EU Hydrogen economy/power scam

[wraper]

EU running Hydrogen economy/power scam while building even more "green" hydrogen ready natural gas power plants, as if natural gas is not expensive enough here already  .

Communication that sets out a vision for a roadmap to create a framework for an alliance that will develop an agenda

[SiliconWizard]

Yes, just let me know one thing from the EU that is not dumb and a scam, though, I'm still looking.

[nctnico]

Just another random Youtube video showing a person rambling on about a subject  Yeah, the truth is out there on Youtube 

Just face it: hydrogen is going to be the new oil. It has long been established that for energy storage lasting for more than a couple of hours, hydrogen is cheaper compared to a battery. And the reason is really easy to understand: a battery is 100% filled with materials. A hydrogen storage vessel OTOH is empty (bonus points for storage in salt caverns). Storage is the key element the makers of the video have obviously missed but storage is the main factor which makes hydrogen so suitable as a replacement for oil.

[wraper]

Just another random Youtube video showing a person rambling on about a subject  Yeah, the truth is out there on Youtube 

Just face it: hydrogen is going to be the new oil. It has long been established that for energy storage lasting for more than a couple of hours, hydrogen is cheaper compared to a battery. And the reason is really easy to understand: a battery is 100% filled with materials. A hydrogen storage vessel OTOH is empty (bonus points for storage in salt caverns).

AFAIK it's only been established as a waste of money and pollutant (steam methane reforming) when it comes to anything when it's used as energy source/storage.

hydrogen is cheaper compared to a battery.

Wasting 70% of energy is not cheap by any means.

[nctnico]

You missed the part where hydrogen is being made from wind & solar. Large electrolyser plants are being build as we write. Hydrogen is going to happen; it is that simple. First for energy intensive manufacturing like steel mills and chemical plants. Later on (10 to 20 years) for electricity storage and transport.

And don't make the dumb mistake of thinking in terms of efficiency. If that reasoning would work, we wouldn't be powering cars from oil. Or burn coal to make electricity.

[wraper]

You missed the part where hydrogen is being made from wind & solar. Large electrolyser plants are being build as we write. Hydrogen is going to happen; it is that simple.

Wind and solar are so cheap that you surely can economically waste 70% of produced energy. Lets build 3x larger solar power plant so we can use that energy at night 

[nctnico]

You missed the part where hydrogen is being made from wind & solar. Large electrolyser plants are being build as we write. Hydrogen is going to happen; it is that simple.

Wind and solar are so cheap that you surely can economically waste 70% of produced energy. Lets build 3x larger solar power plant so we can use that energy at night 

Where is your storage? It is all about storage. And more importantly, cost of storage. Also, a solar panel in the Sahara receives twice the amount of energy from the sun and has no seasonal and very little  weather dependant output. Hydrogen is perfect as a storage and transport medium. But this has been debated before and proper reports have been linked to; the real world has chosen to use hydrogen and has started deploying the infrastructure a long time ago.

[wraper]

Hydrogen is perfect as a storage and transport medium. But this has been debated before and proper reports have been linked to.

Hydrogen is an absolute hell to store and transport. Very low density, leaks through everything, embrittles materials.

[Stray Electron]

Hydrogen is perfect as a storage and transport medium. But this has been debated before and proper reports have been linked to.

Hydrogen is an absolute hell to store and transport. Very low density, leaks through everything, embrittles materials.

  And flammable as all hell!  Anybody outside of the US remember the Hindenburg?  https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Hindenburg+disaster+Airship+fire%2C+6+May+1937&ia=images&iax=images

  And nobody is talking about the fact that in order realistically to store and transport hydrogen, it needs to be in the liquid form and stored at -423 degrees!  See Wikipedia <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_hydrogen>

   And while you're at it, look at the amount of energy that it takes to liquefy Hydrogen as compared to it's potential energy value! 

[wraper]

And flammable as all hell!  Anybody outside of the US remember the Hindenburg?  https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Hindenburg+disaster+Airship+fire%2C+6+May+1937&ia=images&iax=images=

And it was Hydrogen that blew up all four Fukushima reactor buildings.

[BrianHG]

Why not use Ammonia instead?  At room temperature, the storage pressure is only 25psi to 200psi, not 10,000psi like pure hydrogen.  25-200psi is compatible with propane and natural gas tanks and no hydrogen embrittlement, though it is corrosive.  Ammonia can be burned in a specialized ICE engine as well as be used in fuel cells while the exhaust is mostly water and nitrogen.  Again, not as perfect as pure hydrogen, but, the nitrogen in ammonia can be taken from the air when made, then released once burned.  Even Toyota is experimenting with an Ammonia direct engine.

[SiliconWizard]

Even Toyota is experimenting with an Ammonia direct engine.

Interesting.

Unfortunately, this "hydrogen" frenzy looks a lot more like just buzzwords and politics than pure engineering.

[BrianHG]

Even Toyota is experimenting with an Ammonia direct engine.

Interesting.

Unfortunately, this "hydrogen" frenzy looks a lot more like just buzzwords and politics than pure engineering.

Remember, Ammonia is just 3 Hydrogen atoms bonded to a central nitrogen atom.  IE: Ammonia is a hydrogen fuel without any carbon.  This chemically concentrates the hydrogen into a smaller volume with a lower pressure boiling point.  25psi for liquid Ammonia at room temp.  That's the same pressure as what's in your car tires to get ammonia all the way down to a liquid.  The issue is that the bond to nitrogen is strong and burning ammonia happens slowly at typical ICE piston compression levels with natural aspiration.

[SiliconWizard]

But in fuel cells, this should be less of a problem.

[BrianHG]

Yup, saw a video of a fuel cell design a few weeks back which uses a super-charger electric air compressor for the oxygen intake.  They seem to be quiet about the true efficiency gains unless you want to calculate the figures from their graphs.  There are a number of companies trying this stuff...

[Kleinstein]

For long term storage hydrogen is still one of the better options we have. There is some energy loss, but for the really long time scale, like seasonal it is not so much about efficiency but about the cost per energy stored. For the a few days there may be better alternatives with better efficiency. In the electrolytic cells the hydrogen can already be produced under quite some pressure, already 90% there for storrage in steel cylinders under pressure and likely more than for salt caverns.

It is only flammable / explosive if mixed with air. Keep the oxigen out and evething is fine. Compared to natural gas and similar it even has the advantage that if there is a leak it excapes up quite fast and if it burns the flame is emitting very little radiation to heat up things below. It essentially needs direct contact to the flame to ignite something with a clean hydrogen flame.

I am a bit sceptical about using hydrogen to make steel in the old way. There may be better electrochemical ways. The conversion to hydrogen still adds costs and losses. So unless you really need the storage function it may be better to avoid it if there is an alternative. Steel production may have to move wo places with more reliable year round renewable energy.

The first step is replacing the old style producion of hydrogen that is already used in the chemical and other industry. The step back from hydrogen to electricity and as a replacemant for natural gas makes mainly sense when the first step is complete. Currently this should only be for research - not for real use unless it is produced clean.

[jonpaul]

pumped water storage, ancient technique.

Used for decades in NY state till the environazis dismantled it along wiht all nuclear plants.

This NY state and NYC are at hights cost and worst availability of electric power.

j

[Kleinstein]

Pumped water storage is great, if there is a suitable loaction. However these are limited. We will want more of it, but for most countries (maybe except Norway and New Zeeland) it wou't be enough capacity. If you have to build the mountain or use cranes it gets too expensive.

[jonpaul]

Klienstein,

besides pumped water, other mechanical storage  ......

Flywheels (short term transient power)
High pressure gas/water in sealed mines, wells underground

jon

[Bicurico]

I have a "green" solution for the planet...
How about we gradually reduce the human population back to 2 billion (no need to kill people or start a war - just let it happen over the course of 100 years by limiting the number of children).

Abolish interest on money - this is the reason economies have to "grow". It is actually a pyramid scheme on a finite size planet. Doomed to fail. Get rid of interest rates and there is no longer a need to grow the economy.

Educate people so that they behave rational. People's retirement plan must consist in saving the exact amount of money you will need once you stop work. The current generational systems are, again, a pyramid scheme!

Make products have a mandatory life expectancy of at least 10 years. Why do we need to change car, TV, mobile phone, etc. every two to four years? Only for the economy to grow. This causes so much waste!

Eat less!

With these simple points, we will meet all climate goals, while maintaing a high living standard.

All the hype with electric cars, hydrogen, etc. is bullshit. It won't be enough for soon to become ten billion people and it does little to nothing to "save" the earth.

[jonpaul]

 “The first thing we do is, let’s kill all the lawyers.” 

- Dick the Butcher   in Shakespeare’s Henry VI, Part II,  1596 - 1599.

j

[wraper]

For long term storage hydrogen is still one of the better options we have. There is some energy loss, but for the really long time scale, like seasonal it is not so much about efficiency but about the cost per energy stored. For the a few days there may be better alternatives with better efficiency. In the electrolytic cells the hydrogen can already be produced under quite some pressure, already 90% there for storrage in steel cylinders under pressure and likely more than for salt caverns.

For seasonal, you'd better build nuclear power plants instead of caving to idiot activists and destroy them, including forging documents in the process, then building natural gas power plants instead  . Then wonder about deindustrialization. Germany in a nutshell.
https://www.dw.com/en/german-ministers-quizzed-over-nuclear-phase-out-deception/a-68931166
And try spreading that cancer over the rest of EU.
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2023-002175_EN.html

[Bicurico]

Germany is a great example to see what happens when ideologists and communists try to rule the country.

Instead of a meritocracy you get an idiocracy, where people without knowledge try to impose their vision on others.

It got so bad in Germany that I truly wish that the Germans revolt and turn down their current government, which is extreme left, antidemocratic and corrupt.

[Someone]

Pumped water storage is great, if there is a suitable loaction. However these are limited. We will want more of it, but for most countries (maybe except Norway and New Zeeland) it wou't be enough capacity. If you have to build the mountain or use cranes it gets too expensive.

Experts disagree, and claim there is a great excess of hydro storage potential:
https://re100.eng.anu.edu.au/global/

We found about 616,000 potentially feasible PHES sites with storage potential of about 23 million Gigawatt-hours (GWh) by using geographic information system (GIS) analysis. This is about one hundred times greater than required to support a 100% global renewable electricity system.

Going 100% on anything is straw man stuff, future energy storage will most likely be a broad mix of technologies exploiting their specific capabilities/suitabilities. Hydrogen will be part of that even if very little hydrogen is used raw at point of load, as it's a building block for all sorts of useful/practical "fuels".

[NiHaoMike]

It has long been established that for energy storage lasting for more than a couple of hours, hydrogen is cheaper compared to a battery.

For HVAC, which is the majority of residential load in most areas, even cheaper would be thermal storage. Just need some incentives to build it.