Do we really need a grid?

[Connecteur]

When I was a kid, I knew an old guy who told me that at one time, every small entity had their own power plant. Towns and cities, farms and apartment buildings ran their own generating plants.  Most of that ended when the power grid appeared, undercutting the costs of running your own generating plant in most cases.

But did we expect that the grid would become a monopoly? Are the big power plants the only game in town?  Not so much, I think anymore.  Granted, it's still very expensive to set up your own power generation, and the grid is still cost-competitive, but for how much longer?  Should the power companies be allowed to continue exploiting their monopolies? 

I think technology is making it easier and easier to manage electrical power, and perhaps a cooperative sharing grid is the way of the future, minus the monopolies.

[Zucca]

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/will-ac-power-distribution-become-obsolete/

Was the above not enough?

[CatalinaWOW]

Yes there are monopolies in the power generation industry.  But here in the United States, there are government controls on rates and requirements on service.  I suspect this is true in much of the world.  It is also true that those government entities can be swayed/suborned by the power companies.  But in democratic countries I believe it is far easier to change those controls with the ballot box than to compete economically with a monopoly.  Depending on your local political system your mileage may vary.

[Gyro]

When I was a kid, I knew an old guy who told me that at one time, every small entity had their own power plant. Towns and cities, farms and apartment buildings ran their own generating plants.  Most of that ended when the power grid appeared, undercutting the costs of running your own generating plant in most cases.

It wasn't a case of undercutting (although why would you not cheaper prices than the unreliable and expensive private generation companies of time?) Those were real monopolies, your mains feed didn't go anywhere else! It was about reliability, standardization and easy movement of energy from where it was most economical and practical to generate it to areas of higher demand. Local town scale generation at the time was a mess of different voltages, AC/DC, distribution means, metering, grounding.  In short, a complete mess. Was that not enough reason to create a grid?

But did we expect that the grid would become a monopoly? Are the big power plants the only game in town?  Not so much, I think anymore.  Granted, it's still very expensive to set up your own power generation, and the grid is still cost-competitive, but for how much longer?  Should the power companies be allowed to continue exploiting their monopolies?

Of course a national grid needs to have a central operator. How can power generation companies be "exploiting their monopolies" - there are several of them and they are prevented from having monopolies and forced to compete by all being linked into that central grid.

I think technology is making it easier and easier to manage electrical power, and perhaps a cooperative sharing grid is the way of the future, minus the monopolies.

So you still want a grid? Who's going to run and pay for it? Or do you want somebody to provide and maintain that massive infrastructure of distribution free for the sharing? If you do not want to pay for it then we can all go back to the good old days of struggling to match local generation capacity to local demand and single points of failure.

[Siwastaja]

Nobody prevents you from generating your own power off-grid. Try it and see how much cheaper it ends up being in real world. Technology to do that (diesel generators, off-grid PV battery hybrid inverters, small wind turbines etc.) is readily available and mass-manufactured in China for pretty decent cost, and if you think that is a conspiracy too you are surely free to build your own from raw materials.

[Connecteur]

Back when grid power became available, the power companies wouldn't service farms unless the farmers provided the lines themselves.  They did so, forming REAs (Rural Electrification Associations).  They ran cooperatively, and maintained the lines, negotiated the rates, and generally benefitted the members.

But few REAs remain today. One by one they have been pushed out of existence by various factors that all boil down to making the members sell off their REAs.  It's hard to discount the overbearing influence of the big power companies in making that happen.

At any rate, my point is that cooperative organizations can work, but as long as big power companies own the grid, it will be very difficult for a cooperative grid to develop.

[Andy Chee]

Back when grid power became available, the power companies wouldn't service farms unless the farmers provided the lines themselves.  They did so, forming REAs (Rural Electrification Associations).  They ran cooperatively, and maintained the lines, negotiated the rates, and generally benefitted the members.

Which country are you talking about?

[Gyro]

Such things may work on limited rural farming area, where the farmers own the land and are prepared to run and maintain their own power lines. Try scaling that to towns, let alone cities, and none of that holds true.

You may as well change the thread title to 'Do we really need a grid in small rural agricultural communities?'

[coppice]

Nobody prevents you from generating your own power off-grid.

Many countries ban, or severely restrict, people generating their own power. There has been a lot of relaxation of these rules to allow rooftop solar, but the restrictions haven't gone away.

[Buriedcode]

Is it me or are there quite a lot of posts where the OP posts an opinion, people disagree, and they reply with just the same argument, so it becomes more of a soap box than a discussion/question?

(I'm aware that I pretty much bring nothing to this thread).

[Simon]

Dear OP, you are delusional and don't understand the full story. I have no idea what happens in the US but around the world people sell power back to the power companies. What you are demanding happens already but it needs a single grid operator to run it without chaos ensuing. In the UK the power grid is owned by one company but the generators are many companies.

[Gyro]

He's in France, from memory.

[Simon]

He's in France, from memory.

well then I don't know what the hell he is complaining about, we in the UK pay more for electricity than anyone and one of our major suppliers (not grid operator) is EDF, basically Frances national energy company, so if he lets me know his address I'll send him his portion of my bill!

[Connecteur]

Nowadays, you can fairly expect to be trolled for any post.  What I mean by "troll" is someone who only wants to provoke a fight of some kind.  Somehow, they are able to slip by the moderators and ruin the discussion for all.

[vk4ffab]

Nobody prevents you from generating your own power off-grid. Try it and see how much cheaper it ends up being in real world. Technology to do that (diesel generators, off-grid PV battery hybrid inverters, small wind turbines etc.) is readily available and mass-manufactured in China for pretty decent cost, and if you think that is a conspiracy too you are surely free to build your own from raw materials.

While I am not off grid, I have not drawn power from the grid in over 6 months. Depending on geography this is easy to do and cheep enough with solar and batteries. I have neighbors who are 100% off grid, but that really requires a backup generator to charge batteries the couple times a year we do not have sun for a week. The biggest expense is not really the solar or the batteries, its making the house energy efficient. Additional insulation, painting the house a light colour to reflect heat, solar hot water  or a heat pump, buying all new 5 star or better appliances etc etc. I spent 10 grand just making our house not leak so much heat in winter. We have a temp range here of -2 deg C in winter to 40+ deg C in summer. But now, we consume about 1/2 the power of the average Aussie home, generate excess power all year round and have no power bill and the electricity account always in credit. Even when you do not use power from the grid we have to pay the poles and wires fees each month and thats like $40. So off grid is doable but it depends on where you live. Oh and the solar and batteries paid for themselves in about 6 years.