Discussing the usage of the TEA thread

[Zenith]

deleting a "get well soon" for someone who contracted a nasty bug is overpolicing it imO.

I personally am not happy with how things went down, or reading back through it how I handled some things here as it could have been done with more tact. I apologise for that and recognise that I need to take a step back which is why I have decided I will not be involved in the moderation aspects of this forum anymore.

A thankless job, especially for someone with any sensitivity.

[Saskia]

I understand that. But still, self policing every word after 10 - 12 hours work days is too strenuous to be any fun. Which leads to my rather not posting, I might offend the "woke".

[Cerebus]

First he blows everything up, then he resigns and now he wants to apologise. All this in less than 24 hours. What a remarkable achievement.

How about a jolly leaving do in the garden of No. 10?

Is this really necessary?

Maybe he has a problem with his piles and is a little agitated?

That kind of snide, ad-hominem remark is not helpful at the best of times, in a discussion that has already upset people it's downright inflammatory. If you can't comport yourself like an adult please go and sit in the kindergarden and let the adults talk in peace.

[Saskia]

Oh boy I am getting real desperate now... as I realize this TEA thread might ACTUALLY be shut down for real ?! 

To me the entire point, value of this thread was that it was not specific to anything, but rather a live chat room where I could ask just a quick technical question, or share a quick little TE something, that otherwise would NOT warrant, by any stretch of the imagination, a dedicated thread.

It's just a TE oriented random chat room, which grew a community that I got learn appreciate and like, and that would all go down the drain if this thread was shut down. There is no substitute for what's happening here other than.. doing the same thing.

I say just rename and/or move the thread to wherever is seen fit, so that people EXPECT to find OT stuff... hence won't complain about it.

Please pretty please, let me have my TEA friends.... I got to love them all over the 18 months that I have been here, I would be heart broken if all of a sudden I could not gather with my TEA electronic friends from all over the world !!!   

Please let me keep my TEA buddies here, please !

Vince, I think a lot of us have left already.

[Cerebus]

First he blows everything up, then he resigns and now he wants to apologise. All this in less than 24 hours. What a remarkable achievement.

How about a jolly leaving do in the garden of No. 10?

Is this really necessary?

Maybe he has a problem with his piles and is a little agitated?

That kind of snide, ad-hominem remark is not helpful at the best of times, in a discussion that has already upset people it's downright inflammatory. If you can't comport yourself like an adult please go and sit in the kindergarden and let the adults talk in peace.

Oh dear, lots of upset and offended people. Perhaps you can 'report' my comment if you're feeling hurt.

Puerile and weak. I've had better rejoinders from my cat.

[Cerebus]

First he blows everything up, then he resigns and now he wants to apologise. All this in less than 24 hours. What a remarkable achievement.

How about a jolly leaving do in the garden of No. 10?

Is this really necessary?

Possibly not, but I think we're going to have to make some allowances here. There are some people very angry with gnif and biting their tongues to not be as vituperative in here as they'd like to be. Gnif has gone at the thread like a bull in a china shop, while admitting that he's not really familiar with the thread but has still charged on recklessly. So recklessly that, realising what he has done, he has felt it necessary to give up his moderating privileges. That leaves the people who care about that thread, some of them deeply,  to pick up the broken pieces from the floor. So if some those people's anger and frustration leaks out then I think we have to cut them some slack.

[Squarewave]

First he blows everything up, then he resigns and now he wants to apologise. All this in less than 24 hours. What a remarkable achievement.

How about a jolly leaving do in the garden of No. 10?

Is this really necessary?

Maybe he has a problem with his piles and is a little agitated?

That kind of snide, ad-hominem remark is not helpful at the best of times, in a discussion that has already upset people it's downright inflammatory. If you can't comport yourself like an adult please go and sit in the kindergarden and let the adults talk in peace.

Oh dear, lots of upset and offended people. Perhaps you can 'report' my comment if you're feeling hurt.

Puerile and weak. I've had better rejoinders from my cat.

That I don't doubt for one moment, no doubt at all.....

[pcprogrammer]

First he blows everything up, then he resigns and now he wants to apologise. All this in less than 24 hours. What a remarkable achievement.

How about a jolly leaving do in the garden of No. 10?

Is this really necessary?

Possibly not, but I think we're going to have to make some allowances here. There are some people very angry with gnif and biting their tongues to not be as vituperative in here as they'd like to be. Gnif has gone at the thread like a bull in a china shop, while admitting that he's not really familiar with the thread but has still charged on recklessly. So recklessly that, realising what he has done, he has felt it necessary to give up his moderating privileges. That leaves the people who care about that thread, some of them deeply,  to pick up the broken pieces from the floor. So if some those people's anger and frustration leaks out then I think we have to cut them some slack.

I can understand that people are not pleased with it, but then still there is a better way to address it then to make these kind of comments. You wrote it your self, let the adults handle it. Adults should refrain from that sort of comments and instead try to make a reasonable point about it.

I can also understand that that is not easy, but at least try, when room has been made to have a proper discussion about the problem.

Edit: and in that respect the comments Squarewave made are definitely inappropriate here. I like a bit of humor just as the next person, but there is a time and a place for it.

[Cerebus]

Please do not feed the mini-troll.

[Squarewave]

Please do not feed the mini-troll.

So is that as far as the conversation can go? You don't like it, have a moan, then pick another moan at someone who's fed up with people whining?

That's closing discussion, which apparently you don't like.

[sokoloff]

Anyone have any ideas or examples why moderating forums like this is such a thankless PITA?

[Cerebus]

Anyone have any ideas or examples why moderating forums like this is such a thankless PITA?

Look at the message directly above yours.

[Squarewave]

Anyone have any ideas or examples why moderating forums like this is such a thankless PITA?

Look at the message directly below yours.

[sokoloff]

I really doubt my point could have been better made.

[Neomys Sapiens]

I'm still drawn to and fro by this course of things.

The problem is that some of the excesses in both volume and content, which did annoy me as well, came from people which contributed interesting things and with which I might (in some cases) enjoy a little OT banter as well.
OTOH, some very valuable and adequate contributors did stay away for a long time because of this - and I have done so at one time myself.
The sensitivity which would mean, that an OT post is NOT the thing to pick a fight over is obviously also something that can't be counted upon - I'm not referring to the somewhat heavy-handed moderation here, but to other posters. Some of the most opinionated and easily goaded into their offensive/offended mode would probably be shocked for times to come if I threw my personal opinions around in the same way. But I refrain from it reasons that apply in other environments - I have to get along with most of them.

I will let my conclusion eventually be know. Either I continue my activities, and if not, I hope that my message of disengagement will be left standing where it might be.

[tautech]

First he blows everything up, then he resigns and now he wants to apologise. All this in less than 24 hours. What a remarkable achievement.

How about a jolly leaving do in the garden of No. 10?

Is this really necessary?

Possibly not, but I think we're going to have to make some allowances here. There are some people very angry with gnif and biting their tongues to not be as vituperative in here as they'd like to be. Gnif has gone at the thread like a bull in a china shop, while admitting that he's not really familiar with the thread but has still charged on recklessly. So recklessly that, realising what he has done, he has felt it necessary to give up his moderating privileges. That leaves the people who care about that thread, some of them deeply,  to pick up the broken pieces from the floor. So if some those people's anger and frustration leaks out then I think we have to cut them some slack.

Yet to gnif’s credit he has eventually listened and realised the many concerns of our TEA family and for that alone is quite an achievement.
That most of the TEA OT posts were essentially harmless when some topical matters are a part of ordinary life not something only the nuts in society engage in.
That we as a family have mainly self policed is pretty admirable yet some subjects seem to always trigger red flags for some members is in another way sad when they instead of bashing the Report button don’t engage to better understand the topical posters POV.

For decades my recreational exercise was a walk with a rifle to get a rabbit for the cat of which I do remember a post from Dave saying how much damage wild cats do in the environment yet those land holders with rabbit problems frown on you destroying them. Interesting to see something from another POV isn’t it ?

Yet if I need use my TE to repair then document and post about a chronograph, an electronic instrument used by many involved in the many types of shooting sports would I get warning for doing so ?

It’s not really reasonable to expect moderators to have such a wide life experience to judge all these edge case matters to the satisfaction of all however the fact we can engage with them as we have in the last day or so to find an outcome for the good of all is pretty cool.

Don’t let the last day discourage you gnif as we have all grown as a result of the path recently trod.

[tggzzz]

Wow; what a crater! Here's my tuppence worth...

I suspect there have been three classes of complaints that have irritated the mods:

• standard unacceptable content such as unpleasantness, guns, politics, religion. That's simple and uncontroversial and boring; the mods have always helped.
• complaints by some deeply involved TEA denizens about other denizens. By and large the denizens have been self-policing, but I'm aware of a few instances where the mods have apparently stepped in and helped
• complaints from some lurkers and some denizens about posts being off topic.

That final class is tricky. To some extent I agree, but I always skip over the uninteresting (to me) OT posts. That's an essential modern skill in all walks of life! If someone is bored by too many OT posts, then they can simply and easily "be elsewhere". They don't have to read any of the posts! The tricky aspect for the mods is, of course, how much notice to pay to lurkers that find the posts boring and/or OT.

Can the thread be "cleaned up" and "used properly again"? I don't know. To an extent the general OT banter is part of the thread's life force that keeps it going; in that case you have either or neither. Only time will tell if removing the OT banter will remove the TEA content.Can the thread resurrect itself in Another Place? Again I don't know and only time will tell.

I have little sympathy for lurkers expecting the thread to conform to their expectations. The zeitgeist is made by those that turn up and contribute.

Mention has been made that it is difficult for some to follow the subset of the thread that interests them. I have some but not too much sympathy for that.... Where there is specific information that would be useful to a wider audience in years to come, I have occasionally suggested making a separate thread - and denizens have done that. But most of the other information in the TEA thread is little better than transient tweets. More importantly, bitseeker's response was to curate pointers in the first three messages in the thread.

I have a great deal of sympathy for the mods. They do a thankless task as best they can, based on incomplete information/opinions that they can't make public. If they don't give reasons for their actions, they get called names. If they do give reasons, the barrack room lawyers descend to pick holes and poke at the edge cases. The mods can't win. The mods will make mistakes. While I may not agree with all his decisions, I'd be sorry if gnif completely stops moderating; he's better than most! I also give a lot of credit to anybody that puts their hand up and says "I didn't get it right".

Even if the TEA thread completely dies and is reincarnated elsewhere, there is still plenty of interesting stuff on this forum.

[tggzzz]

I once used to uise Groups.io, for it hosts TekScopes.... but IIRC when I stopped using it 5 years ago it was mostly because the user interface and features were painful, espeically working with images. found it orders of magnitude more convenient on EEVBlog which is why I started posting my TE repairs there, especially once I realized many of the old beard helping me on TekScope... were also subscribed to EEVblog and were helping me there as well !

The TekScopes groups.io gui is poor. It isn't a web forum, but is an email reflector with storage and a web GUI.

I believe how images can be used is a configuration option, but there is an issue with then the space (and cost) taken up on the server.

I use TekScopes as an email reflector. I get each post as a separate email, not all posts aggregated into a single email.

I read the emails in a proper old-fashioned email client, using either POP3 or IMAP. The email client automatically arranges emails in a tree, thus allowing sub-threads to be easily followed/ignored . That's better than any forum I've seen, including this one.

Web browser email GUIs are uniformly awful e.g. googlemail web GUI. Just like the groups.io web GUI, and for similar reasons.

[beanflying]

Anyone have any ideas or examples why moderating forums like this is such a thankless PITA?

Look at the message directly above yours.

Why don't you do as threatened on discord after 'I don't know whether to go and see what's happening or just leave them until the tumbleweeds start rolling and pop up with a snide remark.' then just stay there you pompous windbag! You are out of order thinking you have ANY moral grounds to critique other members opinions here based on yours and the other dribble there.

The recent 'content' in the main reads like a primary school boys conversation at lunchtime figuring out who to beat up after school. I am staggered that collectively the 4 or 5 of you would have the gall to post here ever again after some of the utter trash typed and accusations and slagging off about Gnif in particular but also Dave and Halcyon.

The juvenile behaviour in totally AND WILLFULLY ignoring Dave and other Mods posts in the TEA thread from what was a few weeks ago now has led to this and the noise ratio has been increasing since to try and make some sort of point about 'our playpen and our rules'. This like all forums is not a democracy and has rules which 'in general' are evenly applied.

That said from when I first dropped in to the TEA thread 4 or 5 years ago there was ALWAYS a percentage of Off Topic when something in one of our lives cropped up that we thought others might find interesting or amusing. TEA or Electronics was always at 80% at a guess. It has descended to likely well under 50% as some have chosen to treat it like a chat group on their daily lives.

No I haven't reported ANYONE or ANYTHING in the TEA thread and until the BS of a few weeks ago was brought to my attention afterward by another member hadn't wasted my life sifting through the weeds for months.

This is a thing CAUSED by a few who couldn't pull their heads in not some sort of heavy handed policing issue.

[gnif]

At the end of the day people can be as angry at they like at me or the way I handled this, but I will say one thing, the https://groups.io/g/tea forum I believe is a benefit to everyone on both sides of this fence. The content there already shows that the TEA group needed a larger and more flexible forum for their community and content. Seeing as the majority of posts there are what would be considered off topic for this forum (yes it's early days, and I ack there is too little data to make a fair assessment here) i'd say that it's a good move for them and their friends and I wish them the best with it.

For anyone that feels that I/we tried to push this group off the server, please know you're wrong. There is/was no desire or intent to ever push the TEA group away from this forum for any reason, technical or otherwise. For anyone that felt targeted, please know that the actions I took were in my belief in the best interests of the community. Through this it seems evident that I am simply out of touch with the community in a way that prevents me from being an effective moderator here.

Some have made noise that it might have been to keep the server resources down, etc... please be aware that I am fervently against culling content to reduce server load/database size, I take great professional pride in keeping large forums/sites like this running without having to make such compromises. You should also know that having a single 5000 page thread with SMF is no different to having 5000 individual posts due to the way that SMF handles threads, and things like the 'post/page count' which can cause issues (the simple act of counting them, SELECT COUNT type queries) we already have a solution for that scales. This forum is actually the 2nd largest one that I manage the hosting for, the largest being an order of magnitude larger and busier (see attached).

[Dundarave]

“That said from when I first dropped in to the TEA thread 4 or 5 years ago there was ALWAYS a percentage of Off Topic when something in one of our lives cropped up that we thought others might find interesting or amusing. TEA or Electronics was always at 80% at a guess. It has descended to likely well under 50% as some have chosen to treat it like a chat group on their daily lives.”

Exactly this.  It’s been turned into a Facebook group: pictures of meals, woodworking projects, family discussions, personal employment sagas and everything in between.

Good job gnif.  I think you’ve had a very tough go of it, including all the intimidation, and you certainly don’t deserve the abuse being doled out.

[joeqsmith]

Since there's Dogs, Cats and Cooking threads here maybe the TEA thread should be renamed "Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy café" and moved to the general chat section? That should make everyone happy, not? I've not been very active posting in the thread but I've been there from the beginning and read (or skipped) every post in there. It's a community and I would feel sad to see it go, which will happen with the current attitude.

Paul

This IMO is a good idea and Dave may wish to do so. After this ordeal I have decided to step down as a moderator here and return to server admin/management tasks only. My last act as moderator will be to lock this thread (not the TEA thread) when it's run it's course.

I thought you have been a mod since I joined.   I've been dinged a few times but don't hold any malice towards the mods or Dave over it.  If I felt there was a major problem, I would just stop posting.   Its a bit late but I felt the whole team was doing a very good job keeping the site in check.   If you decide to step back in to a mod position, I would certainly welcome you back. 

[EPAIII]

If you look at the title of this post, you will see that I have edited it. So the title, which appears at the top of every post in a thread can be edited. Actually it can be COMPLETELY REPLACED.

So, how about a rule that requires off topic posts to, at the very least, have the prefix "OT: " added at the beginning of the title whenever a post is about something not within the scope of the original, thread title? That way anyone scrolling through the thread can quickly skip over any posts that are not on topic. This is a convention that is used on many internet bbs.

And any posts that do not follow this rule can be reported to the moderators who, I assume, can add that prefix to the title. And perhaps gently remind the offender of the need for that prefix.

[gnif]

Unfortunately the forum/thread notify function is indiscriminate and still will "spam" mailboxes with notifications for stuff people are not interested in.

[EPAIII]

Oh well, I tried. I did not know that.

I wonder if the authors of the BB software might want to work on that. I have tried to make suggestions to one of those companies before and, since I was not the purchaser of the BB software, they completely ignored my suggestion. So the owner/purchaser of the software used here would have to make the suggestion.

BTW, as a person who greatly appreciates this board, I would like to thank the owner, demonstrator(s), and moderators for their contributions.

Unfortunately the forum/thread notify function is indiscriminate and still will "spam" mailboxes with notifications for stuff people are not interested in.