Discussing the usage of the TEA thread

[tggzzz]

Since TEA is special and its participants may have special ideas it should have its own section.
It can also have its own spin off threads that can emerge elsewhere, like general, repair and main TE sections, if needed.

I offered to move it to it's own section with it's own moderator, but nobody involved has expressed interest in that.

There was just talk on the other TEA forum how wonderful it is having different threads instead of one big long thread.
Why on earth didn't someone just ask me to create a forum section for them where they could have done exactly that? 

EEVBlog Forum is much more than the therapy thread.

The therapy thread shouldn't have its own separate section, rules, and moderator. If it needs those, that is a good reason for it to be separate and not a forum-within-a-forum.

[sokoloff]

It’s entirely reasonable (and somewhat common) to have different moderators for different parts of a forum.

If the rules (or interpretation of those rules) is slightly stricter or more relaxed in different parts of the forum, that also feels fine to me.

If those choices result in a better outcome overall, I’d say they were pragmatic choices. I don’t see a need to have some Platonic ideally set of perfectly consistent rules, if variation and adaptation will yield a better result.

[EEVblog]

Since TEA is special and its participants may have special ideas it should have its own section.
It can also have its own spin off threads that can emerge elsewhere, like general, repair and main TE sections, if needed.

I offered to move it to it's own section with it's own moderator, but nobody involved has expressed interest in that.

There was just talk on the other TEA forum how wonderful it is having different threads instead of one big long thread.
Why on earth didn't someone just ask me to create a forum section for them where they could have done exactly that? 

EEVBlog Forum is much more than the therapy thread.

The therapy thread shouldn't have its own separate section, rules, and moderator. If it needs those, that is a good reason for it to be separate and not a forum-within-a-forum.

Based on the responses on the other forum it seems that the concensus is that most don't want to return, at least for the TEA part.
Sorry to hear, but that's fine, I wish them luck on their new forum. The TEA thread continues here without a bunch of regulars.
I've offered solutions and they remain open if they want to take me up on it, but I won't be spending any more time on this topic.

[tggzzz]

Based on the responses on the other forum it seems that the concensus is that most don't want to return, at least for the TEA part.
Sorry to hear, but that's fine, I wish them luck on their new forum. The TEA thread continues here without a bunch of regulars.
I've offered solutions and they remain open if they want to take me up on it, but I won't be spending any more time on this topic.

That's the appropriate course of action, IMHO.

There are faults on both "sides" as a result of some long-standing and deeply rooted differences.

Let's get over it, and "just be friends".

BTW, there was also a schism from TekScopes causing TekScopes2 to be formed. From the little I know, similar causes and consequences were involved.

Schisms happen; 'tis the way of the world.

[Black Phoenix]

I don't know about the rest of the users here, but I would leave the thread open for 24 hours more and after that close it and off we go with our live.

Both sides gave their reasons, explained their grudges and gave solutions trying to reach and agreement. Doors are open in both sides, so probably the best to let things take his course and time to make his work.

[EEVblog]

I don't know about the rest of the users here, but I would leave the thread open for 24 hours more and after that close it and off we go with our live.

I'm happy to leave it open, and said I would do that on the other forum in case any of them want to come back and continue the discussion.
But otherwise I agree, it's all been said for now. I don't hold any grudges at all, all are welcome back if they so choose.

[EEVblog]

BTW, there was also a schism from TekScopes causing TekScopes2 to be formed. From the little I know, similar causes and consequences were involved.

Is that the old Yahoo group?

[alm]

This happened when it was on Yahoo! Groups, but both groups migrated to groups.io a number of years ago.

[AVGresponding]

And in a particularly ironic twist, TEA seems to have degenerated into an off-topic discussion about software. That's me gone then...   

[Squarewave]

And in a particularly ironic twist, TEA seems to have degenerated into an off-topic discussion about software. That's me gone then...   

Software for test equipment though?

[capt bullshot]

And in a particularly ironic twist, TEA seems to have degenerated into an off-topic discussion about software. That's me gone then...   

What's wrong with that?
I just like responding to whatever triggers me, especially as I used to do here in TEA, so why should I do else there? There's always excursion happening, just as in real life - e.g. coffee machine talk at work, starting with some home improvement and ending with what's the best pizza in town (just an arbitrary example). Sometimes I just listen only, sometimes I go away. Everything fine, as long as it doesn't turn into religious wars ...
It doesn't really matter if it's here or there, though for some reasons (e.g. I'm just used to how the forum software works here, and have to change my "posting workflows" there), I'd prefer to stay here, but apparently most don't want to return for now. Let's see what happens and have some TEA in the meantime.

[AVGresponding]

It's just as off-topic as discussing what to wear to a ham-fest. And there's a sub-forum specifically for it here.

[pcprogrammer]

It is about software for making schematics of electronics, so since it was established that as long as it was electronics related it is considered on topic. Check it out there are pictures of electronics now.

But if you want it to go into its own thread in vintage computing, that is no problem, just throw it in the group. Remember self policing within the group.

You know what let met start the thread and see if vince will follow.

Like in that movie "you build it, and they will come" Can't remember the title though.

[mnementh]

Dave, one snarling aardvark does not speak for all of us, any more than does one sad, weary tinkerdwagon. Please note that I started and ended my response to you with words to the effect of "please continue actual negotiations..." and bitseeker (the founder and closest thing any of us have to a leader) has kept the channels of communication open.

The TEAnonymous thread, like many things about any online community, "just happened". It was a bit of a mess, but it was our mess and we knew where the sinkholes were and mostly how to work around them. We didn't set out to make it happen... we just started hanging out there, because we felt safe letting it all hang out in that little corner of the internet. Part of that was the fact we mostly flew under the radar; but part of it was the whole "nerd herd" thing.

        We always felt that under it all, the people who ran the place were fellow nerds, and no matter what, we'd be safe there.

        Until we weren't.

    Surely by saying "flew under the radar" you knew very well that all your off-topic talk would one day get you in trouble, as it was against the rules of the forum. And you are surprised that one day it got so off-topic that a bunch of fellow nerds complained? And IIRC, some of the people on this new group are actually in the list of reporters.

    Again, I have created "special" groups for others in the past, like the cooking group. You could have just come to me and asked to have your own forum section and moderator, but no one ever did, you kept "flying under the radar" in one big prominent thread. Heck it could have been an invite only group.

I appreciate any and all legitimate attempts to negotiate with the community, even at this late date, but I refuse to validate the OFF-TOPIC argument in this context. This argument is pure diversion from one key point:

At the end of the day, it is the moderators' job to ACTIVELY identify OT threads and move them to the correct OT location if they start to become a problem in the main areas of discussion; not pin them to the top of a technical sub-forum and then use that as an excuse to start filleting the thread for being OT.

The flip side of your argument of "nobody asked to move the thread" (even though I most certainly did, and have shown so) is: not one member of the management bothered to investigate... to ASK WTF was going on before making a dog's breakfast of our community.

So still a colossal failure to moderate.

Please just let us have a bit of rest. Continuing to beleaguer us in this fashion while we're licking our wounds in the space we went to get away from it all will not improve morale in the least bit.

Following us here with yet another dose of the same old "it was your fault all along" argument hardly feels like taking any responsibility for that colossal failure to moderate, nor does it fill any of us with confidence that future moderation will be any better.

And it certainly does not help rebuild that feeling of safety which was lost.

Thank you for your time, and please continue with actual negotiations;

mnem
*weary*

I'm going to ask again:

All we ever wanted was to be left alone to play. If you place the TEAnonymous thread in the correct OT section, where it will not be bludgeoning those interested in On-Topic discussions, some of us might begin to peek in and contribute from time to time, once the bruises start to fade and the cuts stop bleeding. If it is made clear to the "complainers" that TEANonymous is an OT thread and complaints purely about OT will be given exactly as much consideration as such frivolous complaints deserve, that would be a great start.

If the complainers want to have a purely ON-TOPIC discussion about TE and their TE projects, let them start such a thread instead of taking it away from the community who started TEAnonymous.

We already did as you asked regarding the usual 3rd rail topics; even when we did touch on such points we made very certain it was only briefly and did not become long conversation. That I feel is a reasonable compromise.

I loved the TEAnonymous thread... it was where my friends were, and it was where we played, and it was where I kept my toys. But as long as we have the threat of wholesale moderation of content simply for being OT hanging over our heads, we will not feel it is safe to just play... particularly when I compare what we posted to current content. 

Thanks again for your time,

mnem

[tggzzz]

BTW, there was also a schism from TekScopes causing TekScopes2 to be formed. From the little I know, similar causes and consequences were involved.

Is that the old Yahoo group?

Yes. Both of them

Actually I don't know whether the schism occurred on Yahoo or groups.io. And I don't care

[PA0PBZ]

I suggested to move the thread to the chat section, and maybe even change the name to make it clear what it is about, but Dave responded that he could not see how that would change things. I'd like to have you guys back here, I just hate or don't dig the groups.io interface. As far as I can see there's no unread messages thing or maybe I'm just too stupid to find it. Yeah, I miss the coffee corner talk in a linear thread, but nothing I can do about it I guess...

[PlainName]

I'm going to ask again:

You know he probably doesn't see late responses, particularly when a thread has moved on. Why not just email the guy instead of grandstanding? At least there is a better chance of him reading it and you can talk mano et mano without having to pander to an audience.

[Kosmic]

I just hate or don't dig the groups.io interface. As far as I can see there's no unread messages thing or maybe I'm just too stupid to find it. Yeah, I miss the coffee corner talk in a linear thread, but nothing I can do about it I guess...

Try this 

https://groups.io/g/tea/message/731

[sokoloff]

It is about software for making schematics of electronics, so since it was established that as long as it was electronics related it is considered on topic.

There's no question it's on-topic for EEVBlog. The question is whether it's more appropriate for the EDA forum tree.

(I don't have any opinion on the matter; I'm just trying to connect the points of view.)

[Specmaster]

<snip>
Somebody wondered why TEA repair is not in repair sections.
For that bd said once that there's no sense to have a thread to say I changed a diode.
And if med is restoring old Tek there's nothing unusual that something needs to be repaired.
TEA is different.
<snip>

There are many actual repairs that were posted bit by bit as the various stages were carried out, in the TEA thread and at the same time, also posted in a dedicated thread in the "repair" section, so for many of the repairs in TEA that were spread across multiple pages, often separated by days, weeks or more, all dependent on the availability of spares or while seeking another donor carcass to rob parts from to make a working item from 2 or more items. As these parts showed up, another installment of the repair would be posted into the TEA thread and the dedicated thread in repair section, so people who use the search facility should be able to locate that particular repair with the sections all in chronological order without all the other getting in the way.

Its not rocket science, I've used the search system for information that I needed on some repairs.

[Specmaster]

I'm going to ask again:

You know he probably doesn't see late responses, particularly when a thread has moved on. Why not just email the guy instead of grandstanding? At least there is a better chance of him reading it and you can talk mano et mano without having to pander to an audience.

I can't speak for mnementh, BUT off the top of my head I could surmise that considering this thread was opened by admin, I suspect that it fair to assume that admin would be monitoring it? Also by posting the question / proposal publicly like this, it enables anyone keen to understand what is going on to see for themselves. If an agreement was reached mano et mano then there is every chance that might cause resentment here on this forum and Chinese whispers would result and then everything blows up because some members might think that TEA originals were getting special treatment.

When EEV admin come over to the other forum, everything is conducted in the same open fashion, so the original members can see exactly what is being discussed, neither TEA here or tea@groups.io want to derail any plans that might work for the benefit of everybody. One thing is for sure, none of the original TEA members who build the thread up wanted this to happen, so please give the 2 top people some breathing space and lets be friends at least.

[PlainName]

so please give the 2 top people some breathing space and lets be friends at least.

Who would they be? Dave and bitseeker?

[bitseeker]

No worries. Dave offered options, everyone deliberated, posted or emailed to me their feedback, I spent a couple of days analyzing both the quantitative and qualitative aspects, and concluded that TEA should continue as an independent entity. Everyone can of course go where they like. I'm still around, as are others, but TEA has moved.

Since the move, the group has exploded with activity and, with the new capabilities at our disposal, despite there being an even larger volume of posts, it's much easier to find all the threads that are related to follow or ignore as one desires. Whereas before, I couldn't even keep up with conversations, now I can.

Change is hard. Starting something anew is hard, too.

"Try and fail, but don’t fail to try." – Stephen Kaggwa

[EEVblog]

Since the move, the group has exploded with activity and, with the new capabilities at our disposal, despite there being an even larger volume of posts, it's much easier to find all the threads that are related to follow or ignore as one desires. Whereas before, I couldn't even keep up with conversations, now I can.

Thanks for the reply.
Hopefully people can see that's why many people who were part of it wanted the moderators to keep the thread on track.
You can't really have one big popular thread like that and allow countless off-topic chatter, it ultimately just doesn't really work.
Break it down into smaller topic based threads and you can allow a decent amount of off-topic chatter and it doesn't really impact things.

It's like having an email based list group, once it gets big enough volume then you can't have it as a single big list any more, you need to move to a thread based forum structure.

[EEVblog]

*weary*

I'm going to ask again:

All we ever wanted was to be left alone to play. If you place the TEAnonymous thread in the correct OT section, where it will not be bludgeoning those interested in On-Topic discussions, some of us might begin to peek in and contribute from time to time, once the bruises start to fade and the cuts stop bleeding. If it is made clear to the "complainers" that TEANonymous is an OT thread and complaints purely about OT will be given exactly as much consideration as such frivolous complaints deserve, that would be a great start.

If the complainers want to have a purely ON-TOPIC discussion about TE and their TE projects, let them start such a thread instead of taking it away from the community who started TEAnonymous.

We already did as you asked regarding the usual 3rd rail topics; even when we did touch on such points we made very certain it was only briefly and did not become long conversation. That I feel is a reasonable compromise.

I loved the TEAnonymous thread... it was where my friends were, and it was where we played, and it was where I kept my toys. But as long as we have the threat of wholesale moderation of content simply for being OT hanging over our heads, we will not feel it is safe to just play... particularly when I compare what we posted to current content. 

Again, for probably the dozenth time now, this all blew up while I wasn't watching. I literally came in one day to find everyone had taken their bat and ball and gone home.

Because I didn't know it was all happening, there was absolutely nothing I could have done unless someone alterted me to the concerns, and sadly no one did. If they did then I would have offered what I have offered now, your own space with your own moderator, or something. I understand exactly what you are saying, I really do, but that does no good when it's after the fact of people leaving, I can't do anything about it now.

The problem is that it seems that everyone in TEA assumed that I knew what was going on and I was secretely watching and ignoring it all from the sidelines and lettign it all happen.
So please, in the future anyone else who is having issues like this on the forum, email me directly with your concerns. If someone had simply done that then I think all this could have been averted.
I know to you this sounds like I'm just blaming you and the others, but that's not the case, it's simply the facts of the circumstances of how all this went down.