Diversity, Equity and Inclusion

[MT]

[james_s]

There is a fair amount of diversity here.  We have already had comments to that effect.  I'd honestly love to here the opinion of women engineers, there are some on here.

I hope we aren't excluding them?  Are we?

I have never met a male engineer that had any desire to exclude women. Most of us enjoy being around women and would love to have more of them in the field, but very few women seem to have any real interest in engineering. When I was a kid I was teased mercilessly by girls for being interested in computers and other nerdy stuff, right up through high school it was an incredibly effective way to repel women. Even to this day I know only a small handful of women who have a genuine interest in STEM and of those I can't think of a single one of them that is interested enough to do it as not only a career but a hobby also as I and many of my male colleagues do. I think it would be great if this wasn't the case, but I really resent being blamed for it or accused of excluding them. Women have a HUGE advantage since every tech company is falling over themselves to hire more of them and yet here we are.

[emece67]

• It's facism. If you don't tow the party line, if you don't sing with their narrative you are obviously a right wing bigot who should be silenced quickly.
• And these attacks are always in the one direction from extreme left to supposed right.
• I might not agree with everything he says, but he definitely makes more sense than some of the far-left radicals.
• Matt Walsh is another person on the right who talks a lot of sense.
• It feels like someone connected a very, very left voltage source to that scale and while I thought I was slightly left of centre, I now find myself out on the right apparently.
• People (like me) who considered themselves left (even far left in many regards) now find themsleves in the "centre", because the Overton Window has well and truly shifted to the left. But to the new extreme left you are now marked as a right wing nutjob, alt-right, or something to that effect. That's why the new left are eating themselves,
• The left however have not found that limit yet and they are hell bent on pushing and pushing and pushing.
• I think much of the shift to the left in the west, comes from the fear of the right
• This is also why many who disagree with left wing organisations are labeled as bad
• As time goes on, there will be less and less companies surviving on the long term, who are not radical leftist.
• Every single time, the radical left was left unchecked, millions of people died who disagreed, or were in the way.
• Also far-left really like killing a character of anyone they do not like by naming them alt-right.
• identitarian leftie echo chambers like Twatter
• but the left has moved SO FAR to the left that now I'm probably somewhere slightly to the right of center

Curious EE thread, absolutely on-topic and devoid of political opinions.

[james_s]

We cannot discuss it here because forum rules forbid it. Amazingly moderators seem happy to also post on this thread.

You may notice the rules are somewhat flexible here and not nearly as absolute as in many forums. As long as things stay civil and somewhat relevant to the field of engineering they will generally let things slide. For most of us working corporate jobs, DEI is very relevant.

[IanB]

I have never met a male engineer that had any desire to exclude women. Most of us enjoy being around women and would love to have more of them in the field, but very few women seem to have any real interest in engineering. When I was a kid I was teased mercilessly by girls for being interested in computers and other nerdy stuff, right up through high school it was an incredibly effective way to repel women. Even to this day I know only a small handful of women who have a genuine interest in STEM and of those I can't think of a single one of them that is interested enough to do it as not only a career but a hobby also as I and many of my male colleagues do. I think it would be great if this wasn't the case, but I really resent being blamed for it or accused of excluding them. Women have a HUGE advantage since every tech company is falling over themselves to hire more of them and yet here we are.

This does depend somewhat on the branch of science or engineering being looked at. I find there is a very short-sighted tendency to see "Tech" as anything to do with computers, rather than STEM in general.

If you look at the complete picture, including the biological sciences, mathematics, and all branches of engineering, you will find a much greater representation of women. Even excluding biological sciences, if you look at mechanical, civil or chemical engineering you will find plenty of women there.

[emece67]

As long as things stay civil and somewhat relevant to the field of engineering they will generally let things slide.

I mostly see people attacking lefties. Not very civil, I think, and definitely not relevant (see my post above: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/diversity-equity-and-inclusion/msg4365721/#msg4365721).

[sokoloff]

I mostly see attacks against over-reaching, extreme, or impractical points of view (sometimes to the point of being confusing whether they're attacking an actual position or inventing and attacking a strawman).

Perhaps those points of view have something else in common as well.

[james_s]

This is a plain old politics discussion, apparently mostly among middle-aged men. My vote is to lock this thread.

How very decolonial of you.  Have you already tweeted how you voted to silence ugly white old middle-aged men griping about politically-motivated irrational unfairness affecting their professions?  You should.  I'm sure you'll get brownie rainbow points from your fellow ideolobots there.

Oh come on. I have no problem with middle-aged men, being one myself. (And on the upper end of the "middle aged" spectrum.) But I don't enjoy being inside an echo chamber full of us guys. I can develop my own biases and don't need a group to help me develop or reconfirm those.

Then go somewhere else. You are as welcome here as anyone, but if you don't like the thread then don't participate in it. There are loads of threads on this forum that I have no interest in or got bored with. I see no point in complaining that a thread should be locked, when I'm not longer interested in participating I exit, it's simple.

[tszaboo]

Curious EE thread, absolutely on-topic and devoid of political opinions.

Are you trying to cancel this thread, because it might be different than what you think?
You know, that this attempt is just proving our point even further?
It was stated multiple times that this forum is not a democracy, or a free speech platform, whatever Dave and mods find acceptable goes.

[Nominal Animal]

Curious EE thread, absolutely on-topic and devoid of political opinions.

Knowing that someone else has different opinions or values than you do must be physically painful to you, seeing how much effort you are putting into silencing them.

I remind you, I'm happy to listen to what everyone has to say, as long as they use their own words and not someone elses.
It is you, T3sl4co1l, and emece67 that are demanding this thread be locked, because you do not want dissenting opinions or views to exist, and especially not written out anywhere on the internet.  Instead of ignoring the thread, you're spending an awful lot of effort to try and lock/cancel it.  Why?

Do you not see the irony here either?  That it is exactly the widespread behaviour you exhibit right now, that we are complaining about?

[ebastler]

Why, then, do you insist on voting to lock this thread, i.e. silence everybody, when you could simply not read this thread?
Wouldn't it be more rational for you to do something else, instead of demanding voting to stop others talking?

I made the suggestion once, and made it clear it is my personal vote. I neither insisted on nor demanded anything.

I have always perceived the moderation style to be a strength of this forum: Allowing all kinds of digressions, strong opinions, joking and teasing; but drawing a clear line at politics and religion. I found that policy to be valuable and important. It avoids discussions where fundamental differences of opinion lead to tensions between forum members which end up reaching beyond the specific thread.

The way you lash out at me nicely illustrates that point. Tempers run hot quickly in these topics. (Re-read my two prior posts, re-read your replies, and look in the mirror please.) And whether I want it or not, having seen your responses and style here will taint my perception of you in other threads. 

Why is it that you have such a big problem with "middle-aged men" expressing themselves, even if you consider yourself one?  Self-hatred?

Thank you, I'm fine. It's the discussion in this thread which I find cringeworthy. Suits the regular's table in a pub, but not this forum.

[Zero999]

As long as things stay civil and somewhat relevant to the field of engineering they will generally let things slide.

I mostly see people attacking lefties. Not very civil, I think, and definitely not relevant (see my post above: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/diversity-equity-and-inclusion/msg4365721/#msg4365721).

That's because so many people here have been cancelled by those on the left.

If you have left wing views, that's fine, but why not air them here, rather than moaning about this thread not being locked? If you don't like this thread, then don't read and post in it.

I know there are people here who have different political views to mine, which is fine by me and I'd have no problem working with them. The problem I have is nowadays there seems to be a large number of people who are intolerant of those with different views and they generally tend to be more on the left. I know that doesn't apply to all left wingers.

[KaneTW]

I know there are people here who have different political views to mine, which is fine by me and I'd have no problem working with them. The problem I have is nowadays there seems to be a large number of people who are intolerant of those with different views and they generally tend to be more on the left. I know that doesn't apply to all left wingers.

Yes. I'm a pretty liberal person, but ultimately the one thing I'm intolerant of is intolerance of other opinions. It's a bit ironic, but the line has to be drawn somewhere.

[Nominal Animal]

And whether I want it or not, having seen your responses and style here will taint my perception of you in other threads.

Of course it does, because style and appearance is what defines your perception, not content.

To be honest, seeing how intolerant you are towards different opinions and viewpoints, I could not care any less of your perception of me.

[SiliconWizard]

One "funny" thing is, after having spent decades trying to (or pretending to...) "glorify" differences (which, as is, is a rather good idea, as long as it's the real idea and does not mean to serve a less pretty ideology behind nice phrases), the same kind of people now have almost completely reversed it. Differences are bad, all people should be the same, except just for surface things. Superficial differences are tolerated, as long as they are more "folklore" than deep differences, and are even encouraged, but only if they can be classified in "communities". If you're different but do not belong in any identified community that they have decided is "legit", you're screwed. Or if your difference is deeper than just your apperance, then you don't fit.

I think that's sort of called marxism 2.0, or something.

[ebastler]

Of course it does, because style and appearance is what defines your perception, not content.
To be honest, seeing how intolerant you are towards different opinions and viewpoints, I could not care any less of your perception of me.

Only one of us is constantly resorting to personal attacks in this exchange. If that all the "content" you got, so be it.

[james_s]

I have always perceived the moderation style to be a strength of this forum: Allowing all kinds of digressions, strong opinions, joking and teasing; but drawing a clear line at politics and religion. I found that policy to be valuable and important. It avoids discussions where fundamental differences of opinion lead to tensions between forum members which end up reaching beyond the specific thread.

Thank you, I'm fine. It's the discussion in this thread which I find cringeworthy. Suits the regular's table in a pub, but not this forum.

Religion has very little relevance to engineering, I have never worked in a company where it was talked about openly or where the company itself took a particular stand. That is still one area where most people seem to be pretty tolerant of others with differing views, sure there are exceptions but at least in my own experience it isn't something that has come up often.

Politics on the other hand are relevant, they have infiltrated nearly every facet of life these days so it's hard to talk about much of anything without some form of politics creeping in. Many companies now are very openly taking a side and there are groups actively hunting down those with dissenting views and trying to silence them and this is what I find disturbing. I would be more than happy to check politics at the door and not even discuss it at work, but unfortunately for not wanting to talk about politics I get accused of being "privileged". Not expressing an opinion or not taking a side is often not an option anymore. I have had to sit through numerous useless DEI training sessions where I'm told that I'm inherently racist and biased and at times made to feel deeply uncomfortable and excluded in the name of "inclusivity" and I'm not even what would typically be called conservative much less right wing. Like most companies we have a whole DEI department, an entire department of people whose job is inherently political. We are pressured to put our "preferred pronouns" in our email signatures, a concept I find completely absurd and insane. I have seen colleagues openly attacked and berated in online communication tools for even joking about supporting a politician or view that is not far left. The company I work for, like many others has openly racist and sexist hiring policies and even questioning this is risky to one's career. I would love if politics were irrelevant but I have been dragged into it to the point that discussing politics in some way is virtually inescapable.

Personally I view this forum as very much the table of regulars at the local pub and that's one of the things I like about it.

[tpowell1830]

We cannot discuss it here because forum rules forbid it. Amazingly moderators seem happy to also post on this thread.

Because this thread and topic is ultimately about our workplaces, our institutions, our universities etc And as previous threads on the same topic have discussed, engineering names, documentation, coding, etc. It infiltrates everything.

I understand that this is a thread about currently employed engineers, however, I am retired, retired in 2020 (didn't really want to at 66, but... reasons that I will skip). The company that I worked for was a very large aerospace company and the "woke" had already started oozing in everywhere. This was a group 80 engineers, working on a very large project. Being a senior design engineer, I was considered a greybeard (I even had one . There were at least 20% female engineers and I got along fine with them, however, there were a few that would push the agenda further and further, while management cowtowed. Many of the young female engineers would come and respectfully ask related engineering questions and I respectfully guided as I would with a male engineer. However, some of the seemingly "woke" young female engineers would act as if I was "acting patriarchael" and "mansplaining" and would say so. This is the responsibility of senior engineers to guide younger engineers toward understanding.. I did not understand this attitude (still don't).

At any rate, now that I am retired, I avoid interaction on social media (I have lots of time now...) because I don't want the headache. The fact that this is being allowed on this forum is NOT strictly political, but a place of open discussion and a place where a misconstrued meaning or a statement or word that is not allowed in open forums is not piled on by people who disagree with by name calling and shushing all over the place.

As Eevblog (Dave) said in his post, (and I am loosely paraphrasing) this is a place of safety for engineers, who are known to be outspoken when it comes to reality and scientific truth. I applaud Eevblog for allowing a little bit of pressure relief from engineers.

As far as women in the workforce, I have never been against it as long as merit is the prime mover. Engineering is a discipline and, often, people's lives are at stake from utilizing the product of engineers. The minute that there are quotas and other political factors that force hiring on immutable characteristics, such as gender or skin color, the industry as well as the entire world will suffer.

Ok, now you can pile on to all of the things that I said that was not politically correct... 

[nctnico]

@tpowell1830: In my experience working with other people, it doesn't always work out right out of the box due to personal and cultural differences. A good conversation usually clears the air unless one of the parties is convinced the others are after him/her.

[SiliconWizard]

Politics on the other hand are relevant, they have infiltrated nearly every facet of life these days so it's hard to talk about much of anything without some form of politics creeping in. Many companies now are very openly taking a side and there are groups actively hunting down those with dissenting views and trying to silence them and this is what I find disturbing. (...)

Indeed. That has become a real problem for employees who do not adhere to those new company policies.
If you can't stand it, you really have no choice except resign.

There's already been a trend for kinda "massive" resignation (the "Great Resignation :  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Resignation ), and those invading new policies are likely to trigger more resignations.

[james_s]

Indeed. That has become a real problem for employees who do not adhere to those new company policies.
If you can't stand it, you really have no choice except resign.

There's already been a trend for kinda "massive" resignation (the "Great Resignation :  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Resignation ), and those invading new policies are likely to trigger more resignations.

I am quite adept at the art of not giving a shit. I can smile, nod and go through the motions while quietly rolling my eyes at the time wasted in all the various mandatory training sessions and the bullshit the presenters spew forth. Studies have confirmed what I have long seen as obvious, these training sessions are not effective and if anything they breed resentment. The only people who take them seriously are the rabid activists that have already drank the kool-aid, everyone else knows they're a waste of time.

[emece67]

Knowing that someone else has different opinions or values than you do must be physically painful to you, seeing how much effort you are putting into silencing them.

I remind you, I'm happy to listen to what everyone has to say, as long as they use their own words and not someone elses.
It is you, T3sl4co1l, and emece67 that are demanding this thread be locked, because you do not want dissenting opinions or views to exist, and especially not written out anywhere on the internet.  Instead of ignoring the thread, you're spending an awful lot of effort to try and lock/cancel it.  Why?

Do you not see the irony here either?  That it is exactly the widespread behaviour you exhibit right now, that we are complaining about?

You do not know what my opinion about gender politics is, so you do not know if we're dissenting or not about them. And I have listened before to many political opinions (from all cardinal directions) much more radical than the ones on this thread, so there is no problem for me digesting them again.

What I do not like at all is that politics has been a topic that, on this forum, has not been allowed to last for much time, and threads have been closed and people have been banned for expressing their political opinions (what seems OK to me). But this time, where (according to you) there are only 2 people saying than this is not appropriate, and the other seem, more or less, to agree condemning some political positions, there's an agreement on that this thread is all OK. Sorry, I do not buy that.

So there are, on this thread, opinions "not written out anywhere on the internet" sure?  I am listening/reading opinions like these everyday, maybe you are not visiting the more appropriate sites (which is exactly my complaint, this is not the appropriate site). Sorry but to me smells as victimism.

My "awful lot of effort" on this thread is less than yours, in number of messages and I bet that also in words. And I bet that it is also less than the efforts from the OP and the forum owner, for example. The other person (according to you) "demanding this thread to be locked" has posted a single message. So there are (6 + 1) messages against 88, and such 7 messages are an "awful lot of effort", c'mon…

Maybe if Dave changes the forum rules from "religion, politics, gun and conspiracy theories. They are not welcome here." adding "except if such opinions agree with mine or with those of a selected group of members", I would not be belligerent at all.

[daqq]

I view diversity is an acceptable outcome, not an reasonable goal. When it becomes a goal, the situations it produces become absurd as can be seen in the world today. The people pushing for it as a goal are generally hypocritical to the extreme, spouting about discrimination, when all they do is treat people differently based on their race, gender and other arbitrary metrics.

If a company goes down this path, preferring ticking a box to actual suitability for the position update your CV. Best outcome: they find out that it's not worth it and stop with the bollocks.

[SiliconWizard]

Indeed. That has become a real problem for employees who do not adhere to those new company policies.
If you can't stand it, you really have no choice except resign.

There's already been a trend for kinda "massive" resignation (the "Great Resignation :  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Resignation ), and those invading new policies are likely to trigger more resignations.

I am quite adept at the art of not giving a shit. (...)

That is good. Not everyone manages that. Have you read this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Subtle_Art_of_Not_Giving_a_Fuck

[james_s]

What I do not like at all is that politics has been a topic that, on this forum, has not been allowed to last for much time, and threads have been closed and people have been banned for expressing their political opinions (what seems OK to me). But this time, where (according to you) there are only 2 people saying than this is not appropriate, and the other seem, more or less, to agree condemning some political positions, there's an agreement on that this thread is all OK. Sorry, I do not buy that.


Maybe if Dave changes the forum rules from "religion, politics, gun and conspiracy theories. They are not welcome here." adding "except if such opinions agree with mine or with those of a selected group of members", I would not be belligerent at all.

I don't see anybody directly attacking anyone else, things are remaining fairly civil. I'm not going to comment on your political views because I don't know and frankly I don't care, but I can see how some might make assumptions based on the way you are responding. Nobody is attacking you, however perhaps you feel attacked because you identify personally with some of the views that are being attacked? Nobody is forcing you to participate, if you find this thread not to be interesting then you are free to leave at any time, there are lots of other threads in the forum you might find more to your liking. If you want to stick around and share your thoughts then feel free, but don't try to dictate that everyone else must be silenced.

You are overlooking the most important rule of all and that is that this is Dave's sandbox and he runs the show. He sets the rules and he and those he delegates moderation duties to can arbitrarily decide what to allow and what not to, this rule supersedes all other rules that are in place. If he wants to allow a thread on a normally forbidden topic or lock a thread on something that is not explicitly against the rules he is within his rights to do that, however I have found the moderation to be more fair and reasonable here than on any other forum I have been on. Personally I see this particular political thread as something that is quite relevant to the field of engineering, especially for those of us in corporate jobs. That is not the case for a lot of political topics but it is for this.