Discussing the usage of the TEA thread

[Ed.Kloonk]

What I can say is, a awful as it seems, it is good that there is at least a few different passionate viewpoints, none of those printed above being surprising to me BTW.

That doesn't sound awful at all ... at least to me.

** I have always held that everyone's opinion is worth listening to - including those who come from an ideologically foreign perspective to one's own.  They may still have a point or two that are worth considering.  Even if they don't, having differing - or even extreme - viewpoints helps define reference points to allow us to see how our opinions fit into the bigger picture. 

(** I expressed this in an article which was published in EA some time last millennium.)

Sorry. I didn't express myself sufficiently. It's when the conversion stops that's the worry.

[tggzzz]

I would also like to add that the whole band of discussion that is currently flying around citing chapter and verse on various interpretations is not very well grounded in the relevant facts - again, IMHO.  The TEA thread developed a unique culture through common interests, time, interaction and finding its own way.  Looking back at it all and trying to apply legislative thinking to something that grew organically will generate futile discussions and is just a waste of time.  Fine for people who want to say something - but the fundamental problem there is trying to box up something that is, essentially, nebulous.

Just so.

The Mods had nothing to do with the root cause.  They were presented with a situation which they were obligated to deal with.  It's that simple.

We do not know the pressures brought upon them in the beginning - how many reports or other communications were made nor the content of such.  I imagine there may have been everything from quiet requests to angry demands and personal attacks.  But they then need to look past the emotion and work out how best to deal with the situation.

Some of you armchair warriors will have strong opinions on what should have been done - but you certainly will not have all the information and only a number of you will have the skills and, even less, the experience to act with any level of objectivity.  Could the Mods have done things differently?  Possibly.  Could you have done any better?  I doubt it ... and, yes, I know some will take offence at that - but they are the ones I wouldn't want anywhere near the moderator button.

Again, yes, particularly that last sentence.

[Specmaster]

In hindsight this thread should not be locked yet, discussion needs to be open for suggestions on how weto proceed with the TEA thread here.

Unlocked

Options which I see:
1. Held in place, try to keep on topic - it will lose a lot of the current spirit.
2. Move to general technical chat, and leave a link in the sticky place - this way I see a better chance to keep the original/current spirit.
3.-x...
Once the choices are clear, maybe put up to vote?

I personally like #2

The problem here is, that the same people who are currently dragging you into the fray, will still be there, where ever you put the thread as for some of those folk just seem to enjoy being killjoys, you come across them in every walk of life and their day is not complete until they have reported someone or something, they are the equivalent of a nosy parker neighbour, with not enough to occupy their minds, so they hide behind net curtains and become the neighbourhood whistleblower, the neighbour from hell, who is very often despised by the other neighbours. Those people need to remember that when they point a finger at someone, they have 3 of their own fingers pointing back at them.

I disagree Spec ! As I said earlier, once the thread is moved to wherever the OT stuff is allowed... then whoever complains about OT stuff can just go get lost ! 
They can report whatever OT stuff they like to the moderators, they won't have a "case"... rather the moderators would ban them in retaliation for spamming them with unfounded reports...

Have a bit of faith spec !   

If anything, it's well worth giving it a try ! Nothing to lose, and everything to win ! 

Sorry, but as one of the early members, this thread was intentionally OT as well discussing TE gear it was also a venting hole, where members could discuss things and get them off their chest, particularly those that are married and SWMBO does not understand our addiction to rescuing vintage test gear. Better to let off steam among others who share similar problems, far better than kicking the cat or worse.

The title of this thread and it's there for all to see under the Test Equipment general heading, "Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread", I would have thought that the word therapy would have explained it all, but it seems not to be the case because nobody seems to be able to read anything after the first 2 words "Test Equipment".

If people are looking for anything specific, say anything to do with a Tek 485 for instance, then there are other threads (488 of them also in the Test Equipment section) that might well contain the information that they seek, or there is the "Repair" section with 374 threads where can either share their repairs (and many TEA members have done just that so the information is there fore others benefit with all the posts in chronological order. Plus there is also another section called "Projects, Designs, and Technical Stuff" with a further 727 threads of information and requests for assistance. Those I mention above are where the full on technical information on dedicated subjects is to be found and Google really is your friend if looking for things.

This thread was set up to be and always has been the thread where the OT stuff was allowed and hence why there has been so much opposition to the recent moderators actions. If we all posting OT stuff in the middle of a dedicated thread like "The Siglent SDG2042X Thread" then fair enough, the moderators actions and also those of the people who reported the OT would have been 1000% justified and I suspect not a single negative comment would have been made, we would have taken the wrist slapping because we deserved it.

How many people in the TEA thread have actually taken the trouble to visit page 1 of the thread and seen all the information there about it, I know of no other thread that has such info about it.

[pcprogrammer]

The title of this thread and it's there for all to see under the Test Equipment general heading, "Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread", I would have thought that the word therapy would have explained it all, but it seems not to be the case because nobody seems to be able to read anything after the first 2 words "Test Equipment".

I think you have a good point there. Lots of people don't read that well it seems.

How many people in the TEA thread have actually taken the trouble to visit page 1 of the thread and seen all the information there about it, I know of no other thread that has such info about it.

That is most likely why what happened happened. People who just come by to watch only look at the last couple of pages and see loads of chatter that does not fit their perspective of Test Equipment, because that is probably why they frequent that section in the first place.

How many of them put in a complaint we don't know, nor how many of the frequent contributors did. Fact is that some of the frequent contributors did express here that it was sliding towards more and more of the "therapeutic" chatter then they like.

What I wonder about is why Dave has not expressed his feelings and point of view on it all here in this thread.

[PlainName]

why Dave has not expressed his feelings and point of view on it all here in this thread

Perhaps because it would be really bad management to undermine your mods. And by 'undermine' I mean 'say anything' since being pro or con would be seen as thinking your mod needs assistance.

[Specmaster]

The title of this thread and it's there for all to see under the Test Equipment general heading, "Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread", I would have thought that the word therapy would have explained it all, but it seems not to be the case because nobody seems to be able to read anything after the first 2 words "Test Equipment".

I think you have a good point there. Lots of people don't read that well it seems.

How many people in the TEA thread have actually taken the trouble to visit page 1 of the thread and seen all the information there about it, I know of no other thread that has such info about it.

That is most likely why what happened happened. People who just come by to watch only look at the last couple of pages and see loads of chatter that does not fit their perspective of Test Equipment, because that is probably why they frequent that section in the first place.

How many of them put in a complaint we don't know, nor how many of the frequent contributors did. Fact is that some of the frequent contributors did express here that it was sliding towards more and more of the "therapeutic" chatter then they like.

What I wonder about is why Dave has not expressed his feelings and point of view on it all here in this thread.

I expect you're right about some of the frequent contributors, but how many of those that did express negative opinions were not part of the thread of from the early days and so are not fully aware of the page contents or the of the thread's actual full title and what that says about the thread? I was actually invited to become part of this thread, before that I was to be seen lurking and taking part on some of the other threads here.

That being said, however, I still think it was a bad choice of moderation style, I have nothing negative to say about any of the moderators here, but I still think that it would have paid huge dividends had the moderator taken a bit of time to get to know just what the thread was about, looked at the contributor's length of membership, and their participation record etc before coming to a conclusion that the complaints were justified and not just a knee-jerk reaction.

[pcprogrammer]

why Dave has not expressed his feelings and point of view on it all here in this thread

Perhaps because it would be really bad management to undermine your mods. And by 'undermine' I mean 'say anything' since being pro or con would be seen as thinking your mod needs assistance.

I meant more an after the fact thought on how he feels about the thread going forward based on some of the suggestions made here.

Not to judge on what the moderators did in this case.

gnif gave his idea on what to possibly do with it.

[alm]

I expect you're right about some of the frequent contributors, but how many of those that did express negative opinions were not part of the thread of from the early days and so are not fully aware of the page contents or the of the thread's actual full title and what that says about the thread? I was actually invited to become part of this thread, before that I was to be seen lurking and taking part on some of the other threads here.

I did post in the thread fairly early on, but only posted in response to questions about test equipment. So in hindsight this was OT for that thread . Sorry about that.

I did read the first post back then, but my thought back then was "this can't possibly be serious, this is just a place to chat about buying and fixing test equipment". When long stretches of off-topic posts became more prevalent, I stopped participating. Particularly because Chrome on my phone hangs whenever I open the thread due to the number of pages.

The only time I run into the thread these days, is when I'm searching for information about a particular piece of test equipment and find a relevant post. Then I'm forced to read through the next couple of pages to see if anything else pops up about that piece of gear.

[AVGresponding]

I am so reminded of all this political correctness crap. ... Mission accompli, the wokes have it.

For the life of me I can't see what all the kerfuffle about TEA would have to do with woke or PC or whatever, other than you using every occasion to keep rubbing our noses in your dumb political agenda.

Ad hominem attacks are not helpful. I don't agree with their politics either, but I don't feel the need to insult them on a public forum.

[Zucca]

Just to say to the TEA gang I am going to be more active on Discord from now.
I will be always thankful to the EEVBlog to spark the initial ignition flame to the TEA movement.

For those who do not know what I am talking about, see below:
The Official TEA server on Discord

If I have time and the mood I will come back to the official TEA thread to post something of course on topic.

[Zucca]

Unfortunately the forum/thread notify function is indiscriminate and still will "spam" mailboxes with notifications for stuff people are not interested in.

When it works yes.

[Neper]

I am so reminded of all this political correctness crap. ... Mission accompli, the wokes have it.

For the life of me I can't see what all the kerfuffle about TEA would have to do with woke or PC or whatever, other than you using every occasion to keep rubbing our noses in your dumb political agenda.

Ad hominem attacks are not helpful. I don't agree with their politics either, but I don't feel the need to insult them on a public forum.

You have your view. I have mine.

When someone has so notoriously treated TEA to the kind of OT stuff that really upsets the moderators, from explosives and firearms (cited literally by gnif among his reasons for intervening) to the most bizarre political statements, and this person then has the gall to publicly complain about purported 'PC' and 'wokeness', one should be allowed to give them a piece of one's mind.

[pcprogrammer]

When someone has so notoriously treated TEA to the kind of OT stuff that really upsets the moderators, from explosives and firearms (cited literally by gnif among his reasons for intervening) to the most bizarre political statements, and this person then has the gall to publicly complain about purported 'PC' and 'wokeness', one should be allowed to give them a piece of one's mind.

You are absolutely right about that you are allowed to express your feelings, but there are ways to do it without being offensive.

Simply stating that the whole ordeal had nothing to do with woke or political correctness, would have sufficed.

The same applies to what Saskia and others wrote. One of the reasons why I like this forum is the lack of "mud slinging" like these examples.

And yes gnif pointed out that it where explosives that tipped the situation into what happened, but to me it seems that you still don't get that it did not upset the moderators. It upset the general public. It was them who poked the moderators to take action.

[tautech]

When someone has so notoriously treated TEA to the kind of OT stuff that really upsets the moderators, from explosives and firearms (cited literally by gnif among his reasons for intervening) to the most bizarre political statements, and this person then has the gall to publicly complain about purported 'PC' and 'wokeness', one should be allowed to give them a piece of one's mind.

You are absolutely right about that you are allowed to express your feelings, but there are ways to do it without being offensive.

Simply stating that the whole ordeal had nothing to do with woke or political correctness, would have sufficed.

The same applies to what Saskia and others wrote. One of the reasons why I like this forum is the lack of "mud slinging" like these examples.

And yes gnif pointed out that it where explosives that tipped the situation into what happened, but to me it seems that you still don't get that it did not upset the moderators. It upset the general public. It was them who poked the moderators to take action.

Which instead if they or anyone else had engaged with the gal you would find she’s a very capable rocketeer and using explosive propellents is everyday hohum for skilled people such as her.
Again people go off half cocked instead or engaging with someone to learn what they might otherwise know jack shit about.

What are explosives anyway, come on define it !
Everything in another context can mean something entirely different.

[Ed.Kloonk]

 

[gnif]

Combinations of both explosives and also the discussion turning to the political side with gun safety/regulation and a rather lengthy post about how they were used (and misused) in Australia where opinions were flying about what they feel should/shouldn't be allowed and why.... You are saying I removed these because I didn't know the person, but in reality I don't need to, these are topics that are clear cut banned on this forum (politics, guns, explosives). If you want to discuss the chemical reactions of explosives, there are other communities available for that, why bring it here where it's a clear violation of policy to talk about such things, off-topic or not.

[tautech]

Well yes gnif do be the model moderator and run expressly by the rule book reacting to every report from all anyone else can see as invisible members. OTOH you’ll never know how many active members you have pissed to leave EEVblog and take their content elsewhere.
Being Solomon is HARD !

[gnif]

Well yes gnif do be the model moderator and run expressly by the rule book reacting to every report from all anyone else can see as invisible members. OTOH you’ll never know how many active members you have pissed to leave EEVblog and take their content elsewhere.
Being Solomon is HARD !

Off-topic posts aside, over the last few months the posts that the moderators here (not just myself) have had to remove from the TEA thread included:

* COVID discussions
* Gun discussions
* Political discussions
* Explosive discussions
* Direct insults towards other members (usually as a resolve of one of the political topics)

All attempts to prevent things going this far off topic failed, all warnings and requests by myself and other moderators here were ignored, these topics continued, clearly self-regulation was not working... this is simple and clear cut.

As for offending/upsetting people, after the last few days, I am over caring about those. I was trying as an imperfect human to find a good balance to get things to settle down in that thread for several months.
Did I do it perfect? No... Did I try? Yes... Was it needed... Clearly Yes.

The fact that I cared so much about not upsetting the community there and how much backlash I received for trying to do the right thing was and still is ridiculous. You want to be angry with me... sure go ahead, keep trying to make out that I was malicious or that there was alteriour motives as some have claimed. Those that I thought would have been grown adults and mature enough to see that things had gone too far and step up to help the moderators to bring things back to a acceptable norm did not, instead they got on their soapboxes and started crying, getting abusive and getting angry.

Since all this went down I have been informed that there is a TEA domain that was registered when we had the outage from the fire at the datacenter, and that there is one, perhaps two "backup" copies of atleast the TEA thread someone has been keeping a copy of for this. That incident was 8 Apr 2021, more than a year ago! Well before I felt the need to step in here and try to bring things back on track. I also have seen talk in your own new TEA community forum of trailing out other platforms/software in order to move.

To me it really feels like the few that had the biggest issue with things wanted any excuse to rile things up to the point where this move was forced. If this is the truth, who knows... but I am over caring and as such I am no longer going to perform such duties here... and I am no longer going to try to justify my actions to those that are not humble enough to accept that they might have been wrong or unfair/unjust.

Feel free to keep arguing the point, but why? It's done, you have your own forums now... now it seems you're just trying to stir trouble. This topic was re-opened to discuss the future of the thread HERE, not on what transpired.

[pcprogrammer]

Which instead if they or anyone else had engaged with the gal you would find she’s a very capable rocketeer and using explosive propellents is everyday hohum for skilled people such as her.
Again people go off half cocked instead or engaging with someone to learn what they might otherwise know jack shit about.

What are explosives anyway, come on define it !
Everything in another context can mean something entirely different.

For that I refer to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosive

I myself did not see anything about explosives, but am guilty in prolonging the gun subject, where it drifted in the regulations about them in the different countries. The other thing was about regulations on burning green waste, which was also off topic. The moment it was brought to the table that it was not allowed, I did engage a bit in what was on and what was off topic in the TEA thread. After that I left and have no idea what tripped the next demand for moderator intervention.

And I'm not suggesting anything about whom ever his/her capabilities in their own profession. That is not an issue here. It is about a polite way to tell someone that you don't agree with something they write without falling back onto name calling.

Which believe me, is something I can do very well, name calling that is. Was raised in the lower class parts of The Hague and learned lots of swear words

[Ed.Kloonk]

Off-topic posts aside, over the last few months the posts that the moderators here (not just myself) have had to remove from the TEA thread included:

* COVID discussions
* Gun discussions
* Political discussions
* Explosive discussions
* Direct insults towards other members (usually as a resolve of one of the political topics)

That's happening everywhere at the moment, G.

The next few months are going to be rough for everyone.

[gnif]

Since all this went down I have been informed that there is a TEA domain that was registered when we had the outage from the fire at the datacenter, and that there is one, perhaps two "backup" copies of atleast the TEA thread someone has been keeping a copy of for this. That incident was 8 Apr 2021, more than a year ago! Well before I felt the need to step in here and try to bring things back on track. I also have seen talk in your own new TEA community forum of trailing out other platforms/software in order to move.

Also note, with Dave's approval I would have been more then happy to provide a database export and image archive of that thread to assist your community to migrate if you had just asked. While I will still do it if Dave requests it of me, I have zero motivation to do so unless instructed to (I am also not sure about the legal ramifications of this as there may be privacy issues with posts made by now inactive members that don't wish to see their content on another forum/site).

[Halcyon]

I don't see a small minority of people leaving for an alternative forum as anything but positive for this forum. The whingers can have their little slice of the internet, while most of us are perfectly happy here.

[Ed.Kloonk]

I don't see a small minority of people leaving for an alternative forum as anything but positive for this forum. The whingers can have their little slice of the internet, while most of us are perfectly happy here.

Yep. But please consider there are (growing) small number that have had enough of authority. Facts and logic don't matter. People are M8d.

I'm on your side, but fuck. 

[tautech]

Since all this went down I have been informed that there is a TEA domain that was registered when we had the outage from the fire at the datacenter, and that there is one, perhaps two "backup" copies of atleast the TEA thread someone has been keeping a copy of for this. That incident was 8 Apr 2021, more than a year ago! Well before I felt the need to step in here and try to bring things back on track. I also have seen talk in your own new TEA community forum of trailing out other platforms/software in order to move.

Also note, with Dave's approval I would have been more then happy to provide a database export and image archive of that thread to assist your community to migrate if you had just asked. While I will still do it if Dave requests it of me, I have zero motivation to do so unless instructed to (I am also not sure about the legal ramifications of this as there may be privacy issues with posts made by now inactive members that don't wish to see their content on another forum/site).

Thanks gnif for the open discussion, it’s much appreciated.
Moving forward we’re all big boys and the TEA crowd can look after their interests of that I’m quite sure however from what I’ve seen in the last few days it won’t be here which for that I am saddened.

Anyways what’s done is done so let’s try and find something interesting and positive to move on with.

[Halcyon]

I don't see a small minority of people leaving for an alternative forum as anything but positive for this forum. The whingers can have their little slice of the internet, while most of us are perfectly happy here.

Yep. But please consider there are (growing) small number that have had enough of authority. Facts and logic don't matter. People are M8d.

I'm on your side, but fuck. 

If those people think that we are "authoritative", then they really have no idea. We let a lot slide... like A LOT.