Discussing the usage of the TEA thread

[tggzzz]

Is it impossible for someone to ever have a good opinion if it's different to someone with, say, 10 posts more?

Not impossible however with considerably less credibility than a member with 100+.

I disagree here. The number of postings says nothing about the quality of the content. Nor does the length of a post.

One has to evaluate each member on the content of posts made, and sure it will become more clear after a number of posts if someone is capable of providing valuable content. Still no guarantee for good quality posts all the time.

Agreed.

It can be necessary to add in the context in which posts were made. That's a problem for the mods, since it requires spending their (valuable limited) time searching through history.

[pcprogrammer]

It can be necessary to add in the context in which posts were made. That's a problem for the mods, since it requires spending their (valuable limited) time searching through history.

You are right, context also matters. This is something people that make complaints have if they take the time to read instead of jumping to the gun. And on a forum this big with so few moderators, you can't expect the moderators to be up to speed on everything.

The problem with these things is there are always two sides of the medal. As you can see a few posts back I looked back to see what happened in the thread and it is impossible to know what exactly went wrong, because a lot of the content has been replaced by "off topic, so removed" statements, but what I can't understand is the unwillingness to just refrain from the to far off topic stuff. And the members involved know what it was. Also gnif mentioned, in his maybe slip of the tongue, that the 15+ members that complained had 1000+ posts. So no newbies

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/discussing-the-usage-of-the-tea-thread/msg4376107/#msg4376107

I also see the blame game being played on both sides. Just had a look on the new site and see a lot of finger pointing, but never towards themselves, at least some of them. Time will tell how things will evolve in both places. Wonder who is moderating on the new place and how quick it gets out of hand, or not. Unless all the complainers from within stayed here, there will still be people that don't like all the off topic stuff, whatever that stuff may be. And trolls might creep in and have to be dealt with too.

[GreyWoolfe]

thank you for the kind words.

Yeah mate, the best wishes for the recovery.

Many thanks also, BP.

[tautech]

Also gnif mentioned, in his maybe slip of the tongue, that the 15+ members that complained had 1000+ posts. So no newbies

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/discussing-the-usage-of-the-tea-thread/msg4376107/#msg4376107

That he did not say.
Go back and study the link you presented and the context gnif's comments are made in.

The 15+ members are those that were offering support about the moderators efforts.

[Brumby]

As tautech has highlighted, we have perfect example of something being mis-read and creating a bag of discussion that has no foundation in fact - but continues with a life of its own.

Please!  This is extremely counterproductive and perpetuating the thought that any mod released such information is nigh unto criminal.


Unless specific and unambiguous examples can be cited to prove to the contrary, I suggest those who got it wrong simply apologise and let it go.  We all make mistakes.

[Brumby]

As someone else pointed out the number 15+ was in a post of gnif.

Context?

And just to kill some time (too tired to work on my project) I tracked back in the thread to page 5223 and looked at who posted in the time up to and little beyond the moderator step in.

Code: [Select]

bd139
wolfgang
tggzzz
med6753
bu508a
cerebus
mnementh
robert763
specmaster
factory
soundtech-lg
capt bullshot
mansaxel
cubdriver
vince
zenith
25 cps
vk6zgo
zoli
bitseeker
saskia
brumby
tautech
dl6lr


What's that all about?  It's like trying to describe submarine activity by reporting all the ships on the surface.

24 members and from these only a few who have high activity rates. Compared to 15+ complainers the numbers start to look a bit more grim I would say.

Where did this number of complainers come from?


Look, I get that we all have a curiosity about the ins and outs of what happened, but for those of us who have been involved with the TEA thread for any length of time, what happened overall is no real mystery.

You are never going to get accurate data of the nature of what has been speculated above, so I would suggest its time to give it a rest.  If you have "unanswered questions" then I highly recommend you make peace with them and move on.

[pcprogrammer]

Also gnif mentioned, in his maybe slip of the tongue, that the 15+ members that complained had 1000+ posts. So no newbies

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/discussing-the-usage-of-the-tea-thread/msg4376107/#msg4376107

That he did not say.
Go back and study the link you presented and the context gnif's comments are made in.

The 15+ members are those that were offering support about the moderators efforts.

Rereading gnif's post you can see that these members wanted the problem resolved. That is not offering support, that is requesting a solution.

No complainers, many frequent (15+ so far) users with 1000+ posts explaining their desire to see this resolved.

As to Brumby's questions:

Context?

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/discussing-the-usage-of-the-tea-thread/msg4383196/#msg4383196
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/discussing-the-usage-of-the-tea-thread/msg4383487/#msg4383487

What's that all about?  It's like trying to describe submarine activity by reporting all the ships on the surface.

It is a list of members that shows who have been posting in the TEA thread in the time of the alleged problem postings. In light of the number of people requesting the issue resolved, I was interested in seeing how many members were actually active in the thread, because of the talk about it being unfair that so few got the power to influence the lives of so many. Where in fact it is just about a small group that is bothered by it.

Where did this number of complainers come from?

See above. My bad for calling them complainers where I should have called them requester to get things sorted.

Look, I get that we all have a curiosity about the ins and outs of what happened, but for those of us who have been involved with the TEA thread for any length of time, what happened overall is no real mystery.

You are never going to get accurate data of the nature of what has been speculated above, so I would suggest its time to give it a rest.  If you have "unanswered questions" then I highly recommend you make peace with them and move on.

It is just my natural curiosity that has an interest in analyzing this. Kind of a social study 

[wilfred]

I was interested in seeing how many members were actually active in the thread, because of the talk about it being unfair that so few got the power to influence the lives of so many. Where in fact it is just about a small group that is bothered by it.

It is just my natural curiosity that has an interest in analyzing this. Kind of a social study 

That's not unique to the TEA thread. Some years ago I had similar questions and there were a spate of threads similar to the "diversity etc" thread active now. So I extracted the posters and the frequency to find out just how widespread the activity therein was across the total members on the forum. I'd consistently find 50% or more of posts in a thread were the top 10 by frequency with EEVBLOG at the top. I wouldn't be surprised to find similar results today.

I was trying to see just why there was such a proliferation (at that time) of threads mired in social (in)justice and/or politics when both were OT and frowned upon. I came to the conclusion in spite of closing these threads down and moderating them publicly Dave in fact has quite a bit of interest in the subject. So it will never end.

Dave has said this in the Diversity thread

Is there an active forum thread where old-timers and newbies can share stories and advice?  That would be fun, and we're dragging this one into major thread-drift.

I don't think so?
Feel free to start one, it's technically off-topic but I think it's interesting.

We all know US politics is bullshit... and hot things are hot... let's not stray off-topic.

How do you suggest we discuss identity politics, without politics?

We could also all agree that the general poltics side of it is done, and just keep it to engineering industry related matters and/or personal stories and advice going forward maybe?
The OP is after all after advice and is sharing his personal story.

So the small group that has a tendency to run these threads on at some length know quite well Dave is very lenient on them and in seeking to avoid quickly clamping down on them. Hence even those who only read them can't help but pick up on the zeitgeist as far as politics is concerned. Dave even finds it hard to avoid politics in his live streams. That's a better place for them but it still sends the mixed message.

And  in the past I have also formed the belief that it is always a very small number of members who will pile in on threads they see drifting in an unwelcome direction. So I'd tend to agree with the observation "about it being unfair that so few got the power to influence the lives of so many". It has always been that way. The few generally being frequent contributors seem to carry a good deal of influence over others.

[pcprogrammer]

You are absolutely right that when Dave is on board things get way more leniency, but it is mostly in dedicated threads, at least for as far as I have seen and been around, so the burden on the "general public" is way less. When you have no interest in the subject just stay away from the thread. And it is just that the TEA thread has so many different topics still within the general theme that a lot of members like to check what is being written and then get frustrated due to so much "crap" to wade through.

Things like "I went to see this movie and it was not to my expectation" can hardly be seen on topic when it comes to test equipment addiction, even though it might be therapeutic for the poster in question.

And  in the past I have also formed the belief that it is always a very small number of members who will pile in on threads they see drifting in an unwelcome direction. So I'd tend to agree with the observation "about it being unfair that so few got the power to influence the lives of so many". It has always been that way. The few generally being frequent contributors seem to carry a good deal of influence over others.

And yes, when you turn the table round it is indeed a small group with their attitude of this thread is ours affecting many others. Well I think order has been restored. Hopefully the members who left will still share some of their time to share their knowledge here to help the ones with need for it.

[m k]

Also gnif mentioned, in his maybe slip of the tongue, that the 15+ members that complained had 1000+ posts. So no newbies

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/discussing-the-usage-of-the-tea-thread/msg4376107/#msg4376107

That he did not say.
Go back and study the link you presented and the context gnif's comments are made in.

The 15+ members are those that were offering support about the moderators efforts.

Today my head missed "No complainers" part and had combined the numbers reply "feeling" with one earlier one that didn't have those numbers.

Mixed message will be one permanent originator of these things.
First you read and then maybe think that maybe you should give something back and contribute a bit.
Later it goes upside down, your involvement and contribution becomes a primary thing.
Then soup is ready when earlier invisible staff hops in.

Since self moderation can only work if all parties are willingly obeying dedicated moderators among contributors can be one solution.
Must be more than one and more than one must accept the action, from different time zones would also be nice.
Their somehow soften status wouldn't be bad either, maybe one(1st) blue square would do the trick.
Contributing member with blue square would remind the presence of moderation even if never active.

BTW,
didn't expect 3rd square comes back before 2^10.
(sort of science and all)

[Brumby]

What's that all about?  It's like trying to describe submarine activity by reporting all the ships on the surface.

It is a list of members that shows who have been posting in the TEA thread in the time of the alleged problem postings. In light of the number of people requesting the issue resolved, I was interested in seeing how many members were actually active in the thread, because of the talk about it being unfair that so few got the power to influence the lives of so many. Where in fact it is just about a small group that is bothered by it.

I submit that there were far more people "bothered" by it.  They just hadn't reached the point of putting pen to paper.  Dismissing the silent majority is not consistent with your assertion of "in fact" - since that is a fact you do not even consider.

Why am I so annoyed?  Because I'm one of those who was bothered by it all.

Do us all a favour - if you want to do your "social studies" then fine, but keep it to yourself.  You are never going to get the sort of information needed to come to any clear conclusions - you'll just have ongoing supposition and guesses which isn't helping anyone ... except, perhaps, yourself.

[EEVblog]

Would a different set of moderators for that one thread be workable (or possible/worth trying)?

Possibly a superset, with the new "front line" moderators being responsible for the day to day janitorial cleanup of the most egregious/mod-time-wasting content?

Personally I like this idea, but ultimately it is up to Dave (@EEVBlog)

I'm not against that, and that is possible I think, at least on a board level (like the entire Test Equipment section). I don't think it's possible a single thread level, I'd have to check.

I've looked at the other TEA forum, and honestly I don't know WTF people want. That forum seems to be made up of people who left the TEA thread here?, although I know some post in both.
And I assume that these people left because of the over-moderation? Yet this other TEA forum has the same very strict rules:

TEA does not permit discussions of contentious topics which include, but are not limited to, politics, religion, race, sensitive current events, etc. In other words, we're all here to enjoy camaraderie based on test equipment and electronics, not to start conflicts.

Honestly I have no frigg'n idea what people actually want?
Some people bitch about too much moderation on the thread, and others not enough? 
We try and keep TEA on-topic and some people (even long standing ones) are going ballistic and want to leave? Why?

What would another new TEA moderator actually handle this any better? 

It reminds me of the Australian canyoning forum. It started out as a completely unmoderated Yahoo group then a Facebook group started up and got more popular, and then people were complaining it was overmoderated so they set up another "less-moderated" group, and then that group started banning people, and another forum started up. It's a mess.

I just deleted a post in TEA that had nothing by two unrelated Youtube music video. Why post this crap? Surely eveone can agree that shouldn't be there? Or am I wrong and the majority think that's just fine?

Seriously I have no idea how to handle this, I'm getting so many mixed messages it's impossible to make heads of tails of it.
IMO the obvious least impact thing is to encourage people to stay on topic, is that too much to ask?

[EEVblog]

If the moderatorial power trip continues I'm out of here, and by here I mean the whole forum. I've noted of late that the rest of the forum is actually pretty moribund, with little real electronics discussion of interest going on anywhere, mostly just the usual suspects grinding through their own personal hobby horses again and again.

Ok Cerebus, I consider you one of the most senior and respected members on the forum, so I'll ask:
1) What is your actual complaint? To me it appears to be over-moderation of some sort. But please, tell me exactly what you see the problem being.
2) How would you moderate the TEA threrad if you moderator? Or would you not bother to moderate it at all and allow absolutely anything?

Thanks.

FYI, I have only read a couple of pages of this thread. And I don't actively hang out on the TEA thread, only very occasionally popping in, and when I have done in the past all I ever see is some seriously addicted people talking about test equipment. So based on my (very) limited experience in the thead, it seems to be natually mostly on-topic. Am I completely wrong and it's actually been invested with gun and covid talk and music videos for years?

[Brumby]

IMHO, the best control is had when members know when to step back - either by realising they've rabbitted on too much or when others gently nudge - displaying a sensible, adult response and considering the greater good.

The TEA thread was a stellar example of how things could actually find its way back on track without heavyhanded intervention.  The only reason this failed is because there were some who felt they were entitled to stand their ground and selfishly did so.

Personally, I would suggest no changes to the way things are currently set up - just a call to people to be considerate to everyone.

[EEVblog]

One thing I would like to point out for one particular person that keeps stating that the "new moderation is purely a management decision intended to whitewash the forum to improve YT/Google metrics".

I have not received ANY direction from Dave to try to do such at thing. The only thing that I am aware of with regards to how we were operating as moderators changed was starting to make better use of SMF and to be careful not to step on each others toes when an issue was already being handled. Simply better coordination between us as moderators.

As for improving metrics... I really don't get how anyone could think this, and I am not even sure how whitewashing the forums could lead to this. I mean, we'd have to literally start fresh and wipe the forums clean if we were doing such a thing. Those claiming we were doing this are just showing their own paranoia and ignorance.

LOL, yep, that's rubbish.
We were simply getting more and more reports of off-topic stuff on the TEA thread, and every time I looked at a report (the other mods are usually way quicker than me so it's already gone), I've thought yeah why post that crap. Often it's some big embedded youtube video that takes up a ton of visual space for absolutely no reason. Surely everyone can agree (except the poster I guess) this stuff doesn't belong there? 
Given the huge number of people that use the one thread, it only takes one or two people to dominate the thread with off-topic posts and ruin the whole thing. I don't undersatnd what's wrong with trying to clamp down on that?

[capt bullshot]

I'm the author of that "unrelated two videos" post and was just notified of it's deletion.
I'm kind of annoyed, because such posts (in small doses, as my usual Signal to noise ratio is) make up the "Fun" part of this thread.
Otherwise, "I don't mind at all" (as my posted video "Great song of indifference"  by Bod Geldof says). It was my reaction expressing my opinion to some other offensive posts by others before. I can easily ignore such posts, and try to show my opinion in a ironic way. At least a few apparently understood the message, that's what makes me post such stuff occasionally.
Now I'm annoyed because this post got deleted, but not the others causing my reaction - the moderator should have read a bit more and thought about what to do for fairness' sake. Either delete all of the related posts or none.

This (moderators) behaviour might be an example (that surely isn't applicable for all inhabitants of the TEA thread) what causes people to leave this thread. Otherwise, I'm not here to analyze people or force everyone to obey the rules by the word, I just want to have some fun. So one rule should exist "Never offend another person directly and in public". One should extend this to ban politics discussions, as these have quite a potential to create endless discussions or personal offense. Anything else (as long as it isn't illegal content that could cause issues to the forum owner) doesn't harm - at least as long it's not too excessive. One off-topic post in relation to some previous post(s) - I don't consider this excessive.

[Brumby]

So based on my (very) limited experience in the thead, it seems to be natually mostly on-topic. Am I completely wrong and it's actually been invested with gun and covid talk and music videos for years?

As someone who has been following the TEA thread for quite some time - no, you are not wrong.  Music videos do show up but are not usually pervasive, Covid talk is not much more than "I've got it" with a couple of well wishing responses and gun talk does not last long at all - whether by Moderator or member response.  Sometimes there is a bit of a reaction, but it usually settles down fairly quickly.

The problem is when the stretching goes from 3 or 4 posts to 3 or 4 pages with recalcitrant participants - which is what I (and many others) saw happening.

Now, because this "stretching of the boundaries" has been around for so long, getting militant in the moderation is not going to work.  We have already seen the response to that idea.


I would hope we could get back to that place where members were more considerate than selfish.

[EEVblog]

I'm the author of that "unrelated two videos" post and was just notified of it's deletion.
I'm kind of annoyed, because such posts (in small doses, as my usual Signal to noise ratio is) make up the "Fun" part of this thread.
Otherwise, "I don't mind at all" (as my posted video "Great song of indifference"  by Bod Geldof says). It was my reaction expressing my opinion to some other offensive posts by others before. I can easily ignore such posts, and try to show my opinion in a ironic way. At least a few apparently understood the message, that's what makes me post such stuff occasionally.
Now I'm annoyed because this post got deleted, but not the others causing my reaction - the moderator should have read a bit more and thought about what to do for fairness' sake. Either delete all of the related posts or none.

The problem with videos is that they take up huge amounts of visual space on the forum.
What if everyone started posting videos in response to a post just to "show my opinion in a ironic way"? The thread would be disaster. Is that want you want? Really?
We are not going to delete every single off-topic post that is insanity and would literally be a full time job for someone.
Why post the videos instead of simply using the emojies?
Or better yet, why respond at all to as you say "offensive posts by others". Why not just ignore and lead by example by postign on-topic stuff.

One off-topic post in relation to some previous post(s) - I don't consider this excessive.

Neither do we, this literally happens dozens or even a hundred times a day on the forum. But come on, posting music videos to show your emotional reaction to an "offensive" post? Seriosuly? I can only see this as being part of the problem.
Does anyone here agree this is good for the foum?  (serious question, I'd put a poll if I could)

[PA0PBZ]

The problem with videos is that they take up huge amounts of visual space on the forum.

Maybe off topic but now you mention it: what really takes up a huge amount of space is quoting a meter long post just to add one sentence! IMO that's much worse than posting a video, and a video is much easier to skip than a totally unnecessary multi-screen long quote. Yeah, as you can see it's been annoying me for a long time. I'll  now.

Edit to clarify, this is not directed at you but at stuff happening often in the TEA thread.

[Brumby]

Or better yet, why respond at all to as you say "offensive posts by others". Why not just ignore and lead by example by postign on-topic stuff.

That is what does work - and it works well ... when people have the self discipline.

[EEVblog]

Poll:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/tea-moderation-poll/

[xrunner]

I didn't want to post about this (because I'm realize my opinion about these types of things mean little to nothing to anyone, and I'm glad I understand that).

But I'm comparing the TEA to the cat pic thread now. The cat pic thread is a legacy thread that has been allowed to go on (thankfully). It has even less to do with this forum than the TEA thread off-topic zig-zags. But the cat thread doesn't seem to get (or require) any moderation. It also never seems to get posts about guns or politics or other things that piss off people reading it. It just seems to stay on-topic somehow.

I really don't know why this is so, but it's just interesting to me that the one gathers all sorts of off-topic posts and the other doesn't. Maybe thinking of cats is so soothing it doesn't garner off-topic posts? I really don't know.

[EEVblog]

Or better yet, why respond at all to as you say "offensive posts by others". Why not just ignore and lead by example by postign on-topic stuff.

That is what does work - and it works well ... when people have the self discipline.

And this is defacto rule and "operating system" so to speak of this forum, has been since the start.
Occasionally some people just don't get it though and continue to push and push we have to untilmately ban them. Or occasioanlly delete off-topic posts to clean up a thread to get things back on tract.
Most often it's just "hey, settle down please" reminder post.

[Brumby]

Maybe off topic but now you mention it: what really takes up a huge amount of space is quoting a meter long post just to add one sentence! IMO that's much worse than posting a video, and a video is much easier to skip than a totally unnecessary multi-screen long quote. Yeah, as you can see it's been annoying me for a long time.

That's an annoyance to me as well - which is why I will only quote what is essential to my point.  Other members have done likewise, including changing the size of images to reduce the impact - a practice I have also adopted.

It's not a universal practice yet ... let's call it a work in progress.

[EEVblog]

Maybe off topic but now you mention it: what really takes up a huge amount of space is quoting a meter long post just to add one sentence! IMO that's much worse than posting a video, and a video is much easier to skip than a totally unnecessary multi-screen long quote. Yeah, as you can see it's been annoying me for a long time.

That's an annoyance to me as well - which is why I will only quote what is essential to my point.  Other members have done likewise, including changing the size of images to reduce the impact - a practice I have also adopted.
It's not a universal practice yet ... let's call it a work in progress.

A gentle reminder to a full-quoter is sometimes good. They may have never thought about it before. And as always, leding by example is the best way on the forum.