Discussing the usage of the TEA thread

[tggzzz]

Surely, removing nested quoting will only add more confusion as some readers will struggle to understand the context of the points being raised and then more unrest would be the end result?

You can click on the hyperlink in the quote which brings you to the post being quoted, the full context is never lost, just takes a tiny bit of effort to view.
If the forum were more advanced you could probably have auto-collapsing context, and let it be a user setting.

Only in simple twatter like posts.

Many replies to complex interesting posts have multiple points that are best interleaved with the original.

If you want non-nested quoting, go to stackexchange or edaboard. There's a good chance you will see what I mean, and come back.

And if pigs had wings they could fly.

(See, even responses to boring trivial posts benefit from interleaving, to associate one point with the other).

[EEVblog]

As per the other TEA forum, it seems that at least one person is pissed off that people where trying to explain to me what was happening in the TEA thread and I "didn't listen" or ignored the whole thing.
This is not true. I literally had no idea any discussion was taking place in TEA because I don't read nor frequent the TEA thread. First thing i heard about any of this was when I was allerted to this thread here that was already a dozen pages deep. I posted a few minutes after eventually seeing this thread.

When big shit like this is going down on the forum, do me and everyone a favour and don't assume that I know what's going on. My daily use on the forum is limited to a few threads I'm interested in and the occasional browse of new ones. TEA is not one of them.

I get the same moderator report email alerts as the other mods, but the others are so quick to respond that I rarely get a chance to see what went down, so I just assume it was taken care of and everyone went back their merry way.

Except we did tell you. Directly to your face and to the moderators. If you weren't aware, it isn't for lack of us trying to open a dialogue

Sorry, but that's not the case. You thought you were, and that's no fault of you or anyone else. As I said before, this thing was going on for at least 4 days before I found out about it. Why? Because I don't read the TEA thread.
And no one, not a single user alerted me to what was happening (subject to the gnif email I missed as I metioned before).
No messages like "hey, stuff is getting wild in the TEA thread, you should really do something".

For the last time, I literally not had idea any of this was happening.

Sorry, that's on me because I missed an email message gnif sent me 5 days ago. I can't go back in time and fix that, it's done.

[EEVblog]

Let's just leave TEA as it is now for some weeks and see how it goes.

A grain of OT should be allowed for that. Maybe we manage to get a wee better in self moderation in the future.

A reminder that this forum is amost entirely self moderated.
If you want a thread to go in a certain direction then you should simply not engage in disputes and just post on-topic stuff, everyone can lead by example. One or two on-topic posts kicks starts the thread again back on track, almost every time.
Practically every thread on here drifts off-topic for a post or two, it is a natural consequence of human interaction. But we have rules so we have something to fall back on if things get out of hand, just like the other new TEA forum has the same rules.

Moderation on this forum is almost entirely based on reports from users. If there are no reports then we assume everyone is happy and the forum is running smoothly.
And probably 90% of the time someone reports a post, it's for a single post someone found offensive or off-topic or whatever that will be forgotten about by the very next post, so there is no need to take any action. Once we see a few reports from different users about the same thing, that's when we know something probably needs to be done.

[EEVblog]

In short, your poll data is very anonymous.

In some ways I'd prefer it to be an open poll, so we could see where everyone stands.

This is not even an option in the forum software. People are of course free to post "I voted X" if they want people to know.

[thm_w]

Only in simple twatter like posts.

Many replies to complex interesting posts have multiple points that are best interleaved with the original.

If you want non-nested quoting, go to stackexchange or seaboard. There's a good chance you will see what I mean, and come back.

And if pigs had wings they could fly.

(See, even responses to boring trivial posts benefit from interleaving, to associate one point with the other).

The complexity of the post or interleaving doesn't affect that, if you click the link at the top of the quote it will bring you to the post being quoted.
If you interleave then you'd scroll up to the first link you see.

edit: I think I might see what you mean though, but, to arrive there the initial post you are quoting would be quite disorganized and might deserve a second post or something. Anyway, I would only want the collapse ability if it existed, not disabling.

[EEVblog]

I can get "not watching the day-to-day"... but when a user is engaged in a direct, face-to-face discussion with you, I think it's reasonable to expect you to have read what they've said. As owner, especially where moderation of a thread has become "an issue", I think "not being aware" of the post above which quotes you is... well... just plain a weak excuse too.

I can understand how this looks to you, but please understand how this works from my viewpoint:
TEA is not a thread I frequent, and there are so many posts per day in there that if you come back even hours later it's onto another page of posts entirely.

This is how it usually goes down:
I got a moderator report, I went in to take a look, maybe spend a small bit of time looking at some older posts for context, and then responded. Then I left to do other non-forum stuff.
Unless I remember to go back to that particular thread hours or days later, I'm not going to see the response. I often remember to do this out of interest, but in the case of TEA I know that there are so many posts it would take me some time to find it again. So my brain probably filed this under "oh, there is a little kerfuffle in the TEA thread where really passionate people hand out, meh, they'll sort it out."

In the case of your quoted posts of me above, I don't actually remember writing them, probably because I didn't have a deep vested interested in this TEA discussion. I got a report, and I did a fly by post, that happens a lot.
In this case it just happend to be very important to you and some others and I missed the gist of it, sorry, my fault for not realising at the time that this was serious.
I don't know what more to say.

[bsfeechannel]

Why? I considered a nice "Welcome" as being polite from the regulars to potentially new TEA members.

"TEA members". Before we get to that, for the record, I love the TEA thread. Although I post there very occasionally, I read it almost every day. I even developed a technique to cope with all the activity: I read it from the last post back to where I left it the day before, and to filter the OTs, I try mostly to read the posts with pictures of TEs, because I don't have time to read everything.

Having said that, I'm trying to interpret the sentiment of exclusion some feel toward the thread. If you're talking about TEA members, is there some kind of implicit membership? Aren't all the forum users members of all threads? If it's adequate to welcome "new TEA members", is there a situation when someone, given they abide the forum rules, is not welcome?

Bitseeker reflection that "(t)he size and visibility of the TEA thread has become too much for the forum" may hide other aspects the TEA "membership" needs to address, perhaps.

I can only regret his departure. He did an amazing job cataloguing the points of interest along the thread. And yes, he welcomed me when I starting posting there a few years ago.

[coromonadalix]

Would it be better to close this thread ?  To let people cool off ?

A memento of what was good and what became bad.

[EEVblog]

"TEA members". Before we get to that, for the record, I love the TEA thread. Although I post there very occasionally, I read it almost every day. I even developed a technique to cope with all the activity: I read it from the last post back to where I left it the day before, and to filter the OTs, I try mostly to read the posts with pictures of TEs, because I don't have time to read everything.

When I drop in there occasionally, yeah, I like to look at the photos of test gear. I've even taken some interesting photos and tweeted them with a link.

[sokoloff]

"TEA members"…
Having said that, I'm trying to interpret the sentiment of exclusion some feel toward the thread. If you're talking about TEA members, is there some kind of implicit membership?

Yes, I think there is. If I’ve participated weekly or more over a sustained period of time in a 5500+ page thread, I’m a member of that thread in a soft, squishy, but still real way, same as if I went to the same local pub every Thursday and Friday for years.

Aren't all the forum users members of all threads?

In a (n overly?) pedantic sense, yes, just as I’m a patron of the local pub the very first time I go buy a pint there.

If it's adequate to welcome "new TEA members", is there a situation when someone, given they abide the forum rules, is not welcome?

The state transition that happens via these welcome messages is not from “unwelcome” to “welcome”, but rather of “not yet welcomed” to “welcomed”.

It’s a matter of routine social graces and overt inclusion. Part of the evidence of that is that you personally remember that you were welcomed by a particular member. You might feel the same if a pub regular called you over and clinked glasses with you or the first time the bartender greeted you by name and started pulling your pint as you walked in. You were always welcome, but now you’ve been welcomed.

[Brumby]

Well, it always used to be just another thread under the Test Equipment banner and to my knowledge since the decision was made by someone to make it a sticky and also to make it the number 1 sticky....

Just a small point, but one I felt needed addressing.

Stickies are just another section of a board and follow the same positioning as threads in the non-sticky section.  The TEA thread stays at the top position nearly all the time because it is the most frequently posted to, but nobody set it there.

I did a bump post in another thread to demonstrate:

[EEVblog]

Well, it always used to be just another thread under the Test Equipment banner and to my knowledge since the decision was made by someone to make it a sticky and also to make it the number 1 sticky....

Stickies are just another section of a board and follow the same positioning as threads in the non-sticky section.  The TEA thread stays at the top position nearly all the time because it is the most frequently posted to, but nobody set it there.

Correct. There is no abilty to set the position.

[bitseeker]

I can get "not watching the day-to-day"... but when a user is engaged in a direct, face-to-face discussion with you, I think it's reasonable to expect you to have read what they've said. As owner, especially where moderation of a thread has become "an issue", I think "not being aware" of the post above which quotes you is... well... just plain a weak excuse too.

...

In the case of your quoted posts of me above, I don't actually remember writing them, probably because I didn't have a deep vested interested in this TEA discussion. I got a report, and I did a fly by post, that happens a lot.
In this case it just happend to be very important to you and some others and I missed the gist of it, sorry, my fault for not realising at the time that this was serious.
I don't know what more to say.

Although not directed to me, I see what you mean.

Why? I considered a nice "Welcome" as being polite from the regulars to potentially new TEA members.

 I'm trying to interpret the sentiment of exclusion some feel toward the thread. If you're talking about TEA members, is there some kind of implicit membership? Aren't all the forum users members of all threads? If it's adequate to welcome "new TEA members", is there a situation when someone, given they abide the forum rules, is not welcome?

BU508A, right above your reply, put it quite succinctly and sokoloff enhanced it eloquently when he wrote:

The state transition that happens via these welcome messages is not from “unwelcome” to “welcome”, but rather of “not yet welcomed” to “welcomed”.

It’s a matter of routine social graces and overt inclusion. Part of the evidence of that is that you personally remember that you were welcomed by a particular member. You might feel the same if a pub regular called you over and clinked glasses with you or the first time the bartender greeted you by name and started pulling your pint as you walked in. You were always welcome, but now you’ve been welcomed.

It is because it's not necessary that it adds to the experience, the intangibles of belonging to a community.

Bitseeker reflection that "(t)he size and visibility of the TEA thread has become too much for the forum" may hide other aspects the TEA "membership" needs to address, perhaps.

Many arguments thus far have been about ancillary things. There are also fundamentals that need to be solved. It isn't just one thing and they're not all easy nor simple to grasp at a glance. It's hard being human. Even harder when there are many.

I can only regret his departure. He did an amazing job cataloguing the points of interest along the thread. And yes, he welcomed me when I starting posting there a few years ago.

I'm not gone. I do need a break, though. Recent events and their effect on sleep does wear on a person both mentally and physically.

[tggzzz]

Only in simple twatter like posts.

Many replies to complex interesting posts have multiple points that are best interleaved with the original.

If you want non-nested quoting, go to stackexchange or seaboard. There's a good chance you will see what I mean, and come back.

And if pigs had wings they could fly.

(See, even responses to boring trivial posts benefit from interleaving, to associate one point with the other).

The complexity of the post or interleaving doesn't affect that, if you click the link at the top of the quote it will bring you to the post being quoted.
If you interleave then you'd scroll up to the first link you see.

edit: I think I might see what you mean though, but, to arrive there the initial post you are quoting would be quite disorganized and might deserve a second post or something. Anyway, I would only want the collapse ability if it existed, not disabling.

Omitting context by shipping what you wrote is a favoured technique of those that are losing an argument and want to slew the discussion by using strawman arguments. That is, of course, a reprehensible debating technique, but it happens all too often.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/programming/any-examples-of-os-not-written-in-cc/msg3550788/#msg3550788

The ability to accurately specify the context of your reply is crucial where I make a point, someone makes a counterpoint, ,I rebut their counterpoint, etc. Where you are telling someone something they don't really want to hear, there is zero chance they will be psychologically prepared to follow links to discover why they are wrong.

But it isnt necessary to invoke antisocial behaviour. Here's a good natured technical example where interleaving makes the discussion possible. Rebuttalt to my points would be inserted somewhere in the middle (and it might have happened in this case!)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/microcontrollers/interrupt-routine-duration/?action=post;quote=4358599;last_msg=4360132

Overall, multilevel quoting can, like any other tool,be misused. But if someone uses a chisel to damage some wood, that not a reason to remove chisels from the toolbox.

[Specmaster]

Well, it always used to be just another thread under the Test Equipment banner and to my knowledge since the decision was made by someone to make it a sticky and also to make it the number 1 sticky....

Stickies are just another section of a board and follow the same positioning as threads in the non-sticky section.  The TEA thread stays at the top position nearly all the time because it is the most frequently posted to, but nobody set it there.

Correct. There is no abilty to set the position.

True, it was perhaps the incorrect statement by me, but putting it as a sticky, coupled with you giving it plugs in your video blog does tend to suggest to others that it is the place to be for all things test equipment, which clearly it isn't. I doubt that anybody can deny that it has lead to a large increase in the number of "new" visitors to the TEA thread (note I didn't say newbies), and that many were disappointed by their findings and this lead to a greater uplift in the level of complaints because these "new" complaints were added onto the old existing complaints and it was that new level which triggered the admin team to take a look and miss handle to the situation, and it exploded as a direct result.

There will always a certain level of people in any large group who will be disruptive, its in their nature and these people can be found in every walk of life, and judging by the comments already made, the other threads have their share of these people, and it would seem, enough to keep the admin team busy in those threads, while historically leaving TEA to by and large self police, which we have generally done very effectively

[Brumby]

I'm not gone. I do need a break, though. Recent events and their effect on sleep does wear on a person both mentally and physically.

Entirely understandable - and I'm sure you're not alone.


It is my hope that we all find a constructive way forward.

[Brumby]

... to a large increase in the number of "new" visitors to the TEA thread (note I didn't say newbies), and that many were disappointed by their findings and this lead to a greater uplift in the level of complaints because these "new" complaints were added onto the old existing complaints and it was that new level which triggered the admin team to take a look and miss handle to the situation, and it exploded as a direct result.

Sorry - I just can't agree.

If I walk into a thread I've not frequented and find it's not what I expected, I'd just walk away.  I wouldn't whinge or carry on, let alone start reporting.

IMO, your hypothesis is a reach at best and not at all consistent with my observations about how people respond in a forum.

[sokoloff]

While I would hope that all people would behave as you would upon finding a thread to be not to their liking, I’ve not experienced that walk away response be universal, and in fact far from universal.

[m k]

My guess is that you can't observe responses of Social Justice Warriors of today, it's just a thumb down.

What I didn't expect is how thin the maintenance team is.
Here's practically no moderation in sense of actual moderation, only cleaning.

Actual moderation possibility would need several new moderators.
Usually this is not needed in places like this, where social structure is at best secondary.
Cat thread is working because it is also secondary, my prediction, I've not been there, is that actual social part there is also minimal.

If TEA is getting its life back this type of situation will happen again, it may take years but it will happen.
Before that somebody should figure out why gnif had so few tools in use, possibilities were much more.

Since TEA is special and its participants may have special ideas it should have its own section.
It can also have its own spin off threads that can emerge elsewhere, like general, repair and main TE sections, if needed.

Somebody wondered why TEA repair is not in repair sections.
For that bd said once that there's no sense to have a thread to say I changed a diode.
And if med is restoring old Tek there's nothing unusual that something needs to be repaired.
TEA is different.

E,
typo, spell checker failed.

E2,
I did expect to lose the 3rd square before 2^10.

[EEVblog]

True, it was perhaps the incorrect statement by me, but putting it as a sticky, coupled with you giving it plugs in your video blog does tend to suggest to others that it is the place to be for all things test equipment, which clearly it isn't. I doubt that anybody can deny that it has lead to a large increase in the number of "new" visitors to the TEA thread (note I didn't say newbies), and that many were disappointed by their findings and this lead to a greater uplift in the level of complaints because these "new" complaints were added onto the old existing complaints and it was that new level which triggered the admin team to take a look and miss handle to the situation, and it exploded as a direct result.

If you want it removed it as a sticky just say so! Get other people to agree with you and I'll do it, it makes absolutely no difference to me.
It's been a sticky for many years without issue. It's not like I plugged it in a video and suddenly there is a huge influx of people overnight. Last time I mentioned it was a long time ago, so long ago I don't even remember. And when I do mention it, it essentially as an example of the (extreme) passion people have for test equipment. I recommend that people post in the Test Equipment section, not in the TEA thread.
I've offered many ways to try and solve the "problem" here but none of the impacted members are saying they want any of it, or even making other suggestions. So 

[EEVblog]

Since TEA is special and its participants may have special ideas it should have its own section.
It can also have its own spin off threads that can emerge elsewhere, like general, repair and main TE sections, if needed.

I offered to move it to it's own section with it's own moderator, but nobody involved has expressed interest in that.
[/quote]

There was just talk on the other TEA forum how wonderful it is having different threads instead of one big long thread.
Why on earth didn't someone just ask me to create a forum section for them where they could have done exactly that? 

[AVGresponding]

It's been a sticky for many years without issue. It's not like I plugged it in a video and suddenly there is a huge influx of people overnight. Last time I mentioned it was a long time ago, so long ago I don't even remember. And when I do mention it, it essentially as an example of the (extreme) passion people have for test equipment. I recommend that people post in the Test Equipment section, not in the TEA thread.
I've offered many ways to try and solve the "problem" here but none of the impacted members are saying they want any of it, or even making other suggestions. So 

Actually Dave you stickied it on the 29th of July last year, so just over one year ago.

Though I'll admit, sometimes it feels longer...

[Brumby]

Why do people think TEA is special?

It's different, perhaps even unique in a way, but I don't see how that's supposed to indicate it should be subject to discrimination.

It seems people are trying to add labels in order to quantify various reasons as to how it can be "tamed" - but all these are just as productive as bureaucratic "hand-waving" trying to dress something up in clothing that warrants some sort of drastic action.

Utterly pointless - unless the point is to try and categorise something so people can sleep at night.


All that is required is for the microscopes to get packed away and the people involved to realise that everybody - including themselves - have a part to play in keeping thing civil.  I don't think anyone wants to see a repeat of this.

IMHO

[Brumby]

Correct, there is hardly any moderation here. We rely on essentially "community moderation" by people leading by example and trying to rember the basic rules.

Yeah, that.

[Per Hansson]

Since TEA is special and its participants may have special ideas it should have its own section.
It can also have its own spin off threads that can emerge elsewhere, like general, repair and main TE sections, if needed.

I offered to move it to it's own section with it's own moderator, but nobody involved has expressed interest in that.

There was just talk on the other TEA forum how wonderful it is having different threads instead of one big long thread.
Why on earth didn't someone just ask me to create a forum section for them where they could have done exactly that? 

I'm not in any way a large participator of the TEA thread but I do pop in every now and then.
And I just want to say that I would wholeheartedly support having a separate "TEA" forum section with bitseeker as one of its mods if he would accept such.
As it is for me I probably wont follow to a new forum, there are only so many hours in a day and I really like it here

I can only regret his departure. He did an amazing job cataloguing the points of interest along the thread. And yes, he welcomed me when I starting posting there a few years ago.

I'm not gone. I do need a break, though. Recent events and their effect on sleep does wear on a person both mentally and physically.

Completely understandable!