended, or rear-ending.
The same concerns have been aired for decades about CNG powered vehicles.
History has shown us it's no more unsafe than liquid fueled vehicles.
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Online PlainName

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Re: EV-based road transportation is not viable
« Reply #1054 on: February 20, 2023, 11:49:15 pm »
Quote
One of the interesting conclusions was that the huge increase of life threatening cancers (as predicted by Greenpeace et al) didn't happen.

Perhaps because everyone got evacuated?

I recall a documentary some time ago that postulated that some level of radiation was better than no, or low, level since it triggers the body's repair mechanism.
 

Online Marco

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Re: EV-based road transportation is not viable
« Reply #1055 on: February 20, 2023, 11:54:12 pm »
Again: hydrogen isn't transported in liquid form.

Dunno about trains, but a simple google search shows companies making truck trailers ... someone must be buying them.

https://www.chartindustries.com/Products/Cryogenic-Transport-Trailers
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: EV-based road transportation is not viable
« Reply #1056 on: February 21, 2023, 12:00:49 am »
For a train, the biggest risk is a derailment. You could probably reduce the risk of a hazardous hydrogen leak by placing the tank towards the rear of the vehicle.

Or being rear-ended, or rear-ending.
The same concerns have been aired for decades about CNG powered vehicles.
History has shown us it's no more unsafe than liquid fueled vehicles.

Hydrogen 700 bar. LPG 25 bar. That's a significant difference.

See earlier post for refs.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Offline tautech

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Re: EV-based road transportation is not viable
« Reply #1057 on: February 21, 2023, 01:32:53 am »
For a train, the biggest risk is a derailment. You could probably reduce the risk of a hazardous hydrogen leak by placing the tank towards the rear of the vehicle.

Or being rear-ended, or rear-ending.
The same concerns have been aired for decades about CNG powered vehicles.
History has shown us it's no more unsafe than liquid fueled vehicles.

Hydrogen 700 bar. LPG 25 bar. That's a significant difference.
CNG is NOT LPG !
https://www.diffen.com/difference/CNG_vs_LPG

~200 bar (~3000 PSI) is CNG tank pressure for automotive use.
It's primary disadvantage was low BTU in an ICE which translates to limited range.
LPG is better in many respects in an ICE.

Still, we had CNG and LPG powered cars in NZ for decades after the 70's oil shock.
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Offline Ice-Tea

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Re: EV-based road transportation is not viable
« Reply #1058 on: February 21, 2023, 09:52:28 am »
Flamability range:



Activation energy:




 
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Offline Miyuki

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Re: EV-based road transportation is not viable
« Reply #1059 on: February 21, 2023, 09:57:07 am »
For a train, the biggest risk is a derailment. You could probably reduce the risk of a hazardous hydrogen leak by placing the tank towards the rear of the vehicle.

Or being rear-ended, or rear-ending.
The same concerns have been aired for decades about CNG powered vehicles.
History has shown us it's no more unsafe than liquid fueled vehicles.

Hydrogen 700 bar. LPG 25 bar. That's a significant difference.
CNG is NOT LPG !
https://www.diffen.com/difference/CNG_vs_LPG

~200 bar (~3000 PSI) is CNG tank pressure for automotive use.
It's primary disadvantage was low BTU in an ICE which translates to limited range.
LPG is better in many respects in an ICE.

Still, we had CNG and LPG powered cars in NZ for decades after the 70's oil shock.
And modern CNG systems going to rise that pressure even further, with new vessels rated up to 450 bar
 

Offline tautech

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Re: EV-based road transportation is not viable
« Reply #1060 on: February 21, 2023, 10:01:14 am »
For a train, the biggest risk is a derailment. You could probably reduce the risk of a hazardous hydrogen leak by placing the tank towards the rear of the vehicle.

Or being rear-ended, or rear-ending.
The same concerns have been aired for decades about CNG powered vehicles.
History has shown us it's no more unsafe than liquid fueled vehicles.

Hydrogen 700 bar. LPG 25 bar. That's a significant difference.
CNG is NOT LPG !
https://www.diffen.com/difference/CNG_vs_LPG

~200 bar (~3000 PSI) is CNG tank pressure for automotive use.
It's primary disadvantage was low BTU in an ICE which translates to limited range.
LPG is better in many respects in an ICE.

Still, we had CNG and LPG powered cars in NZ for decades after the 70's oil shock.
And modern CNG systems going to rise that pressure even further, with new vessels rated up to 450 bar
Thanks, that's interesting as it will rekindle CNG in ICE in some parts where they have plenty of it.
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: EV-based road transportation is not viable
« Reply #1061 on: February 21, 2023, 11:15:48 am »
For a train, the biggest risk is a derailment. You could probably reduce the risk of a hazardous hydrogen leak by placing the tank towards the rear of the vehicle.

Or being rear-ended, or rear-ending.
The same concerns have been aired for decades about CNG powered vehicles.
History has shown us it's no more unsafe than liquid fueled vehicles.

Hydrogen 700 bar. LPG 25 bar. That's a significant difference.
CNG is NOT LPG !
https://www.diffen.com/difference/CNG_vs_LPG

~200 bar (~3000 PSI) is CNG tank pressure for automotive use.
It's primary disadvantage was low BTU in an ICE which translates to limited range.
LPG is better in many respects in an ICE.

Still, we had CNG and LPG powered cars in NZ for decades after the 70's oil shock.

I wasn't aware of that; thanks.

It seems there are some CNG filling stations in the UK.
If my count is right there are 29 of them, and 13 are open to the public.
https://www.glpautogas.info/en/cng-stations-united-kingdom.html

LPG is far more widely available, and based on limited old experience, relevant to cars. (In the 80s I saw a car transition between LPG and petrol while moving).

Hence, in the UK at least, there is plenty of CNG in the ground but CNG in vehicles is a rarity for reasons I don't know (but can guess).  I would hesitate to draw general conclusions about its characteristics if widely employed.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2023, 11:18:48 am by tggzzz »
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: EV-based road transportation is not viable
« Reply #1062 on: February 21, 2023, 11:20:30 am »
Flamability range:



Activation energy:



Useful comparisons. Thanks.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Online nctnico

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Re: EV-based road transportation is not viable
« Reply #1063 on: February 21, 2023, 12:19:23 pm »
Flamability range:


Activation energy:


Useful comparisons. Thanks.
It is not at all. Just more fear mongering. Hydrogen is very light so it will move up quickly (out of the building) where gasoline, natural gas and LPG vapours will sink forming a blanket. So the chance you'll actually get an explosion or fire from hydrogen is far lower. Putting things further into perspective: you'll need a fairly small space to achieve a flammable hydrogen mixture. With 5kg (typical for a hydrogen car) of hydrogen you'll need less than 6 parking spaces worth of air volume. All in all a hydrogen leak from a car is far less of a problem compared to a car leaking CNG, LPG or gasoline.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2023, 12:21:44 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: EV-based road transportation is not viable
« Reply #1064 on: February 21, 2023, 12:28:02 pm »
Flamability range:


Activation energy:


Useful comparisons. Thanks.
It is not at all. Just more fear mongering. Hydrogen is very light so it will move up quickly (out of the building) where gasoline, natural gas and LPG vapours will sink forming a blanket. So the chance you'll actually get an explosion or fire from hydrogen is far lower. Putting things further into perspective: you'll need a fairly small space to achieve a flammable hydrogen mixture. With 5kg (typical for a hydrogen car) of hydrogen you'll need less than 6 parking spaces worth of air volume. All in all a hydrogen leak from a car is far less of a problem compared to a car leaking CNG, LPG or gasoline.

Nobody claimed it is the whole story.
Nobody claimed it is the only story.

Nonetheless, it is a useful quantitative starting point for stories.
And a better starting point than adjectives.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2023, 12:30:12 pm by tggzzz »
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline Ice-Tea

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Re: EV-based road transportation is not viable
« Reply #1065 on: February 21, 2023, 12:42:21 pm »
Flamability range:


Activation energy:


Useful comparisons. Thanks.
It is not at all. Just more fear mongering. Hydrogen is very light so it will move up quickly (out of the building) where gasoline, natural gas and LPG vapours will sink forming a blanket. So the chance you'll actually get an explosion or fire from hydrogen is far lower. Putting things further into perspective: you'll need a fairly small space to achieve a flammable hydrogen mixture. With 5kg (typical for a hydrogen car) of hydrogen you'll need less than 6 parking spaces worth of air volume. All in all a hydrogen leak from a car is far less of a problem compared to a car leaking CNG, LPG or gasoline.

Natural gas is also lighter than air.

That said, as we're exchanging stories: I did a training about gas bunkering etc. The teacher stated, quite bluntly, that of the many types of gas carriers/vessels/tanks he had been involved with only hydrogen stuff scared him.

But sure. Just dismiss it as "fear mongering".

Online nctnico

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Re: EV-based road transportation is not viable
« Reply #1066 on: February 21, 2023, 01:10:13 pm »
A cargo ship filled with hydrogen is something totally different compared to a car or a train carrying a relatively small amount as fuel. If you go onto an oil platform you'll be subjected to all kinds of safety measures & training requirements while you are basically handling the same stuff at a gas station.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: EV-based road transportation is not viable
« Reply #1067 on: February 21, 2023, 01:12:02 pm »
At least one hydrogen filling plant has exploded in the past:
https://driving.ca/auto-news/news/hyundai-toyota-pause-fuel-cell-sales-over-explosion-in-norway

Though certainly not enough data to draw a conclusion over safety with this one event.

Two were injured when "their airbags went off" - I guess it could have triggered the crash sensor for a car but a bit odd as I had thought those only work when the vehicle is in motion.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: EV-based road transportation is not viable
« Reply #1068 on: February 21, 2023, 01:21:06 pm »
At least one hydrogen filling plant has exploded in the past:
https://driving.ca/auto-news/news/hyundai-toyota-pause-fuel-cell-sales-over-explosion-in-norway

Though certainly not enough data to draw a conclusion over safety with this one event.

Two were injured when "their airbags went off" - I guess it could have triggered the crash sensor for a car but a bit odd as I had thought those only work when the vehicle is in motion.

Other guesses:
  • you need airbags to activate if you are stationary and someone hits you at high speed
  • "acceleration" setting off a gasbag can have the sensor embedded in the gasbag module, whereas "velocity" requires an external sensor and hence extra failure modes
I imagine the latter's failure modes involved with emergency detonators is more defining.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline tom66

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Re: EV-based road transportation is not viable
« Reply #1069 on: February 21, 2023, 01:27:47 pm »
Indeed, side impact detection on cars is usually via an air pressure sensor in the door, rather than an accelerometer.  These could have been cars driving past the plant at the time, too, I realise it's not clear if they were actually stationary or not.
 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: EV-based road transportation is not viable
« Reply #1070 on: February 21, 2023, 02:11:40 pm »
ev kick ass, ICE feels like driving an accordian :-DD
 

Online tszaboo

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Re: EV-based road transportation is not viable
« Reply #1071 on: February 21, 2023, 02:31:29 pm »
Flamability range:



Activation energy:


Yeah, people who are not into this field don't realize this. You can store enough energy in a 0201 capacitor, that shorting out this capacitor would create a tiny spark that can set hydrogen on fire. It's very very explosive, odorless, and the storage conditions are crazy compared to propane for example.
It can literally go through steel for example due to the small atoms, and crack it in the process (called hydrogen embrittlement). When they talk about adding it to regular district heating, I really hope they know what they are doing, because it would be a disaster, if pipes of the gas network would wear out and break.
 

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Re: EV-based road transportation is not viable
« Reply #1072 on: February 21, 2023, 02:34:42 pm »
Quote
When they talk about adding it to regular district heating, I really hope they know what they are doing,
we will be finding out in a couple of years time if british gas know what there doing .
 

Offline Ice-Tea

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Re: EV-based road transportation is not viable
« Reply #1073 on: February 21, 2023, 02:53:42 pm »
Quote
When they talk about adding it to regular district heating, I really hope they know what they are doing,
we will be finding out in a couple of years time if british gas know what there doing .

They don't.
 
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Offline tom66

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Re: EV-based road transportation is not viable
« Reply #1074 on: February 21, 2023, 03:48:28 pm »
Good diagram.  But, does it account for the difficulty in insulating UK homes to support heat pumps?  Having embarked upon the process of insulating our 1930's detached home, it is definitely not a trivial process usually requiring bespoke techniques for each property.
 


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