Ebay global shipping - Pitney Bowes scam?

[Fungus]

I'm just trying to figure out how to get a VAT invoice from eBay for things bought from the USA.

When I buy from the USA, eBay global shipping pays the tax for me, apparently.

So: Why can't I get an invoice out of them so I can reclaim the tax as part of my business? I've searched everywhere but all I can find is a bunch of people complaining about the same thing.

I suspect the truth is this:
1) eBay sends it to themselves (in Ireland) and pays import tax.
2) They send it on to me, no VAT payments change hands because it's all internal to Europe.
3) eBay Ireland reclaims the VAT - they're a business, right?

Result: Massive profit (and ripoff of eBay buyers).

[Towger]

The separate Pitney Bowes PayPal transaction has an 'Invoice ID' on it.

Invoice ID
PGW_31479xxxxxx
Purchase details
Import charges USD 12.88
Shipping USD 26.82
Total
This payment USD 39.70
Fee USD 0.00
You paid USD 39.70
This payment is for part of your purchase at Pitney
Bowes, Inc. on .

Edit:

This is what PB say:

What should customers in Europe expect about VAT charges?   Merchandise that is available through the Global Shipping Program is only for personal use or consumption by the designated recipient and is not for commercial resale.  Therefore import VAT incurred on the purchase of goods for non-business purposes cannot be reclaimed or recovered.

Sounds like they don't fully understand VAT.  Why not send a formal complaint into Irish Revenue or HMRC, the VAT man takes not getting his (correct) cut very seriously.

[Fungus]

What should customers in Europe expect about VAT charges?   Merchandise that is available through the Global Shipping Program is only for personal use or consumption by the designated recipient and is not for commercial resale.  Therefore import VAT incurred on the purchase of goods for non-business purposes cannot be reclaimed or recovered.

Sounds like they don't fully understand VAT.  Why not send a formal complaint into Irish Revenue or HMRC, the VAT man takes not getting his (correct) cut very seriously.

Seems more and more like their Irish company is reclaiming all that VAT for themselves. The whole "we handle the taxes for you" thing is just a front.

[Towger]

I have started to use An Post's AddressPal to reship from the USA.  It is cheaper and and faster.  I have also not been charged any VAT on my 3 orders, so far...

They the fact that they issue an 'Invoice ID' via Pal, is interesting.  Invoices have a number of legal requirements, I'll have a dig into them.

[bd139]

Phone HMRC up and ask. They have a right shit fit if people are pocketing tax or not complying with VAT regs. I think there is a form you can fill in that absolves you from it. There used to be about 20 years ago.

I don’t buy anything on company expenses from amazon and eBay any more. Total nightmare.

[borjam]

This is what PB say:

What should customers in Europe expect about VAT charges?   Merchandise that is available through the Global Shipping Program is only for personal use or consumption by the designated recipient and is not for commercial resale.  Therefore import VAT incurred on the purchase of goods for non-business purposes cannot be reclaimed or recovered.

Sounds like they don't fully understand VAT.  Why not send a formal complaint into Irish Revenue or HMRC, the VAT man takes not getting his (correct) cut very seriously.

I'm not a lawyer nor anything remotely resembling it, but that is illegal. An invoice with a clear statement of the VAT paid is mandatory no matter you are a business or a consumer.

Even if they are doing a manoeuvre like buying it from an American and reselling it to you in Europe there is a VAT paid and they can't just pocket it. They must pay VAT at customs. Claiming it themselves? Good luck with that. In theory it's just not possible.

[TopLoser]

I’m keeping quiet this time. Everybody seems to know what’s going on but HMRC don’t want to know.

[Howardlong]

FWIW I am in the same boat, and have been for a few years since this global shipping thing started. Typically the seller offers no other method of international shipping, which for them is a reasonable scenario. Quite what happens to the VAT is beyond me.

I’ve heard the argument that it’s for personal sales only, but every other international shipper seems to be able to deal with it.

Don’t misunderstand me, the treatment of VAT and its collection varies hugely between states, so it’s not trivial to set it up correctly.

On a side note, the quality of the shipping logistics itself stinks, you item takes a long time to arrive by modern logistics standards, and seemingly your items sit in Erlanger Kentucky for days on end. On one occasion I’ve had a shipment returned to sender before it even got out of the US, and on another occasion I received the wrong item after it was re-packed by Shitney-Bowes, one of the “services” they offer sellers.

It’s a badly thought out, and half baked service.

So I’m sorry, in short, I don’t have a solution for reclaiming the VAT.

[bd139]

Global shipping is a massively fucking stupid idea. Too many hands in the process = turd.

[MT]

This is what PB say:
What should customers in Europe expect about VAT charges? Merchandise that is available through the Global Shipping Program is only for personal use or consumption by the designated recipient and is not for commercial resale.  Therefore import VAT incurred on the purchase of goods for non-business purposes cannot be reclaimed or recovered.

This is a fraud, since when can Ebay dictate national vat/customs decisions and procedures? Boycott eBay its a fraud company!

https://www.paypal-community.com/t5/Archive/I-have-been-charged-18-from-pitney-Bowes-inc/td-p/628337/page/7?profile.language=en-gb

[borjam]

If the global shipping is only for personal use and NOT business then they may have decided against sending out business tax invoices. Perhaps don't use Ebay global shipping under such circumstances. There are other options.

Consumer or business, anyone selling you anything must give you a proper invoice.

Right, it's stupid to ask for an invoice when buying a newspaper, but for everything worth more than some pounds or euros the invoice is mandatory.

In Spain they have been fining pubs that didn't gave patrons a ticket with the mandatory information printed.

[Howardlong]

I'm just trying to figure out how to get a VAT invoice from eBay for things bought from the USA.

When I buy from the USA, eBay global shipping pays the tax for me, apparently.

So: Why can't I get an invoice out of them so I can reclaim the tax as part of my business? I've searched everywhere but all I can find is a bunch of people complaining about the same thing.

@Towger quotes the T&C's as

This is what PB say:

What should customers in Europe expect about VAT charges?   Merchandise that is available through the Global Shipping Program is only for personal use or consumption by the designated recipient and is not for commercial resale.  Therefore import VAT incurred on the purchase of goods for non-business purposes cannot be reclaimed or recovered.

Sounds like they don't fully understand VAT.  Why not send a formal complaint into Irish Revenue or HMRC, the VAT man takes not getting his (correct) cut very seriously.

If the global shipping is only for personal use and NOT business then they may have decided against sending out business tax invoices. Perhaps don't use Ebay global shipping under such circumstances. There are other options.

It's actually nonsense what the Ts&Cs state. Who stated the items were being re-sold? For TE, my use case and about 90% of my eBay spend over the years, typically it's for company lab use. I have no intention of re-selling.

As I already mentioned earlier, typically sellers, quite understandably, offer Global Shipping Program because it's a single international shipping method and single process rather than having to support several. I can state from my own experience as an international shipper myself, averaging about 2k international shipments per annum for the past seven years, trying to support multiple shipping methods is a big overhead, it's far simpler to have a single streamlined system. I don't use the GSP as I don't sell my products on eBay, I deal directly with my logistics company.

[wraper]

I don't think that Pitney Bowes can technically provide a valid VAT invoice for business to begin with. If you are business, and goods are imported in EU country other that your own and clearance done on seller's behalf, then you should provide your VAT number at purchase and not charged any VAT to begin with. If I provide such invoice with VAT included but imported somewhere other than Latvia, Latvian tax agency would say me to fuck off. Dunno if this can fly in other EU countries, but normally you are not supposed to be charged with VAT in other EU country and then be able to claim it back in your own country. For this to work, I guess Pitney Bowes would need to buy goods from the seller, then sell to you with their VAT number and 0% VAT.

[TopLoser]

Not quite correct when UK buyers import stuff from the US for example. Even a business has to pay the assessed VAT to Parcelforce/Royal Mail/Fedex/UPS to be able to have the item delivered to them, but they obtain a VAT invoice from Parcelforce/Royal Mail/Fedex/UPS and can then claim that VAT back.

Pitney Bowes don’t/won’t/can’t provide a similar invoice.

[wraper]

Not quite correct when UK buyers import stuff from the US for example. Even a business has to pay the assessed VAT to Parcelforce/Royal Mail/Fedex/UPS to be able to have the item delivered to them, but they obtain a VAT invoice from Parcelforce/Royal Mail/Fedex/UPS and can then claim that VAT back.

Pitney Bowes don’t/won’t/can’t provide a similar invoice.

Yes, exactly. I pay VAT to post or customs broker in Latvia and then claim it back. Because you pay taxes by your own or through customs broker in your country. Your own EORI number is used for import. In case of Pitney Bowes it's completely different. It's getting imported somewhere else in EU in bulk and nothing can be claimed back.

[wraper]

For example, look at mouser. If you are business, goods are imported by their representative in France and sold to your VAT number with zero VAT and with using VAT number of their representative EDIT: particularly mouser subsidiary in EU http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/vies/viesquer.do?ms=FR&vat=27512466913. If you did not provide VAT during your purchase, you'll be charged VAT. You'll get VAT invoice as well but are not supposed to claim that VAT back. At least it's not going to fly with Latvian tax agency.

In case of GSP it's even more complicated. Because goods are: 1. imported in bulk, 2. on your, not seller's behalf. 3. in different country.
And then:
1) To claim VAT paid back, point 1 and 3 is not valid, it must be imported in your country using your EORI. EDIT: probably it could be done by customs broker in other EU country where import is made with using your EORI but it's not applicable here and not possible with bulk import.
2) To not be charged VAT to begin with, then it should have been done on sellers behalf and purchase made using VAT number of yours and VAT of sellers rep in EU.

[wraper]

I'm not a lawyer nor anything remotely resembling it, but that is illegal. An invoice with a clear statement of the VAT paid is mandatory no matter you are a business or a consumer.

No it's not. You are not paying to EU company. Therefore no VAT in the invoice. You pay for all expenses (including VAT which will be paid) to get your goods cleared at customs, that does not mean they technically can or are obliged provide a VAT invoice to you.

[TopLoser]

I'm not a lawyer nor anything remotely resembling it, but that is illegal. An invoice with a clear statement of the VAT paid is mandatory no matter you are a business or a consumer.

No it's not. You are not paying to EU company. Therefore no VAT in the invoice. You pay for all expenses (including VAT which will be paid) to get your goods cleared at customs, that does not mean they technically can or are obliged provide a VAT invoice to you.

Fair point, sounds like triangulation is coming into play now

[Fungus]

No it's not. You are not paying to EU company. Therefore no VAT in the invoice.

a) This is true, but it also gives them a loophole to claim that VAT back themselves.
b) There's a European VAT registry, which, if you meet the conditions, allows you to reclaim VAT on goods purchsed from other European countries. I know this because I'm on it, I can buy stuff from Germany and they give me a VAT invoice. Pitney-bowes is a European company, they're obliged to give me a VAT invoice if I'm on the registry.

https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/vat-customs/check-number-vies/index_en.htm

You pay for all expenses (including VAT which will be paid) to get your goods cleared at customs,

The scam is that they get to reclaim all the VAT for themselves - free money!

(and that properly registered buyers can't reclaim it, because they don't receive a real invoice)

that does not mean they technically can or are obliged provide a VAT invoice to you.

Wrong. All they have to do is ask me for my European VAT number (which is the same as my Spanish VAT number, but listed in the European VAT registry).

[Stray Electron]

Global shipping is a massively fucking stupid idea.

   Not if you're E-bay, they collect a Listing Fee, a percentage of the sales price, then the PayPal fees, currency exchange fee and percentage of that and now; a large share of the shipping costs.

Too many hands in the process = turd.

    All of the hands belong to E-bay/Pay Pal. Go look up their yearly profit.  They just continuing to find new ways to stick it to their users. 

[Fungus]

Global shipping is a massively fucking stupid idea.

   Not if you're E-bay, they collect a Listing Fee, a percentage of the sales price, then the PayPal fees, currency exchange fee and percentage of that and now; a large share of the shipping costs.

And take two or three times as long to deliver anything.

[wraper]

a) This is true, but it also gives them a loophole to claim that VAT back themselves.

They cannot because they don't own the goods. If they try, they'll get a slap on their hands very fast.

Pitney-bowes is a European company, they're obliged to give me a VAT invoice if I'm on the registry.

No it is not, probably they have a subsidiary in EU but it's not a company you deal with. Again they don't sell the goods to you. The only company that can provide an invoice for customs clearance with VAT paid for goods they don't own is Customs broker in EU which you should deal with directly, not through overseas company. But to do so, customs clearance must be done with your EORI number, not in bulk.

There's a European VAT registry, which, if you meet the conditions, allows you to reclaim VAT on goods purchsed from other European countries. I know this because I'm on it, I can buy stuff from Germany and they give me a VAT invoice.

Dunno how something like this can fly with your tax agency. For me it works only in the way that I provide my VAT number and charged zero VAT in other EU countries. AFAIK there are certain goods for which it works otherwise and VAT is paid/reclaimed in different EU countries. But that is not a general case and is very prone for VAT fraud schemes.

Wrong. All they have to do is ask me for my European VAT number (which is the same as my Spanish VAT number, but listed in the European VAT registry).

They can ask it from you 10 times. But as you pay to overseas company, VAT number is meaningless.

[Stray Electron]

And take two or three times as long to deliver anything.

   That's because E-bay now wants all US sellers to send all of their items to an address in E-bay Kentucky. They then gather everything and put it into large shipping containers and ship them as bulk cargo (read SLOW and CHEAP)  to the buyer's country. Once there, they open them and ship the items to the buyer via that country's mail system.   The seller has to pay for the shipping to Kentucky (and the cost is usually charged back to the buyer) and as I understand it, E-bay also directly charges the buyer for the costs of the bulk shipping and the local shipping.  The thing for me was that the cost of shipping to Kentucky was nearly as much as it would cost to ship the item to many of the foreign countries.  In addition, I know that the selling price will be less because buyers are going to have to pay the E-bay shipping charges and are going to keep that in mind when they bid on an item.  Once again E-bay had found a way to make MORE money off of their buyers and sellers. Not only did the buyers pay more and the sellers earn less but shipping now took longer!  I used to sell most of my items to people in Europe but I saw a significant drop in the prices when Ebay started this crap and it's one of the main reasons that I no longer bother to sell stuff of E-bay.

   PS FWIW it's not just the non-US buyers that are getting screwed by Ebay's shipping.  The last item that I sold went to North Carolina (about 400 miles). I shipped it via Fed-Ex via E-bay shipping. Well E-bay now has an "arrangement" with FedEx whereby FedEx delivered the package to North Carolina but then turned it over to the US Postal Service.  In this case, it took three days to get to North Carolina and then six additional days for the USPS to deliver it!  Straight Fed EX shipping to North Carolina usually takes three days and straight USPS shipping four to five days,  but this method took nine days! The buyer was in a hurry to get the item and they were PISSED and left me bad feedback because of the shipping.  That was the LAST item that I sold on E-bay.  It's just not worth the costs and the headaches.

[alpher]

This is what PB say:
What should customers in Europe expect about VAT charges? Merchandise that is available through the Global Shipping Program is only for personal use or consumption by the designated recipient and is not for commercial resale.  Therefore import VAT incurred on the purchase of goods for non-business purposes cannot be reclaimed or recovered.

This is a fraud, since when can Ebay dictate national vat/customs decisions and procedures? Boycott eBay its a fraud company!

Ironic, isn't it?

[borjam]

I'm not a lawyer nor anything remotely resembling it, but that is illegal. An invoice with a clear statement of the VAT paid is mandatory no matter you are a business or a consumer.

No it's not. You are not paying to EU company. Therefore no VAT in the invoice. You pay for all expenses (including VAT which will be paid) to get your goods cleared at customs, that does not mean they technically can or are obliged provide a VAT invoice to you.

Whatever you pay must be reflected in an invoice, period.

You don't pay to an European company, but you pay local VAT to Customs? You must receive an invoice. If the courier is doing the paperwork for you they must still provide an invoice. Exchanges of money for goods or services are reflected in invoices.