Engineers poorly referenced by their ex-employers.

[Faringdon]

Hi,
A number of my  Electronics engineer friends and ex-colleagues are working (or were working)  for small companies who are being government  funded to undertake military projects. This seems a good idea on the face of it…but….

However, some of these companies , even though they have been in the power supply sector for many years, they have made the bulk of their money simply  from Chinese imports, imported in , “out-of-sight”,   “via the backroom”. However, the government only sees their profit or turnover, and assumes they are good engineering companies if they made decent profit, and don’t account for the fact, that this profit, has secretly been made from Chinese importation. The government believe they made it from engineering prowess.
As such, some of my friends have had to leave these companies, due to them being asked to make “daft” products which would actually have harmed the company concerned. My friends are now struggling to get back into work, since the companies that they worked for are down-referencing them. Even though my freinds were not rude or disparaging to any of these companies. -And my friends dont "grass" these companies up for what they were doing. They keep schtum.

1…Example 1, a friend was  told to put a 150W offline flyback into high volume production. This flyback had no primary source current sense and no primary clamp whatsoever. It would have been a possible danger to the company in terms of field failures, so my friend refused to put it into production, for the sake of the company. He offered to re-design it to correct it, but was told no. He had to leave the company, since he would not act to harm the company in this way!

2…Another friend was told to put a volume PCB into volume production. This PCB was the wrong size for its enclosure. My friend offered to correct the PCB but was told no. In order to get this PCB into its enclosure, production staff had to stand up over the PCB, and press down with both thumbs and fisted hands,  with all their body weight , so as to scrunch and force the PCB into the rails of the enclosure. The PCB was visibly bent during this, and had multiple 0603 and 0805 Rs and Cs and other flexion sensitive SMD joints and stuff. After forcing the PCB in…the PCB then self-bowed-up the  other way, because there was simply no room for it to lie flat in there. If you looked at it side on…you could see it visibly bowed up.

3…Another friend was  stood up in front of big  delegations of project managers from big defence companies. He was told to promise completion of SMPSs by a certain date. He was told to tell the delegations that he himself would be doing the work. In actual fact, he was not allowed to do any of the work……instead, he was told  to train very poor quality junior engineers to do the work, and they would then try and do the work at their own , slow pace. When these engineers had failed to complete the work on time…..my friend was required to then stand up in front of the delegations, and apologise to them for  him not having been able to complete the work by the deadline, and tell them that he had been doing the work by himself but had failed to complete. (when in fact, he had not been allowed to get anywhere near the work).
Also, regarding another SMPS design done for a big defence co by another engineer who had left (after mucking up the design totally)…my friend was asked to cover up the poor design from the defence  company, and promise to  train up a rubbish junior to complete it in a tight timescale which was way too short for this rubbish junior. My friend offered to complete the design himself, but was told no.

4…Another friend was told to train a junior engineer up. They were given various work to do for external customers by certain deadlines. The junior engineer appeared disinterested. He used to simply sit on the lab bench so that no-one else could work on it, then go on his phone for long periods. Or sit there making solder pools on the  ESD mat for ages…not doing the work…my friend then had to regularly stay after hours (unpayed)  to do the work that hadn’t been done. The junior could clearly be seen lazing about, he was doing it right under the lab cam, and right in front of the production manager…..but the company’s management cooed over him like he was the new messiah…and my friend guessed that the juniors father must have payed the boss a fortune to give him experience in his first job. The junior would not do anything as he was asked. Eg , He refused to twist  wires used in  re-work, (instead having big loops of wires) and the boards  wouldnt work, and my friend would then have to stay  after hours, un-payed , to correct the rubbish work that the junior had done.
After leaving this company, my friend was very badly referenced by them, because they had not wanted him to leave, but had wanted to continue in this ganky situation.

5….Another friend was asked to make a  PFC’d power supply out of a sequence switched linear regulator based LED driver, integrated with a Switch Mode Power Supply. The idea  was just barking mad, it should simply have been done with a standard PFC’d SMPS LED driver. It would have been a total waste of money and time.

6…Another friend was told to do a product for the MOD. It involved a large battery. My friend wanted to correctly do it with a battery management system. However, he was told no, that he must just simply use an existing  multi-Kw voltage output regulated SMPS, ( not a current regulated battery charger) and just shove that onto the battery, and even though it would charge the battery at miles more than the rated acceptable current…tough luck. My friend would just have to hope that it held up during the demo in front of the MOD. The company did say, that they would use batt management systems for all their own products, but since this was “just for the MOD”, and the MOD were paying, they would half-a**e it. Or rather, my friend was told to jolly well  half-a**e it. My friend left, to save the MOD from a disastrous product, but now is poorly referenced.
(BTW, the battery was to be  borrowed from another  company in UK)

So how should my  friends be advised, in order to get work when they are being so poorly referenced? after leaving these companies…leaving to actually help these companies by not doing “nonsense” work for them.

[Andy Chee]

So how should my  friends be advised, in order to get work when they are being so poorly referenced?

Advise your friends to seek employment in a different industry.

[Alex Eisenhut]

Posts like this make me miss Amiga OS's "say" device, I could just pipe that text to the speech synth and go do the dishes or something.

[Kim Christensen]

Posts like this make me miss Amiga OS's "say" device, I could just pipe that text to the speech synth and go do the dishes or something.

In Edge, (Windows 10) I can right click the beginning of the text and select "read aloud"...

[coppercone2]

lol with how slow the most basic of engineering can go (and how hard it is to get resources), I suspect its easy to run into a unfair situation when it comes to SMPS.

the business guy thinks "well its only 20 parts"

the engineer thinks " oh shit it a COMPONENT". 1 component can ruin your day.


I have seen nonsense department kinda dissolve. I dunno what the hell, it just seems people keep leaving and it basically disappeared. I assume its a consequence of irrelevant business majors making decisions they don't understand. It probobly had other flaws that someone at the top level saw that made it get foiled (to save money meanwhile). Like if someone gets 3 years of money to do something but the other guy basically knows there is NO WAY but they gotta give them money for whatever strategic reason that is questioned because of whatever.. like a feud .

[SiliconWizard]

Also as a general point (and whether the OP's post is just fantasy or not), companies don't like whistleblowers. You should know better by now, although a surprising number of people still fall into the trap.
If you decide to blow the whistle, be sure that you do it for your own ethics and integrity and are prepared to get out. Otherwise, just keep your mouth shut.

Do that unknowingly in a company just selling stuff in a non-critical field, you are likely to get sacked.
Do it in a company selling safety-critical stuff, and you may not only get sacked, but have an unfortunate accident or suicide a few weeks down the line.

So again, whether all this above is true or not is another matter. Buf for the topic at hand, please people stop seeing the companies that employ you as ethical and good overall. That's not how it works. If you can't stand it for any reason and have the luxury, just get out and start your own business. If you can't, just keep your mouth shut. There's no way around it. Other than sheer luck, which happens every once in a while.

[fourfathom]

TL;DR

But, my answer to a bad employer or situation is to remember this:

Your relationship with your employer is not "Til Death Do Us Part".  Do a good job, earn your paycheck.  But if you want to leave, for whatever reason, do it with grace and try not to burn any bridges.  But leave.

[ebastler]

1…Example 1, a friend was  told to put a 150W offline flyback [...]
2…Another friend was told put a volume PCB into volume production [...]
3…Another friend was  stood up in front of big  delegations [...]
4…Another friend was told to train a junior engineer up. [...]
5….Another friend was asked to make a  PFC’d power supply [...]
6…Another friend was told to do a product for the MOD. [...]

Thank heavens that this medley of misfortunes happened to six different people. Each of them probably has several other, more positive references to use when seeking future employment, and more pleasant professional experiences to remember.

Imagine if all of these had happened to just one and the same unfortunate guy...

[CatalinaWOW]

While this sort of bad reference may happen it seems unusual.  Here in the US many, maybe most large companies will not provide references.  The reason? Possible blowback in the form of libel or damages.  Companies have been known to sue when an employee turns out to not be as good as represented, while employees sue when they feel they have been unfairly rated.  Even if most such cases fail, there is time and money involved in the defense and there is little or no benefit to the company for providing a reference for a departing employee.  The result is that companies will verify dates of employment but no more.  Individual managers may violate this policy, but are doing that at risk of their own jobs.

[tooki]

Posts like this make me miss Amiga OS's "say" device, I could just pipe that text to the speech synth and go do the dishes or something.

In Edge, (Windows 10) I can right click the beginning of the text and select "read aloud"...

And in Safari, on both Mac and iOS, you can select text and choose “Speak”.

[tggzzz]

1…Example 1, a friend was  told to put a 150W offline flyback [...]
2…Another friend was told put a volume PCB into volume production [...]
3…Another friend was  stood up in front of big  delegations [...]
4…Another friend was told to train a junior engineer up. [...]
5….Another friend was asked to make a  PFC’d power supply [...]
6…Another friend was told to do a product for the MOD. [...]

Thank heavens that this medley of misfortunes happened to six different people. Each of them probably has several other, more positive references to use when seeking future employment, and more pleasant professional experiences to remember.

Imagine if all of these had happened to just one and the same unfortunate guy...

At a guess, such a person must have had many many employers - and ought to be a consultant rather than an employee.

[Alex Eisenhut]

Of course, a browser extension! Turns out it wasn't as fun as I thought.
I didn't do the dishes either.

[coppercone2]

While this sort of bad reference may happen it seems unusual.  Here in the US many, maybe most large companies will not provide references.  The reason? Possible blowback in the form of libel or damages.  Companies have been known to sue when an employee turns out to not be as good as represented, while employees sue when they feel they have been unfairly rated.  Even if most such cases fail, there is time and money involved in the defense and there is little or no benefit to the company for providing a reference for a departing employee.  The result is that companies will verify dates of employment but no more.  Individual managers may violate this policy, but are doing that at risk of their own jobs.

good idea with the lawsuits

I heard these reference related threats before

[soldar]

While this sort of bad reference may happen it seems unusual.  Here in the US many, maybe most large companies will not provide references.  The reason? Possible blowback in the form of libel or damages.  Companies have been known to sue when an employee turns out to not be as good as represented, while employees sue when they feel they have been unfairly rated.  Even if most such cases fail, there is time and money involved in the defense and there is little or no benefit to the company for providing a reference for a departing employee.  The result is that companies will verify dates of employment but no more.  Individual managers may violate this policy, but are doing that at risk of their own jobs.

The times. They have changed. A lot.

It used to be society was more socially minded and people and companies and landlords and teachers would give references and recommendations. That way a person could build a good reputation which would help him get ahead.

Now, with so much litigation, so much "privacy", everyone wants to avoid getting caught in problems so they just avoid giving any references. But this only helps the bad actors at the expense of the good.

In ye olden days of paper mail there was a custom which I found interesting and it was that when a company was asked for information on some (ex)employee or even supplier, customer, etc, they would write a letter giving a very general good or bad reference, without naming the individual at all and the name would be on a separate slip of paper so it would not be directly linked to the person.

Dear sirs, the person named in the enclosed note is, in our estimation, an average worker, not outstanding but reliable, missed very few days of work and was faithful while with us. Was laid off due to downsizing and through no fault of his own. Taking all this into consideration we would recommend him. Yours faithfully. etc.

I suppose today that would not work but it was common practice decades ago.

Not being able to get references and recommendations means the best are harmed by the worst because employers, landlords  etc have to treat them all with great precaution.  Not good in my opinion.

[tooki]

What’s hilarious/ridiculous is the practice that developed in the German speaking world of “coded” letters of “recommendation”. It’s the result of two competing legal requirements: 1. that employees are fundamentally entitled to a letter documenting their employment, and 2. that the letter must be fundamentally ”benevolent” (meaning you absolutely cannot badmouth the employee in it, no matter what.) So while one solution could have been something akin to the American one (to simply provide a letter documenting dates of employment and little else), and one does see this on rare occasion (when someone was a really, really bad employee), instead we got a doublespeak-like system of perversion of language. Since prospective employers wanted info about the applicants, but former employers couldn’t say anything bad, this system emerged by which positive-sounding things actually mean a negative.

The wording was deliberately designed so that an employee would read it and think “I got a good recommendation” while a trained HR person sees it and understands it to be an unflattering one. It uses very specific, formulaic wordings from which a trained HR person writing it does not deviate, lest they be misunderstood.

Certain wordings are such that a baseline good review means bad, a very good means medium, and only an excellent means “good”. So “performed their duties satisfactorily” means they were a lousy worker, while “performed their duties to the fullest satisfaction” is actually positive. Omission is actually used to signify things that are fine (i.e. things that are fundamentally expected of an employee), while mentioning it at all means “watch out”: “…fostered good relationships with coworkers” means someone was too chatty. “Arrived at work punctually” means they were often late. “Often contributed ideas” meant they kept inserting themselves into things that weren’t their business.


As awareness of this practice has grown, employers who aren’t HR experts trained to write those coded recommendations will plainly write on them: “This recommendation is written using non-coded language and is to be understood at face value.”

[tggzzz]

There used to be something similar in the British Empire (and no doubt others). Servants employed by the ruling class has to have a "logbook" detailing their previous employment and recommendations.

Since that was crucial to someone being able to have continued means to feed their families, those books were taken very seriously by the servant and employers. Hence "coded language" was used. Arthur C Clarke outlined the practice, and noted some of the phrases. For example, "...appears honest..." means that nothing could be proven.

Nothing changes; history doesn't repeat, but it does rhyme.

[jpanhalt]

What’s hilarious/ridiculous is the practice that developed in the German speaking world of “coded” letters of “recommendation”.

Do you mean something like, "You'd be lucky to get this person to work for you?"

[RJSV]

   Going by your title,  I know the feeling, as a person does not usually have any way to directly demand fair reference.
   I got lucky, when people noticed what I had going, and was actually just asked to work for them.   More than once, somebody noticed my liver of the work, and this last time I could 'name my price'!

That's for Live Animal daycare (puppies). Some even fought over me, flattering.  Current gig going on more than 2 years!  That's so nice, after 40 years in the Silicon Valley bs.

   You need to be good, in whatever field, and consider the customer.  Service attitude is very important, as customers talk to each other.

   Be good, very good, and get them fighting over your services.
   Customer payz,   don't get laze.

[tggzzz]

What’s hilarious/ridiculous is the practice that developed in the German speaking world of “coded” letters of “recommendation”.

Do you mean something like, "You'd be lucky to get this person to work for you?"

IIRC that was another one

[Infraviolet]

"coded letters of recommendation"
Reminds me of an old joke:

He can always be found
hard at work in his cubicle. He works independently, without
wasting company time talking to colleagues. He never
thinks twice about assisting fellow employees, and he always
finishes given assignments on time. Often he takes extended
measures to complete his work, sometimes skipping coffee
breaks. He has absolutely no
vanity in spite of his high accomplishments and profound
knowledge in his field. I firmly believe that he can be
classed as a high-caliber employee, the type which cannot be
dispensed with. Consequently, I duly recommend that he be
promoted to executive management, and a proposal will be
sent away as soon as possible.

That letter of recommendation is then follows by a short note

"He was watching over my shoulder while I typed that, please read every other line only".

P.S. Amazing how Faringdon has managed to weave switched mode power supplies in to this tale again.

P.P.S.  "You'd be lucky to get this person to work for you?" I swear I had the full text of that joke saved somewhere, there's a lot more lines presented in that dual meaning tone, but can't seem to find it anywhere.

[Sal Ammoniac]

As such, some of my friends have had to leave these companies, due to them being asked to make “daft” products which would actually have harmed the company concerned. My friends are now struggling to get back into work, since the companies that they worked for are down-referencing them. Even though my freinds were not rude or disparaging to any of these companies. -And my friends dont "grass" these companies up for what they were doing. They keep schtum.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. It seems like your friends are leaving these companies because they feel the products they're being asked to work on are dangerous, poorly designed, or whatever, but they're not disparaging the companies in any way, yet they're still getting bad references from these companies. If that's the case, it would seem like they'd get a similar bad reference no matter why they left.

If that's the case, I don't see any way to do anything about it. I'm assuming you're in the UK -- how important are references from prior employers? Here in the US, companies rarely check references, and, in fact, many companies have policies that prevent them from saying anything about a former employee except that they did work for them, and perhaps their job title. I think this is because they don't want to be sued if they give a poor reference.

Companies here do have a way to prevent former employees from trash-talking the company if it's the company that terminates the employee, either by firing them or laying them off: severance agreements almost always include a "non-disparagement" clause that prevents the employee from saying bad things about the company. You're free to not accept the severance, but most people take it considering they're about to be unemployed and without an income and the severance agreement usually includes severance pay.

That doesn't stop people from ragging on companies anonymously on platforms like Glassdoor...

[coppice]

The last time I looked it was hard to get a reference from a UK employer that said more than "X worked for this company from Y to Z.". This was the result of court cases in the 1980s, where companies were successfully sued for honest bad references. Apparently every dead beat is entitled to a flowing review.

[Kjelt]

Reference?
Companies kill to get technical people on board, they are extreme short in supply.
If your friends have at least one right hand and half a brain he has a job tomorrow.

[coppice]

Reference?
Companies kill to get technical people on board, they are extreme short in supply.
If your friends have at least one right hand and half a brain he has a job tomorrow.

They'll do anything to get good people apart from pay them better.

[Kjelt]

Reference?
Companies kill to get technical people on board, they are extreme short in supply.
If your friends have at least one right hand and half a brain he has a job tomorrow.

They'll do anything to get good people apart from pay them better.

Unfortunately I just experienced something different. New hire zero domain experience, I need to train him, just found out he has a higher paygrade, while I have ten years domain experience 
Talked to my boss about it and in order to promote me he needs four higher managers to co-sign and that only rarely happens (if you really did something beyond their wildest i agination). "If I had to hire you today I would offer you the higher grade, now my hands are tied"