Discussing the usage of the TEA thread

[Ice-Tea]

I don't have the time to go over the entire controversy but in case anyone is interested in another take, here it is (and sorry if it all has been said before).

I don't mind the OT stuff. At all. It's part of that community (because, yes, the TEA thread is a community all on its own). That being said, there are a few topics that tend to derail the thread (further then it derails normally that is) and there are a few interpersonal issues that also have considerable incendiary potential.

In case that's not clear: the people sharing the non-electronic related details of their lives are the same ones that post a lot of the informative deeply electronics related posts you won't find anywhere else. A lot of the others that don't every detail of their lives enjoy the atmosphere and the accesibility that it creates. Banning all non-electronics topics will suck the life life from that thread. It is a far too wide spectrum tool to wield. At the same time, putting a stop to some of the "trigger" subject wouldn't be bad and stopping some the regulars going to bat (as has been done a few times before) is a good idea as well.

The problem, I would assume, is that none of the mods are involved deeply enough to "feel" the nuances of that special thread. Which is normal. I mean, who has the time

The perfect solution, in my book, would be to have a dedicated mod for that thread. A regular of that community. A level headed and respected one, who does not have (too much) of a "history". And no, I'm not a candidate.

[Brumby]

If the moderatorial power trip continues....

Mods only respond to Reports - so they should ignore all the members that report?  If nobody reported anything, then I'm sure the Mods would appreciate being able to spend their time on their own pursuits rather than work out how to resolve a situation they did not create.

Remember, you don't get to see those reports, who they're from and what they are reporting about.  This is a key element of Privacy that Mods have an obligation to honour.

[Brumby]

The problem, I would assume, is that none of the mods are involved deeply enough to "feel" the nuances of that special thread. Which is normal. I mean, who has the time

The Mods do not need to feel the "nuances" of anything.  They simply respond to Reports.  How they respond is related to the content of those reports - not by any personal agenda  (and applying objective action is one genuinely hard task at times.)

The perfect solution, in my book, would be to have a dedicated mod for that thread. A regular of that community. A level headed and respected one, who does not have (too much) of a "history". And no, I'm not a candidate.

Aside from getting a consensus for a suitable person, having a single point of failure (which is what that would amount to) is never a good idea.  What if they get sick or go on holiday?

[pcprogrammer]

If the moderatorial power trip continues....

Mods only respond to Reports - so they should ignore all the members that report?  If nobody reported anything, then I'm sure the Mods would appreciate being able to spend their time on their own pursuits rather than work out how to resolve a situation they did not create.

Remember, you don't get to see those reports, who they're from and what they are reporting about.  This is a key element of Privacy that Mods have an obligation to honour.

In some way it could be helpful to know, but on the other hand we can't handle the truth that well. Egos might get hurt and will create fallout.

[gnif]

What has made the TEA thread in particular so popular is its very nature, including all the "technically" off topic asides. There's off-topic stuff across the whole forum, in most threads, and singling this one out for "super secret probation" while not applying the same degree of attention to the rest of the place while the usual suspects troll, bicker and insult with impunity is just pointless. All it's doing is pissing off a bunch of people who make the TEA thread what it is.

The thread was not singled out, if there is bickering or issues going on elsewhere, make a report so that we can take action.

Trolls are difficult to make a determination for and we need to observe behaviour over time to be sure we are not overreacting to someone who just has a different manner/culture or idea of what is going on.

Bickering can also be difficult to make a determination for as written text does not contain the "tone" of what was said. One person may feel it's bickering while the other party is just from a different country and doesn't realise they are speaking in a way that's coming across as bickering.

As for insulting, we have a hard and fast rule about that and when reported we deal with it... if it's not reported and we do not see it, there is nothing we can do.

I also suspect that the past lack of any worthwhile moderation elsewhere is what's driving the whole forum moribund. Who wants to join in yet another thread where the usual suspects bicker with each other, or anybody else who comes along. It's probably too late to fix that as leaving the usual suspects to their thing for so long has probably polluted the culture of the place sufficiently to permanently poison it. It's worth noting that the electronics content of the usual suspects postings is close to zero anyway.

Then report them so we can observe them and take action if needed.

So, instead of tackling the usual suspects the one thread that is generally the home of good mannered bonhomie becomes the centre of attention.

It currently has the centre of attention because there was a problem... a few weeks ago when things settled down, it seemed it was resolved. Until the rash of OT posts again today and yesterday and the reports about it, it again became the centre of attention. Imagine that, we moderators look at what is being reported and do our best to sort things out when there is an issue.

None of the normal TEA inhabitants can quite work out Dave's rationale for this, or why we're hearing from the two moderators who are normally least active in moderating and not from Dave himself. The only rationale that can be divined so far appears to be that Dave's been pointing out to people that they should come to the TEA thread because it's where the addicts hang out - then he gets a few more subscribers who don't like it, so he proceeds to try and change it. Cart before horse error there I think.

I think that gnif's most recent spate of vandalism may be the straw that broke the camel's back. Don't be surprised if the TEA thread becomes the home of tumbleweeds and the people who made it what it was go elsewhere. The discussion as to whether that is going to happen is already going on "in another place", as they say in the mother of all parliaments.

So we are supposed to allow posts about guns, explosives, politics? Two weeks ago (ish?) I literally had to remove a post that was detailing such things. And why do you think that deleting an off-topic post that violated the instructions given after warning that this would happen is vandalism? How is it any different from removing the content of the post and making it known that the post was off topic in an attempt to make the person that posted it aware that it was off topic?

Why/how hard to just follow the ONE simple instruction of "posts must be electronics related"? How is this unreasonable?

[Cerebus]

If the moderatorial power trip continues....

Mods only respond to Reports - so they should ignore all the members that report?  If nobody reported anything, then I'm sure the Mods would appreciate being able to spend their time on their own pursuits rather than work out how to resolve a situation they did not create.

Remember, you don't get to see those reports, who they're from and what they are reporting about.  This is a key element of Privacy that Mods have an obligation to honour.

It's quite clear that gnif is deleting stuff without user complaints. He just deleted what was effectively an "I'm going quiet" message from me in TEA within seconds of it having been posted. I frankly don't trust him anymore to not do similar here to control the conversation.

[gnif]

It's quite clear that gnif is deleting stuff without user complaints. He just deleted what was effectively an "I'm going quiet" message from me in TEA within seconds of it having been posted. I frankly don't trust him anymore to not do similar here to control the conversation.

No, I am deleting things that are off topic...
Attached is your post and I am sorry if it was simply I am going silent message and I miss-understood your message, however it could have been said here.
See attached.

[Cerebus]

So we are supposed to allow posts about guns, explosives, politics? Two weeks ago (ish?) I literally had to remove a post that was detailing such things. And why do you think that deleting an off-topic post that violated the instructions given after warning that this would happen is vandalism? How is it any different from removing the content of the post and making it known that the post was off topic in an attempt to make the person that posted it aware that it was off topic?

Why/how hard to just follow the ONE simple instruction of "posts must be electronics related"? How is this unreasonable?

You know very well that I am not talking about verboten subjects such as gun-nut posts, but water cooler talk that made the TEA thread what it was and now no longer will be if you have your way. In fact by making the false parallel you are proving conclusively that this is not about wandering off topic too far, but about power and control. If you really can't tell the difference between content known by all to be inflammatory and harmless chat and handle the moderation of both with some nuance and finesse, then you've got more of a problem than the TEA thread mainstays walking out

[Ice-Tea]

Aside from getting a consensus for a suitable person, having a single point of failure (which is what that would amount to) is never a good idea.  What if they get sick or go on holiday?

What single point of failure? Leave the day to day handling to a certain person, there are still other mods around as a backup.

[sokoloff]

Personal anecdote/single datapoint:
I went to have a look to find that I have exactly one post in the subject thread, but I recall that I used to read it semi-regularly. In just now clicking on the "New" link (to jump to my latest unread in that thread) and landed on a page from Sept 2020. So, for almost two years, I've not been reading a thread that I used to read daily. If I scroll back from that point a few pages, I have to say that the thread was very much on-topic "enough" that the reason for me stopping wasn't related to the content being off-topic.

Jumping around a few hundred pages at a time and visually scanning the thread, it doesn't seem particularly and pervasively off-topic, but the interesting piece to me was that many posters were posting both on and off-topic content. Some very technical (and valued to me) contributors were weighing in on rainy weather and proper clothing/footwear for attending different events. So, "just block posts from members whom you don't want to read content from" isn't a workable answer.

I'm mostly aligned with this point of view, but it really requires people being willing to let conversations drop once everyone has said their piece:

Exactly this, IMO, all the off-topic chat that goes on here is what has been previously described as water cooler talk, the sort of chatter you get while standing at the bar ordering a round drinks. Someone has a comment that they think is of common interest to most people without being technical, ie. a social comment, and once out in the open, disappears into the ether unless someone deliberately stirs the pot and causes a melee.

Based on some other threads, I have doubts that people are broadly capable of letting a topic drop unless they believe everyone agrees with their pet position (witness the xkcd above).

My advice (which may have zero or negative value) is to try to find a way to allow small excursions outside the strict boundaries, but if that fails , the site owners and mods need to make a call. (Maybe we're already at that point; I don't know.)

[Neper]

Why/how hard to just follow the ONE simple instruction of "posts must be electronics related"? How is this unreasonable?

It would be just another electronics thread/forum with no particular interest. There are dozens of them elsewhere. The mix of on and off topic messages with a light dusting of banter has kept TEA alive. You're about to turn it into a GULA... pardon... a graveyard.

[Ed.Kloonk]

Why/how hard to just follow the ONE simple instruction of "posts must be electronics related"? How is this unreasonable?

It would be just another electronics thread/forum with no particular interest. There are dozens of them elsewhere. The mix of on and off topic messages with a light dusting of banter has kept TEA alive. You're about to turn it into a GULA... pardon... a graveyard.

But are the supporters of side banter prepared to help tone down (things such as) gun talk if it starts?

[Cerebus]

It's quite clear that gnif is deleting stuff without user complaints. He just deleted what was effectively an "I'm going quiet" message from me in TEA within seconds of it having been posted. I frankly don't trust him anymore to not do similar here to control the conversation.

No, I am deleting things that are off topic...
Attached is your post and I am sorry if it was simply I am going silent message and I miss-understood your message, however it could have been said here.
See attached.

It could have been said here? A topic that has existed for a few hours, when I'm trying to inform people in a thread I've inhabited for years that I'm deliberately going quiet and that those who know me know where to find me? Pull the other one.

What I wanted to say was more pointed and would have directly referenced the fact that I was no longer going to participate until until either the moderators had all reacquired their sanity or all the TEA regulars had pissed off to somewhere else. I could have done that, but I deliberately refrained from doing so, avoiding being confrontational, disruptive or anything other than informative.

Like I say, I think you've made a fait accompli and the TEA thread is effectively dead as of today's outburst of moderatorial intolerance. There's already a groups.io mailing list made some long time ago and the discord discussion that's been running for years is taking on a new life. You're going to get exactly what you're asking for but without the participation of the regulars who provide most of the on-topic discussion as well as the off-topic discussion.

[gnif]

You know very well that I am not talking about verboten subjects such as gun-nut posts, but water cooler talk that made the TEA thread what it was and now no longer will be if you have your way. In fact by making the false parallel you are proving conclusively that this is not about wandering off topic too far, but about power and control. If you really can't tell the difference between content known by all to be inflammatory and harmless chat and handle the moderation of both with some nuance and finesse, then you've got more of a problem than the TEA thread mainstays walking out

Ok, let me put this into simple terms.... we volunteer our time to moderate these forums.

1) We have day jobs, families, lives outside of these forums
2) Our time is limited and we respond to moderation reports as we can.
3) Recently the TEA thread has been generating the most moderator report noise due to off-topic posts.
4) Upon investigation it's apparent that it has devolved far enough that there were posts about woodworking, road rules, covid and finally someone decided that it was OK to start posting a topic on guns/explosives.
5) These posts were removed, and it was made clear that this could not continue this way and the only way forward was to remain on the topic of electronics.
6) This was argued against, etc... but eventually things settled down and the TEA thread started to get a better SNR.
7) Again, reports flared up because people had gone back to ignoring the instructions given and again challenged the requirement that topics be kept related to electronics, even if that relationship was tenuous.
A line was drawn in the sand.
9) The line was crossed.

What do you expect?

It could have been said here? A topic that has existed for a few hours, when I'm trying to inform people in a thread I've inhabited for years that I'm deliberately going quiet and that those who know me know where to find me? Pull the other one.

Fair enough, and I apologise, I was too quick to act here.

Edit: Nice ninja edit there... (attached)
This thread will not be altered, deleted, etc... The only thing that will happen is it will be locked when it has run it's course.

[Neper]

But are the supporters of side banter prepared to help tone down (things such as) gun talk if it starts?

They have done so in the past and it has worked.

[sokoloff]

Would a different set of moderators for that one thread be workable (or possible/worth trying)?

Possibly a superset, with the new "front line" moderators being responsible for the day to day janitorial cleanup of the most egregious/mod-time-wasting content?

[gnif]

Would a different set of moderators for that one thread be workable (or possible/worth trying)?

Possibly a superset, with the new "front line" moderators being responsible for the day to day janitorial cleanup of the most egregious/mod-time-wasting content?

Personally I like this idea, but ultimately it is up to Dave (@EEVBlog)

[TERRA Operative]

I find it interesting the members who are most up in arms about this issue....

It's a test equipment thread on an electronics forum. It's being moderated because other members are complaining about it being off topic from this very clear subject.

It is the members that are making reports because they don't like the off topic stuff Not sure how this keeps being misconstrued as the moderators fault, when it's the people are actively voting in favour of the established rules?
I also don't see how mods following the will of these members, that the reasonable forum rules are followed, is going to spell Armageddon for this forum?.....

Meh, if some people here want to cut off their nose to spite their face and throw their toys out of the play pen, I'll still sit here and play regardless. I just want to talk about electronics.

Like I say, I think you've made a fait accompli and the TEA thread is effectively dead as of today's outburst of moderatorial intolerance. There's already a groups.io mailing list made some long time ago and the discord discussion that's been running for years is taking on a new life. You're going to get exactly what you're asking for but without the participation of the regulars who provide most of the on-topic discussion as well as the off-topic discussion.

The TEA thread will not die because you or a few others leave. Don't make the mistake in thinking that. From the number of reports of complaints, a bit of a member self-pruning from the thread may actually see new members start posting there once all the off-topic stuff ends......
I don't want to see anyone leave, but, well, if the off topic stuff abates due to this, so be it.

[ebastler]

It's a test equipment thread on an electronics forum.

No, I would argue that's actually not what it is. It is the "Test Equipment Anonymous group therapy" thread. As defined (in a slightly tongue-in-cheek way) in its title and initial post, the thread deals not with test equipment, but with the affliction of collecting it.

If a strictly technical thread on various test equipment is what Dave wants, he should set up a new thread -- something like "My latest Test Equipment Acquisition". Complaining that the TEA thread, while titled and described as it currently is, takes a rather "holistic" view of TEA, seems besides the point.

[gnif]

No, I would argue that's actually not what it is. It is the "Test Equipment Anonymous group therapy" thread. As defined (in a slightly tongue-in-cheek way) in its title and initial post, the thread deals not with test equipment, but with the affliction of collecting it.

Indeed, which there is no issue as the "affliction of collecting it", as you are talking about electronics still... yes, it's a general discussion, about electronics and the impact it has on you, your wife/family, etc. At the end of the day though, it's still the topic of electronics.

The issue we have is when it goes off on a tangent and is discussing how to varnish & sand a wooden table.

[Ice-Tea]

No, I would argue that's actually not what it is. It is the "Test Equipment Anonymous group therapy" thread. As defined (in a slightly tongue-in-cheek way) in its title and initial post, the thread deals not with test equipment, but with the affliction of collecting it.

Indeed, which there is no issue as the "affliction of collecting it", as you are talking about electronics still... yes, it's a general discussion, about electronics and the impact it has on you, your wife/family, etc. At the end of the day though, it's still the topic of electronics.

The issue we have is when it goes off on a tangent and is discussing how to varnish & sand a wooden table.

You are possibly missing the point. The analogy only goes so far as the whole point of that thread is not exactly to cure others of TEA but at the same time I don't imagine you only talk about beer and scotch at AA meetings. It's just as much about being a supportive community. I could do with a bit less of sanding advise myself but I have been around that thread long enough to understand that it's part of the fabric of it.

[gnif]

No, I would argue that's actually not what it is. It is the "Test Equipment Anonymous group therapy" thread. As defined (in a slightly tongue-in-cheek way) in its title and initial post, the thread deals not with test equipment, but with the affliction of collecting it.

Indeed, which there is no issue as the "affliction of collecting it", as you are talking about electronics still... yes, it's a general discussion, about electronics and the impact it has on you, your wife/family, etc. At the end of the day though, it's still the topic of electronics.

The issue we have is when it goes off on a tangent and is discussing how to varnish & sand a wooden table.

You are possibly missing the point. The analogy only goes so far as the whole point of that thread is not exactly to cure others of TEA but at the same time I don't imagine you only talk about beer and scotch at AA meetings. It's just as much about being a supportive community. I could do with a bit less of sanding advise myself but I have been around that thread long enough to understand that it's part of the fabric of it.

I may be as I am not intimate with the thread.

This is all now a moot point though as those that are taking issue to the thread needing to be more on topic to the content of this forum have decided to setup their own group.
We will continue to keep the TEA thread open and available for use for those that wish to continue to use it but please be aware that we will expect the conditions of use stated in the first two posts here to be adhered to if you do.

While I am deeply sorry that the founder of the thread has decided to move, I hope that the end result is beneficial to both the electronics community here as a whole, and the TEA community and I wish them the best of luck.

[sokoloff]

That's a classy response to the situation, probably classier than the one that I'd muster on average.

[PA0PBZ]

Since there's Dogs, Cats and Cooking threads here maybe the TEA thread should be renamed "Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy café" and moved to the general chat section? That should make everyone happy, not? I've not been very active posting in the thread but I've been there from the beginning and read (or skipped) every post in there. It's a community and I would feel sad to see it go, which will happen with the current attitude.

Paul

[gnif]

Since there's Dogs, Cats and Cooking threads here maybe the TEA thread should be renamed "Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy café" and moved to the general chat section? That should make everyone happy, not? I've not been very active posting in the thread but I've been there from the beginning and read (or skipped) every post in there. It's a community and I would feel sad to see it go, which will happen with the current attitude.

Paul

This IMO is a good idea and Dave may wish to do so. After this ordeal I have decided to step down as a moderator here and return to server admin/management tasks only. My last act as moderator will be to lock this thread (not the TEA thread) when it's run it's course.