Discussing the usage of the TEA thread

[Brumby]

And a poll, seriously and after the fact. 
And you think poll results are to be a true and accurate representation of members views ?
A week ago it sure would have been a fine idea but now the horse has bolted after excessive use of the whip.

I think now is the most appropriate time to ask the question.

We have had an incident which has brought it all into the forefront of our thinking, with real examples and hard decisions being made.  Before this, I think you would have gotten an overwhelming response that the Mods were doing a great job ... because there wasn't much to judge.

[tggzzz]

Forums which prevent nested quotes also prevent discussion of subtle points where the context matters.

You mean in your opinion. In my opinion it doesn't.  Nothing prevents your discussion of subtle points except you.

I've tried forums without nested quotes, and stopped using them because the threads can only contain trivial information and are fundamentally boring. Prime example: edaboard. Secondary example: stackexchange, which is only useful for "how do I turn the rubbat 64 degrees clockwise in Squirdle v4.3?"

I disagree. You just have to want to do a little more work instead of being lazy like you did in your response. Nested quoting is most often IMHO an act of laziness. All that has been written before is in the thread to be read. If you want people to read non-trivial responses work at it.

See what I mean - I did just what I wanted exactly and precisely without nested quoting like you did in your response. 

Oh. Good. Grief.

Someone positing that because a tool can be used poorly, such a tool has no benefits and hence everybody should be prevented using it wisely.

Plus someone who asserts a different tool is good, without also mentioning the limited conditions under which that is true.

I expect better from you.

[Brumby]

Upon reflection, I should probably have saved my observations about the poll until it had been closed.  As it stands, I have provided information that may influence people before they cast their vote, thus skewing the result.  This is exactly the reason why you have to vote before you can see the result.  (I suppose another reason is to garner votes: You want to see? Vote first!)

[Ed.Kloonk]

Upon reflection, I should probably have saved my observations about the poll until it had been closed.  As it stands, I have provided information that may influence people before they cast their vote, thus skewing the result.  This is exactly the reason why you have to vote before you can see the result.  (I suppose another reason is to garner votes: You want to see? Vote first!)

Hmm. Interfering with votes.

Hang him!

[tggzzz]

Poll:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/tea-moderation-poll/

Polls are a very blunt tool, that often obscure more than they reveal.

The results are often misinterpreted, or even actively misused. A classic problem "the tyranny of the majority", where the opinion of the majority is used as justification for stomping on the minority.

For the avoidance of doubt, I know that is not your intention. But there is a lot of hyperventilating at the moment, and the results could be misinterpreted by such people.

Hence I will not take part in the poll, and have no idea whether the results concur or conflict with my views.

[tautech]

And a poll, seriously and after the fact. 
And you think poll results are to be a true and accurate representation of members views ?
A week ago it sure would have been a fine idea but now the horse has bolted after excessive use of the whip.

I think now is the most appropriate time to ask the question.

When those that might be most affected by the outcome have already left this forum with a bad taste in their mouth to take their knowledge and contributions elsewhere ?
While it might seem to be engaging with the TEA members the poll outcome only represents the remaining and as such is a CYA move.

Like any statistic since time began it can be crafted to misrepresent the truth.

[Brumby]

The fact some members have moved elsewhere is unfortunate - but I fail to see how a poll before the upheaval would have signalled anything.

[tggzzz]

The fact some members have moved elsewhere is unfortunate - but I fail to see how a poll before the upheaval would have signalled anything.

Polls are blunt tools, that obscure as much as they reveal.

(Unless they support my biasses, in which case they are the best thing since sliced bread)

[bsfeechannel]

SO - next time people want to throw a tantrum at Mod action, just take a step back and realise that where you may feel one way, there will be others who feel the exact opposite.  The Mods have to operate at the balance point, so please cut them some slack if they don't meet YOUR personal expectations!

In the light of this it is very clear that the Mods have been acting in the very best interests of the EEVblog IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE COLLECTIVE PREFERENCE OF ITS MEMBERS.  Some of you may want to argue the point, but the poll makes this extremely clear.

I've been modded two times during all the time I've been here. By Dave himself. He deleted part of my posts he deemed inappropriate. Because I'd dedicated many hours to this forum, I could have very well felt myself entitled to protest. Instead, I understood that this is a community and that I need to know my limits. So I apologized and have enjoyed a happy coexistence with no hard feelings towards any members of the forum or the mods.

I didn't realize there was any moderation anywhere on this forum :-).  And no I'm not joking.  There are many times when I've wished a mod would take some action. (I used to be a mod on a much larger forum)

Mods here are like a sleeping dragon. And we learn from Harry Potter that a sleeping dragon should never be tickled.

[tautech]

The fact some members have moved elsewhere is unfortunate - but I fail to see how a poll before the upheaval would have signalled anything.

Really ?
Properly done it would have plainly signaled the moderators were properly serious about doing something and those that have gone to greener pastures would have been able to signal their thoughts although as it happens the outcome may not have changed, at least they would've felt consulted and a poll taken then would have be properly representative.

[Brumby]

So - are you suggesting a poll should have been taken during the period of trauma before any action?

That was not made clear.

[EEVblog]

A gentle reminder to a full-quoter is sometimes good. They may have never thought about it before. And as always, leding by example is the best way on the forum.

I'm a bit shy of doing that, I don't post often in that thread and don't want to be seen as the wise guy that's going to tell people what to do, but I guess you are right and I should have.

Yes, you never know when someone might be triggered by such a polite reminder. I've seen it go both ways from "oh, didn't think about that, yeah, makes sense, thanks" to rage quitting.

[gnif]

Yes, you never know when someone might be triggered by such a polite reminder. I've seen it go both ways from "oh, didn't think about that, yeah, makes sense, thanks" to rage quitting.

Dave, please refrain from full quoting in future... 
Sorry, couldn't resist

On topic though: Please see the addendum I added to the poll thread, this addresses the claims that some are making on the TEA groups forum that moderators can see who voted.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/tea-moderation-poll/msg4386622/#msg4386622

[EEVblog]

So perhaps the best way to resolve the current turmoil would be to remove the sticky thread and let it return to becoming just another thread under the generic Test Equipment banner were it would become one of the other 482 threads in that section?

Possible. Who thinks that's a good idea?
Maybe it's better to have a Sticky "Ask your general test equipment question here" thread? Although the whole idea of a forum is to have different threads for specific questions, so that's kinda counter to that.

[EEVblog]

A gentle reminder to a full-quoter is sometimes good. They may have never thought about it before. And as always, leding by example is the best way on the forum.

When I had an SMF forum I got so tired of the nested quotes I used the feature below. Fixed that mess real good ...

Post Settings

This page of the administration center contains some settings regarding the posting of messages on your forum.
Enable/Disable Settings

    Remove nested quotes when posting - This will only show the quote of the post in question, not any quoted posts from that post

Ooh, I didn't know that existed. I can really see the value in that. But on the other hand there is alos value in responsible use of nested quoting, and I'd personally likely find it annoying if I didn't have that option any more.

[EEVblog]

Often it's some big embedded youtube video that takes up a ton of visual space for absolutely no reason.

So what is that old saying.....a picture says a thousand words yet if we are to expressly follow your lead and not clutter the forum with a tonne of wasted visual space we'd not be linking any of your videos into posts. 


And a poll, seriously and after the fact. 
And you think poll results are to be a true and accurate representation of members views ?
A week ago it sure would have been a fine idea but now the horse has bolted after excessive use of the whip.

You are consistently one of the most antagonistic members on this forum, especially towards me. I saw what you said in the other TEA forum. And here you having another shot at me again even though I'm trying to sort this out. As a result, your opinion means very little to me, not that there is value at all in what you just posted, it's just slagging me off.

[beanflying]

The fact some members have moved elsewhere is unfortunate - but I fail to see how a poll before the upheaval would have signalled anything.

Really ?
Properly done it would have plainly signaled the moderators were properly serious about doing something and those that have gone to greener pastures would have been able to signal their thoughts although as it happens the outcome may not have changed, at least they would've felt consulted and a poll taken then would have be properly representative.

Enough with your select retelling of this. The initial reason for this was completely off topic Bullshit that got modded. You continuing to stir the pot here and elsewhere including disparaging Dave and the mods as some sort of wedge to curry favour with the problem children is out of order so pull your head in!

This Forum is not a democracy as I have already stated but You, I and others have raised fair points in the past when aggressive postings by a mod was done in particular where they injected their opinions into the subject to increase the temperature allowing them to hit the ban hammer. This is not the case here and if anything so much rope was given that one or two in particular seemed to feel emboldened to carry on a public fight over a few weeks over what was a 'request' from Dave to get it more on track after the initial content was stripped.

This initial re entry into the TEA thread was as a result of a slab of very off topic content no more and no less, there is/was and won't be anything conspiratorial about it other than some of the other member of this forum were pissed off enough to hit the moderation button, this is as this and all forums should be. Got a problem or see one of the RULES being bent out outright and flagrantly being broken hit the button.

TEA has had a location for really off topic rambling for a while long before this but the more I think of that the more I see those same ramblers brought that totally off topic content back here. The TEA thread is not a place to discuss your bunions or politics or guns ..... But as it always was a bit of OT was always the 'normal' but until more recently never the 'majority'

Leave the 'alternate facts' to places like Faux News and if that is to hard then you know where the door is.

If TEA gets 'special status' not under the rules then the entire forum will just point next time another topic goes OT and see you allow it over here but .... Seriously bad idea.

[gnif]

So perhaps the best way to resolve the current turmoil would be to remove the sticky thread and let it return to becoming just another thread under the generic Test Equipment banner were it would become one of the other 482 threads in that section?

Possible. Who thinks that's a good idea?
Maybe it's better to have a Sticky "Ask your general test equipment question here" thread? Although the whole idea of a forum is to have different threads for specific questions, so that's kinda counter to that.

I honestly think that the thread should be left sticky for a bit longer, but lock it and post a final post that redirects to a new thread which is to become the new sticky thread, with clearly defined rules and has been created by a mod/admin, ideally Dave as moderators come and go. This way the thread would be "owned" by someone who has the explicit right to (and in turn assigned moderators on behalf of Dave) state things have gone too far off topic.

As for maintaining an index of equipment/topics on the first post, not sure about that. If something posted warrants an index, perhaps it should be a new thread in itself which can point to the posts in the thread it's related to. In any case we no longer have anyone maintaining the index that bitseeker created and it will fall into disrepair.

[EEVblog]

This initial re entry into the TEA thread was as a result of a slab of very off topic content no more and no less, there is/was and won't be anything conspiratorial about it other than some of the other member of this forum were pissed off enough to hit the moderation button, this is as this and all forums should be. Got a problem or see one of the RULES being bent out outright and flagrantly being broken hit the button.

TEA has had a location for really off topic rambling for a while long before this but the more I think of that the more I see those same ramblers brought that totally off topic content back here. The TEA thread is not a place to discuss your bunions or politics or guns ..... But as it always was a bit of OT was always the 'normal' but until more recently never the 'majority'

What I find absolutely remarkable and incredibly confusing is how some people have supposed left over the off-topic moderation, and have gone to another thread where the ruels are literally, and I quote:

"TEA does not permit discussions of contentious topics which include, but are not limited to, politics, religion, race, sensitive current events, etc. In other words, we're all here to enjoy camaraderie based on test equipment and electronics, not to start conflicts. To that end, off-topic discussions are to be expected, but don't derail the main subject of someone's thread."

Seriously, how on earth are we supposed to respond to this in any way that would make people happy?
We have practically the exact same rules and policy here!

I honestly find this baffling, and no one is able to explain it to me in any way that makes sense.
If "the other TEA forum" had a free-for-all anything goes rule set then I can understand, but it doesn't.

[EEVblog]

So perhaps the best way to resolve the current turmoil would be to remove the sticky thread and let it return to becoming just another thread under the generic Test Equipment banner were it would become one of the other 482 threads in that section?

Possible. Who thinks that's a good idea?
Maybe it's better to have a Sticky "Ask your general test equipment question here" thread? Although the whole idea of a forum is to have different threads for specific questions, so that's kinda counter to that.

I honestly think that the thread should be left sticky for a bit longer, but lock it and post a final post that redirects to a new thread which is to become the new sticky thread, with clearly defined rules and has been created by a mod/admin, ideally Dave as moderators come and go.

I don't want to lock the TEA thread, I think that's a bad idea. Heaps of people still enjoy it. It's just that a handful of people (9 according to the poll) are fed up enough with the moderation of the TEA thread to leave the forum or think about leaving the forum over it.
I'm happy to back off somewhat from the TEA thread, and if people want to post video responses to show their mood status, then so be it, that doesn't impact the rest of the forum.

But I agree with others that we can't let it become a free-for-all thread with zero rules, as it will be quickly become know as the "No moderation thread" and people with that itching to talk about all the normally banned stuff will just head there and ruin it even more, and that spills over into the forum.
People realise this, and it's why the "other TEA forum" has almost the exact same off-topic rules as we have here.

[wilfred]

This poll, like others before, are the views of a small sample that is self selecting. Hard to see the results as representative of the forum membership. Thousands of members yet mere dozens of responses. I won't vote just because I see it as validating a flawed method. Maybe others feel likewise.

In the end, depending on who votes, it might just be the vocal minority who gets to decide matters and that seems to be one of the issues.

Then again I don't read the TEA thread as I always thought of it as a sandpit where those who entered would be doing so knowing full well that it was a place to socialise around a shared interest. It seemed to work.

It should never have been a sticky though as I think they should be left for threads with info relevant for the entire forum or sub-board.

I also think social threads as someone else mentioned are not confined to the TEA thread and just go to illustrate that the members are social animals that like to gather for more than just on topic technical matters. You need to accommodate both needs.

[EEVblog]

I'm surprised no one has started the "On-topic only Test Equipment Anonymous thread"
Then those who want to be strictly on-topic moderated can live in that thread, and those who want to post their every mood can do so in the existing TEA thread.
I'd even be happy to appoint an extra moderator for the test equipment section so they can keep that new thread on track.

[EEVblog]

This poll, like others before, are the views of a small sample that is self selecting. Hard to see the results as representative of the forum membership. Thousands of members yet mere dozens of responses. I won't vote just because I see it as validating a flawed method. Maybe others feel likewise.

That's because the vast majority fo user don't give a rats about the TEA thread. AFAIK TEA is mostly contributed to be a few dozen members. They are just incredibly active there.

The "self selective" nature of the poll is actually an advantage, because only those with a vested interest in the TEA thread will be the ones voting.

It should never have been a sticky though as I think they should be left for threads with info relevant for the entire forum or sub-board.

The sticky could indeed have been mistake, as it would help newbies come into it thinking it's the place the ask questions, when untimately is seem to be the place a few dozen ver yactive members hang out and shoot the breeze about test equipment (mostly).

[Ed.Kloonk]

It's just that a handful of people (9 according to the poll) are fed up enough with the moderation of the TEA thread to leave the forum or think about leaving the forum over it.

I'd be willing to wager that they won't anyway. Most ppl like that are full of shit.

[Brumby]

I don't want to lock the TEA thread, I think that's a bad idea.Heaps of people still enjoy it.

I wholeheartedly agree.

It's just that a handful of people (9 according to the poll) are fed up enough with the moderation of the TEA thread to leave the forum or think about leaving the forum over it.

The Moderators will always get the blame - but that is because they are the public face of the rest of the membership when that membership says "enough". .... and that's not even taking into account the attitude of those who's self-righteousness and "entitlement" ignored the historical precepts and requests to ease back.

I'm happy to back off somewhat from the TEA thread, and if people want to post video responses to show their mood status, then so be it, that doesn't impact the rest of the forum.

Back to what it was would be nice - where people would apologise for their excess and move on.  Hopefully with not too many videos.

But I agree with others that we can't let it become a free-for-all thread with zero rules, as it will be quickly become know as the "No moderation thread" and people with that itching to talk about all the normally banned stuff will just head there and ruin it even more, and that spills over into the forum.

Yeah.  Nah.  People just need to be considerate of the community as a whole - and if we can operate within the formal boundaries, then it's a much richer place.

People realise this, and it's why the "other TEA forum" has almost the exact same off-topic rules as we have here.

Funny about that.

Some may argue it's one thing to have rules - but another as to how you apply them.  To those I would ask ... So what do you do when you take the gently, gently approach and get the finger in response?