Discussing the usage of the TEA thread

[PA0PBZ]

I'm still puzzled by the fact that if you don't like what's going on in a thread you feel the need to report it  Just move on, don't read it, there is enough on the www to enjoy.

[tautech]

Not having the energy to go back and look through a metric ton of posts, I think gnif said that there were 15 complaints.  What is unknown is if they are newbies, old mustache petes or SJWs.  The mere fact that 15 people could completely derail a thread the size of TEA, seems a bit disturbing.  Gnif, if I am wrong on the counts, please correct me.

This should be of great concern however the larger worry is how to properly manage/protect the forum from the possibility of newbie attacks ?
As it's a darn long time since I was a newbie do we have any reporting constraints on anyone newly signed up ?
We're a newbie until 5 posts are reached but at 5 can we judge a newbie to have sufficient experience here to report those with say 10k posts under their belt ?
That don't seem right to me !

Admin needs to take a good hard look at this IMO.

[GreyWoolfe]

I'm still puzzled by the fact that if you don't like what's going on in a thread you feel the need to report it  Just move on, don't read it, there is enough on the www to enjoy.

I can't agree more with that statement.  We say the same thing in ham radio.  Don't like what you hear on the frequency, spin the big knob.

[GreyWoolfe]

Not having the energy to go back and look through a metric ton of posts, I think gnif said that there were 15 complaints.  What is unknown is if they are newbies, old mustache petes or SJWs.  The mere fact that 15 people could completely derail a thread the size of TEA, seems a bit disturbing.  Gnif, if I am wrong on the counts, please correct me.

This should be of great concern however the larger worry is how to properly manage/protect the forum from the possibility of newbie attacks ?
As it's a darn long time since I was a newbie do we have any reporting constraints on anyone newly signed up ?
We're a newbie until 5 posts are reached but at 5 can we judge a newbie to have sufficient experience here to report those with say 10k posts under their belt ?
That don't seem right to me !

Admin needs to take a good hard look at this IMO.

It does seem that there are too many people in the world that just look for something to be offended at.  I am too old to give a darnn what people think about what I say, think, do, the clothes I wear or the hobbies I have.  What I hear is what Charlie Brown hears from his teachers.  Wah, wah, wah, wah.  T, it has always been the squeaky wheel gets the grease.  These people believe if they can shout you down, then they are right.

[tautech]

Not having the energy to go back and look through a metric ton of posts, I think gnif said that there were 15 complaints.  What is unknown is if they are newbies, old mustache petes or SJWs.  The mere fact that 15 people could completely derail a thread the size of TEA, seems a bit disturbing.  Gnif, if I am wrong on the counts, please correct me.

This should be of great concern however the larger worry is how to properly manage/protect the forum from the possibility of newbie attacks ?
As it's a darn long time since I was a newbie do we have any reporting constraints on anyone newly signed up ?
We're a newbie until 5 posts are reached but at 5 can we judge a newbie to have sufficient experience here to report those with say 10k posts under their belt ?
That don't seem right to me !

Admin needs to take a good hard look at this IMO.

It does seem that there are too many people in the world that just look for something to be offended at.  I am too old to give a darnn what people think about what I say, think, do, the clothes I wear or the hobbies I have.  What I hear is what Charlie Brown hears from his teachers.  Wah, wah, wah, wah.  T, it has always been the squeaky wheel gets the grease.  These people believe if they can shout you down, then they are right.

100% and there is a chance Solomon was sucked in.
Those that had seen this BS before claimed the woke had won which caused some offense to mods however they need properly analyze where the complaints originated from and if those that made them were sufficiently preengaged with the forum to have any right to do so.

gnif seems to have logged out now and he should as the sun is now up in Oz and he needs sleep on recent comments and present them to other admin for consideration.

[factory]

Since all this went down I have been informed that there is a TEA domain that was registered when we had the outage from the fire at the datacenter, and that there is one, perhaps two "backup" copies of atleast the TEA thread someone has been keeping a copy of for this. That incident was 8 Apr 2021, more than a year ago! Well before I felt the need to step in here and try to bring things back on track. I also have seen talk in your own new TEA community forum of trailing out other platforms/software in order to move.

Also note, with Dave's approval I would have been more then happy to provide a database export and image archive of that thread to assist your community to migrate if you had just asked. While I will still do it if Dave requests it of me, I have zero motivation to do so unless instructed to (I am also not sure about the legal ramifications of this as there may be privacy issues with posts made by now inactive members that don't wish to see their content on another forum/site).

These backups were discussed in the thread, by those making them, I believe the datacentre fire and problems with an update (something to do with the long standing inline picture posting problem) are the main reasons.

David

Yup, which I fully understand. However the domain registration, the fact that the groups.io tea forum was created two days prior to things blowing up, and mentions in the new forums that they had already been exploring options to me do not add up. While I don't think the OP of the TEA thread (bitseeker) was doing anything wrong/odd, it does feel like those that knew of these things were manipulating things/pouring fuel on the fire, to force/justify a move so they could create their own club. Again though, this is just my 2c and I could be completely wrong here...

My understanding is that the original denizens, who created and made the therapy group what it was, were becoming unhappy with attempts to change the flavour of the group. I believe bitseeker was surprised to have had to start using the groups.io group so abruptly and so soon. Hence it looks like setting up the groups.io group was classic "disaster planning", with the "disaster" happening unexpectedly.

There is certainly feeling that some people remaining on this forum "gamed" the reporting and moderation mechanism to change the thread away from therapy. I'm agnostic, but it can't be dismissed out of hand.

Personally I have a dislike for situations in which newcomers waltz into a situation and decide they don't like the situation and will therefore agitate to change it to suit themselves. Doubly so if it isn't done in public but is done by behind the scenes complaints to mummy/daddy/deity/HumanResources/whatever. I've seen that kind of thing happen in many spheres, including religious/cultural organisations, workplaces, political organisations, and social clubs. The resulting schisms are always unpleasant and have unpleasant consequences.

However, nothing is black and white. Before jumping in with kneejerk responses, please read my earlier posts which outline more of the nuances in my position, e.g.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/discussing-the-usage-of-the-tea-thread/msg4377424/#msg4377424
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/discussing-the-usage-of-the-tea-thread/msg4378024/#msg4378024
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/discussing-the-usage-of-the-tea-thread/msg4379395/#msg4379395

Not having the energy to go back and look through a metric ton of posts, I think gnif said that there were 15 complaints.  What is unknown is if they are newbies, old mustache petes or SJWs.  The mere fact that 15 people could completely derail a thread the size of TEA, seems a bit disturbing.  Gnif, if I am wrong on the counts, please correct me.  Watching the thread the past couple of days, after being around for years with all that went on in the thread, it suddenly seems a bit sterile.  I still plan to be around lurking as I have been and commenting where I was able but it still is sad to see the change.  gnif, sorry you found yourself in such an untenable situation, you felt obliged to step down as moderator.  I have seen through the years how mods are generally treated in threads when they are forced to step in and I don't envy the position.  Keep fighting the good fight, sir.

Really I'm not surprized, those that spent a lot of time posting, also seem to be those that have left. Guess it might be quiet soon, I won't be able to contribute much once I return to work next week, I suffer from fatigue and find it difficult to get much done in the evenings after work, TE, forums, etc, some days are worse than others. This is another reason why I don't want to join another forum, there just isn't enough time to look them all. let alone contribute as well.

David

[tggzzz]

I'm still puzzled by the fact that if you don't like what's going on in a thread you feel the need to report it  Just move on, don't read it, there is enough on the www to enjoy.

Knowing what to skip is an essential modern skill.

Non contributors trying to change a thread by the backdoors is reprehensible. I have zero respect for people that wail to mummy/deity/HR/etc that little Bobby is being mean/rude/etc.

Is that a serious problem? It is getting that way in society in general; I hope not here.

Having said that, in this case the situation is not black and white, but shades of grey. There was a little behaviour that needed correcting, and perhaps the TEA thread and its denizens had outgrown this forum and a schism was inevitable and necessary.

[tggzzz]

These people believe if they can shout you down, then they are right.

Worse: that if you are down then they are up.

Variant: getting egoboos from causing changes for changes' sake. We have all seen that in workplace/politics/religion and elsewhwre. That's no better than a dog pissing to mark its territory.

Variant: youngsters thinking that newer => better, and that they know everybody else will be improved by changing to their newest geegaw.

[tggzzz]

Really I'm not surprized, those that spent a lot of time posting, also seem to be those that have left. Guess it might be quiet soon, I won't be able to contribute much once I return to work next week, I suffer from fatigue and find it difficult to get much done in the evenings after work, TE, forums, etc, some days are worse than others. This is another reason why I don't want to join another forum, there just isn't enough time to look them all. let alone contribute as well.

David

Time will tell whether one/both/neither place will flourish.

There's a lot of hyperventilating at the moment, as is to be expected.

[nctnico]

Not having the energy to go back and look through a metric ton of posts, I think gnif said that there were 15 complaints.  What is unknown is if they are newbies, old mustache petes or SJWs.  The mere fact that 15 people could completely derail a thread the size of TEA, seems a bit disturbing.  Gnif, if I am wrong on the counts, please correct me.

This should be of great concern however the larger worry is how to properly manage/protect the forum from the possibility of newbie attacks ?
As it's a darn long time since I was a newbie do we have any reporting constraints on anyone newly signed up ?
We're a newbie until 5 posts are reached but at 5 can we judge a newbie to have sufficient experience here to report those with say 10k posts under their belt ?
That don't seem right to me !

Makes perfect sense to me. Whether you have 1 post or a million posts, misbehaviour is misbehaviour so it should be dealt with equally regardless of the number of posts. This still is Dave's forum, his rules go and we should respect that. There is a lot of leniency in how this forum is moderated but enough is enough at some point.

Overall I'm surprised with all the drama that has developed appearantly... maybe some are watching too many rerurns of BH 90210... Geez 

[Specmaster]

When someone has so notoriously treated TEA to the kind of OT stuff that really upsets the moderators, from explosives and firearms (cited literally by gnif among his reasons for intervening) to the most bizarre political statements, and this person then has the gall to publicly complain about purported 'PC' and 'wokeness', one should be allowed to give them a piece of one's mind.

You are absolutely right about that you are allowed to express your feelings, but there are ways to do it without being offensive.

Simply stating that the whole ordeal had nothing to do with woke or political correctness, would have sufficed.

The same applies to what Saskia and others wrote. One of the reasons why I like this forum is the lack of "mud slinging" like these examples.

And yes gnif pointed out that it where explosives that tipped the situation into what happened, but to me it seems that you still don't get that it did not upset the moderators. It upset the general public. It was them who poked the moderators to take action.

Hmm, and gnif also cited bomb making, something which I have never seen in the thread, explosives has come from old caps being destroyed by the application of excessive voltage or the application of AC volts, which is I hear is pretty common and boys do love their bangers, but always in the right safe location and gun talk, was again largely in the context of target shooting as a sport because there was a member who  is an active sports shooter, and correct me if I'm wrong, but shooting is actually an Olympic sport?  All work and no play makes Jack a very dull boy indeed.

[Specmaster]

Since all this went down I have been informed that there is a TEA domain that was registered when we had the outage from the fire at the datacenter, and that there is one, perhaps two "backup" copies of atleast the TEA thread someone has been keeping a copy of for this. That incident was 8 Apr 2021, more than a year ago! Well before I felt the need to step in here and try to bring things back on track. I also have seen talk in your own new TEA community forum of trailing out other platforms/software in order to move.

Also note, with Dave's approval I would have been more then happy to provide a database export and image archive of that thread to assist your community to migrate if you had just asked. While I will still do it if Dave requests it of me, I have zero motivation to do so unless instructed to (I am also not sure about the legal ramifications of this as there may be privacy issues with posts made by now inactive members that don't wish to see their content on another forum/site).

These backups were discussed in the thread, by those making them, I believe the datacentre fire and problems with an update (something to do with the long standing inline picture posting problem) are the main reasons.

David

Yup, which I fully understand. However the domain registration, the fact that the groups.io tea forum was created two days prior to things blowing up, and mentions in the new forums that they had already been exploring options to me do not add up. While I don't think the OP of the TEA thread (bitseeker) was doing anything wrong/odd, it does feel like those that knew of these things were manipulating things/pouring fuel on the fire, to force/justify a move so they could create their own club. Again though, this is just my 2c and I could be completely wrong here...

That was just pure coincidence. It was I think an idea that sprung out of that large outage from the fire a couple of years ago and also from that fact that it was becoming clear that there was a misconception about the nature of the thread and that has got steadily worse with the increased exposure it received following the decision to make it a sticky and Dave referring to it a few times in his video blog. I also don't think that the previous moderating attempt had a positive effect other than to help resolve the situation to take the OT chatter away from the thread to a new home.

[PlainName]

The mere fact that 15 people could completely derail a thread the size of TEA, seems a bit disturbing.

Perhaps it's surprising that there were (apparently) 15 people complaining to the mods. Typically, one tends to just wade into arguments and have one's say (because it's easy), so escalating to a mod would be unusual. In real media, 15 complaints from an audience of a million or two would be a Big Deal, and that's when complaining to a regulator is the only way to have your opinion heard.

We're a newbie until 5 posts are reached but at 5 can we judge a newbie to have sufficient experience here to report those with say 10k posts under their belt ?

Does quantity trump quality, then? Is it impossible for someone to ever have a good opinion if it's different to someone with, say, 10 posts more?

Just how many posts does it take to be accepted as an equal here?

[beanflying]

Before peoples selective recollections and outright miss telling of facts gets any worse try going back to when and WHY Dave initially stepped in after a particularly Off Topic mess that generated the reports to start with. It was not reports of someone posting AFTER THAT about a broken Washing machine or a Cool XYZ they saw on line at all this is a complete FICTION.

What developed was increased scrutiny to see IF the thread had got back toward more balanced content AS DAVE asked for (it never was 4 or 5 years ago just Test Gear but it was more like 25% OT) instead of majority OT. This is not made up or exaggerated this is just simple fact.

This request was openly ignored either wilfully or deliberately by a minority because there sandpit actually did have rules to follow like the entire forum and was not immune. A vocal minority then went after that moderation publically in a series of escaliations getting us to where it is now.

To be VERY CLEAR it was the Off Topic posts by a select segment of TEA contributors that caused, fed and then ultimately went up in flames it was certainly not aggressive or heavy handed Moderation or Mods raising the Temperature as we have seen here in the past of a 'very few occasions'.

Anytime member(s) goes into open and wilful defiance or is continually belligerent the owner/mods of a Forum and it's rules in a Dick swinging contest it is never going to end well.

[bitseeker]

Seeing various questions come up, hopefully this is helpful. Thanks to those who also helped with answers in prior posts.

TEA Q & A

Q: Were recent events intended or accelerated to justify moving?
A: No. If that was "the plan," I wasn't ready for it. Choosing and setting up the right forum for a community is a non-trivial, time-consuming endeavor.

Q: Why did you make a backup of the TEA thread?
A: This began after the data center fire. It scared us a lot. So, after everything was back to normal, I started making periodic, incremental backups of our content in the thread. Timestamps were tracked to avoid fetching the same thing multiple times. It was a slow crawl with a 2-second delay between GET requests. Given the number of requests a single page requires for all its elements, it moves along at a snail's pace, but the goal is not to negatively impact the forum. Now that TEA has moved, there's no need to back it up anymore.

Q: Are you going to duplicate the thread elsewhere?
A: Not as long as it exists here. It's bad for SEO to publish duplicate content. We built the thread here, so there's no need to have it elsewhere. We can always link to posts within it.

Q: I heard some people want to delete their content. Is that true?
A: No. During a time of high stress, some people blow off a lot of steam. Take what you hear with a grain of salt. We invested an inordinate amount of time and energy to build the thread. We're not going to destroy our own creation. As others have attested, there's a lot of good stuff in there.

Q: Why do you have domains for TEA?
A: This was also related to the fire. By having the domains, if something catastrophic happened, it'd be easy to point to a new location so folks wouldn't be left hanging. The domains originally pointed to the TEA thread here. Now they point to the TEA forum.

Q: Why did you choose groups.io?
A: It wasn't a vetted choice, unfortunately. Since there are already test equipment forums on groups.io, I figured I'd check it out in case the growing friction continued to be a problem. Then things went south in a hurry and a half-baked home was all I had to work with. Its UX has a lot to be desired, as we all found out afterward, but it's operational and has some useful bits.

Q: Why not just do A, B or C with the thread rather than move?
A: Because a single thread isn't the right solution. If you want to post about test equipment, it should go into the Test Equipment forum. If you want to post about a repair of test equipment, it should go into the Repair forum. If you want to chat about something else technical, it should go into the General Technical Chat forum. That's how EEVblog works. Putting your on-topic content at the bottom of a 130000-post thread is not beneficial to the poster nor the various forums here.

[gnif]

Thanks mate for that.

One thing I would like to point out for one particular person that keeps stating that the "new moderation is purely a management decision intended to whitewash the forum to improve YT/Google metrics".

I have not received ANY direction from Dave to try to do such at thing. The only thing that I am aware of with regards to how we were operating as moderators changed was starting to make better use of SMF and to be careful not to step on each others toes when an issue was already being handled. Simply better coordination between us as moderators.

As for improving metrics... I really don't get how anyone could think this, and I am not even sure how whitewashing the forums could lead to this. I mean, we'd have to literally start fresh and wipe the forums clean if we were doing such a thing. Those claiming we were doing this are just showing their own paranoia and ignorance.

The mere fact that 15 people could completely derail a thread the size of TEA, seems a bit disturbing.

Where does this number come from? I don't recall ever publishing the count. I do recall publishing a rough number of reports we were getting. The fact that my mail box was continually filling with more and more TEA reports for off-topic content. Do note we have been having such reports for years, and for the most part they were ignored due to the nature of that thread. Once we started seeing a large uptick in the number of reports and who was reporting it was clear that something needed to be done. Stop making false claims that it was some small group trying to cause issues, or lurkers... quite a few of the reports were from your own members against each other who are now calling foul on acting on said reports.

Move on people! It's done, finished, stop trying to play the blame game.

[Per Hansson]

The mere fact that 15 people could completely derail a thread the size of TEA, seems a bit disturbing.

Where does this number come from? I don't recall ever publishing the count. I do recall publishing a rough number of reports we were getting.

I guess it is from here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/discussing-the-usage-of-the-tea-thread/msg4376107/#msg4376107

Can you quantify a "lot"? Complainers as well as thankers?

No complainers, many frequent (15+ so far) users with 1000+ posts explaining their desire to see this resolved.

[tggzzz]

Thanks mate for that.
...

The mere fact that 15 people could completely derail a thread the size of TEA, seems a bit disturbing.

Where does this number come from? I don't recall ever publishing the count.
...
Move on people! It's done, finished, stop trying to play the blame game.

Just so.

Schisms happen in all walks of life. There is too much hyperventilating all round, but that is to be expected and will fade.

As for the number of 15, it is a case of "send reinforcements we're going to advance" being transmitted over several noise phone lines and emerging as "send three and fourpence, we're going to a dance". (Note to youngsters and foreigners, "three and fourpence" is the pre-decimal UK currency derived from the Carolingian monetary system, written as 3/4 or 3s 4d.)

I'll note that several people have written that, in their opinion, you came out of this relatively well.

[Brumby]

Move on people! It's done, finished, stop trying to play the blame game.

Just so.

Schisms happen in all walks of life. There is too much hyperventilating all round, but that is to be expected and will fade.

I will go a step further and say there is little (if anything) to gain by attempting to do an autopsy on details that are not (and should not) be publicly available, especially when speculation, fabrication and possible deliberate misinformation starts getting into mainstream discussion.  Having a deliberate falsehood initiate a narrative which generates discussion is a waste of time.  People spending their time addressing it only lends credibility to it.  That stuff needs to left in the sun to die.

At this point, the TEA thread is a space that is still recovering from shock - and it is my firm belief that people be allowed to approach it once again when they feel comfortable.  Currently, I get the feeling that there is a sense of taboo.  There is nothing sinister to be found there - except for the possibility of SJW's hovering over the report button.  However, on that score, we still have moderators who assess those reports, so it isn't a turkey shoot.

A lot of the discussion I've seen here has had more awkwardness because of imperfect communication than any conflict of opinion.  This is something we have all had some degree of experience, since the "off the cuff" written word isn't always 100% precise - especially with a truly international assembly such as the EEVblog.


IMO, the sooner we put this event into the History books and move on, the better.  Forget it? Absolutely not - but we shouldn't dwell on it too much.

[tautech]

We're a newbie until 5 posts are reached but at 5 can we judge a newbie to have sufficient experience here to report those with say 10k posts under their belt ?

Does quantity trump quality, then?

Of course, everyone need learn their way just like displaying an L in a car window.

Is it impossible for someone to ever have a good opinion if it's different to someone with, say, 10 posts more?

Not impossible however with considerably less credibility than a member with 100+.

Just how many posts does it take to be accepted as an equal here?

Each are judged or fucking should be on their content and capability as a member here, that is those that show they obviously can distinguish the wood from the Treez.

[pcprogrammer]

Is it impossible for someone to ever have a good opinion if it's different to someone with, say, 10 posts more?

Not impossible however with considerably less credibility than a member with 100+.

I disagree here. The number of postings says nothing about the quality of the content. Nor does the length of a post.

One has to evaluate each member on the content of posts made, and sure it will become more clear after a number of posts if someone is capable of providing valuable content. Still no guarantee for good quality posts all the time.

[GreyWoolfe]

Thanks mate for that.

One thing I would like to point out for one particular person that keeps stating that the "new moderation is purely a management decision intended to whitewash the forum to improve YT/Google metrics".

I have not received ANY direction from Dave to try to do such at thing. The only thing that I am aware of with regards to how we were operating as moderators changed was starting to make better use of SMF and to be careful not to step on each others toes when an issue was already being handled. Simply better coordination between us as moderators.

As for improving metrics... I really don't get how anyone could think this, and I am not even sure how whitewashing the forums could lead to this. I mean, we'd have to literally start fresh and wipe the forums clean if we were doing such a thing. Those claiming we were doing this are just showing their own paranoia and ignorance.

The mere fact that 15 people could completely derail a thread the size of TEA, seems a bit disturbing.

Where does this number come from? I don't recall ever publishing the count. I do recall publishing a rough number of reports we were getting. The fact that my mail box was continually filling with more and more TEA reports for off-topic content. Do note we have been having such reports for years, and for the most part they were ignored due to the nature of that thread. Once we started seeing a large uptick in the number of reports and who was reporting it was clear that something needed to be done. Stop making false claims that it was some small group trying to cause issues, or lurkers... quite a few of the reports were from your own members against each other who are now calling foul on acting on said reports.

Move on people! It's done, finished, stop trying to play the blame game.

gnif, that's why i asked for clarification.  i have a lot going on right now with dealing with a leg broken in 2 places and other injuries falling down some stairs.  not sure where the number 15 got stuck in my head.  Maybe it was just my wrong impression was a quite small of complaints compared to the number of posters to the thread.  at any rate, sorry if I accidentally put words in your mouth.  I hope at some point you decide to be a mod again.  There are too few of you doing a thankless job and you all should be lifted up and encouraged instead of being denigrated.

[pcprogrammer]

As someone else pointed out the number 15+ was in a post of gnif. And just to kill some time (too tired to work on my project) I tracked back in the thread to page 5223 and looked at who posted in the time up to and little beyond the moderator step in.

Code: [Select]

bd139
wolfgang
tggzzz
med6753
bu508a
cerebus
mnementh
robert763
specmaster
factory
soundtech-lg
capt bullshot
mansaxel
cubdriver
vince
zenith
25 cps
vk6zgo
zoli
bitseeker
saskia
brumby
tautech
dl6lr

24 members and from these only a few who have high activity rates. Compared to 15+ complainers the numbers start to look a bit more grim I would say.

@GreyWoolfe, ouch. Hope your leg and other injuries heal well.

[GreyWoolfe]

thank you for the kind words.

[Black Phoenix]

thank you for the kind words.

Yeah mate, the best wishes for the recovery.