Discussing the usage of the TEA thread

[pcprogrammer]

There is clearly a small group of members who thought of themselves as a min-community, and I'm happy to accomodate them in a seperate section just like Cooking.
Obviously I can't read all sections of the forum, but if there are any other mini-communities like this on the forum please let me know.

It might have solved the problem if that was done, but then still the general rules would still apply, and at some point someone would have taken offense about something, and it might still have blown up. It happens within regular families too. Why should this forum be any different. Fortunately most of the members here are level headed, but we are all humans, with human traits, and get into "fights" once in a while. It is how we deal with it afterwards that counts.

Here it has been dealt with by leaving to form a new forum. I wish them well, but won't be joining them. TEA in itself is not my thing. Electronics related programming is. Plenty enough of that here on this forum. With enough of a side dish in "social studies" to keep it interesting.

[Halcyon]

It's just that a handful of people (9 according to the poll) are fed up enough with the moderation of the TEA thread to leave the forum or think about leaving the forum over it.

The Moderators will always get the blame - but that is because they are the public face of the rest of the membership when that membership says "enough". .... and that's not even taking into account the attitude of those who's self-righteousness and "entitlement" ignored the historical precepts and requests to ease back.

I'll just add that in 99% of cases, the moderators here don't respond by removing posts or otherwise, unless someone else reports it first. I don't know about Simon and Geoff, but I don't even look in most of the topics, I stick to the ones that interest me. We don't go looking for things to moderate. And even then, when posts get reported, a significant number of them are ignored. Not because they were false reports, but we typically let people say what they want, even if it's rude or a little insulting.

If the way I moderate seems wrong to you, please, tell me and I'll take your points on-board. But the vast majority of people say "thank you", even via PM from time to time.

[Halcyon]

I've only ever seen you move mountains to try and accommodate people on here.

I literally created a cooking section because a few people wanted it.

Sorry, you can blame that one on me.

[AVGresponding]

Good grief, this thread is moving as fast as the pre-Moderated TEA thread...   

I would like to point out something here as some are not voting (as stated on the new TEA forum) with the rationale that the moderators can see who voted.

1) Obviously the database needs to record who voted to prevent double votes and to allow you to retract your vote.
2) SMF does not provide a way for the moderators to see who voted, period. In fact, even the SMF admin can not even access this information.
3) While I as the server admin (not SMF admin) could go into the database and figure out how to pull this data, I couldn't be less interested in doing so, I have better things to spend my time on.
4) Dave can request this information which is within his rights as the server owner, however in the 8 years I have been here, to date, Dave has never made such a request.

Correct, I cannot see who voted. There is no mechanism inside SMF for me to see this, and I have never made a request to attempt to do this, ever.
And obviously I'm too dumb with computers to go into the SQL database and search for and figure out how the data is mapped and try to decode it etc. Probably needs a siginifcant amount of work with scripts or something.
In short, your poll data is very anonymous.

In some ways I'd prefer it to be an open poll, so we could see where everyone stands. After all it's not a vote for President of (insert fake democracy of choice), where voting for the wrong option could get you imprisoned or worse. FWIW my vote went to "Too much, back off a bit", as being the closest to my feelings on the matter; though I agree the off-topic was getting out of hand, I think it could have been handled more diplomatically. If my account gets deleted and I end up imprisoned or worse, I may have to reassess my opinion...   



I agree with the opinion that making the thread a sticky was a mistake, though how much of the current problematic situation is due to that would be pure speculation. I would agree that seeing a topic at the top of the sticky list might lend it an official status it (in this case) definitely did not warrant. By and large it moved fast enough to more or less stick itself to the top of the unstickied posts anyway.

I disagree that all the people that decided to leave are "full of shit". I think there have been some overreactions (on both sides), which some people seem to feel unable to step back from, for reasons of embarrassment or pride or whatever, I don't know, I'm not inside their heads.

The idea that the backups being made of the TEA thread is part of a plan to leave EEVBlog forum and burn down the house afterwards is as ridiculous as the idea that the Modpocalypse^© event is part of some plan of Dave's to "improve the metrics". If Dave were about that, I'd expect the various threads discussing the appalling state of Keysight customer relations and the rubbish input protection and range switches of their DMMs would also be removed/censored; after all, Keysight are one of the headline advertisers here.



I remain hopeful that there can be a reasonable outcome to all this.

[bsfeechannel]

I also had a bit of a feeling that others where not that welcome in the TEA thread, but that could be just me.

That is not true. Whenever (mostly) someone new showed up and introduced himself he got a nice welcome there.
I'd never the impression, that somebody wouldn't be welcome to TEA.

Yeah. But don't you find it strange that a forum member gets welcomed to whatever thread? As long as you follow the forum rules that should be taken for granted, shouldn't it?

[Ed.Kloonk]

I also had a bit of a feeling that others where not that welcome in the TEA thread, but that could be just me.

That is not true. Whenever (mostly) someone new showed up and introduced himself he got a nice welcome there.
I'd never the impression, that somebody wouldn't be welcome to TEA.

Yeah. But don't you find it strange that a forum member gets welcomed to whatever thread? As long as you follow the forum rules that should be taken for granted, shouldn't it?

I'll often respond to a first poster if the OP isn't an abomination. More often than not, the topic is above my pay grade so I just bump the thread. Who knows. I might even learn something.

[pcprogrammer]

Good grief, this thread is moving as fast as the pre-Moderated TEA thread...   

But it is on topic

In some ways I'd prefer it to be an open poll, so we could see where everyone stands. After all it's not a vote for President of (insert fake democracy of choice), where voting for the wrong option could get you imprisoned or worse. FWIW my vote went to "Too much, back off a bit", as being the closest to my feelings on the matter; though I agree the off-topic was getting out of hand, I think it could have been handled more diplomatically.

It would certainly be interesting to see who voted what in this case from some perspective, but it might also be oil on the fire. From my perspective I fail to see the lack of diplomacy of the moderators, because it has been diplomatic in the first place. How long do you feel it should have continued with just a diplomatic "hey guys stay on topic please" before real action had to be taken. The deleting post was frowned upon. The "replacing my text with removed due to" was frowned upon. There is no right way when people feel they don't need to change their attitude.

I disagree that all the people that decided to leave are "full of shit". I think there have been some overreactions (on both sides), which some people seem to feel unable to step back from, for reasons of embarrassment or pride or whatever, I don't know, I'm not inside their heads.

I don't recall the emphasis on those of who left being "full of shit", but more on that there was to much off topic being posted. It might have been called crap in the reference to the said posts, but not the posters being full of it. But that is my opinion.

I remain hopeful that there can be a reasonable outcome to all this.

I guess that is what most of us hope.

[Ed.Kloonk]

I disagree that all the people that decided to leave are "full of shit". I think there have been some overreactions (on both sides), which some people seem to feel unable to step back from, for reasons of embarrassment or pride or whatever, I don't know, I'm not inside their heads.

I don't recall the emphasis on those of who left being "full of shit", but more on that there was to much off topic being posted. It might have been called crap in the reference to the said posts, but not the posters being full of it. But that is my opinion.

Me. Prolly could have chosen better words.

[magic]

You effectively have the same rules here as the EEVBlog, so what's the difference? I honestly don't get it.

I think the difference is not in what the rules are, but in who does not enforce them

I'm sure they are equally guilty as you are, or soon will become.

In fact, I regret recently making suggestions how to tighten the rules about political content in signatures.
I'm starting to feel like I should start mass reporting violations of forum rule number 4 instead.
I wonder what the mods would do with that?

Here it has been dealt with by leaving to form a new forum. I wish them well, but won't be joining them. TEA in itself is not my thing. Electronics related programming is. Plenty enough of that here on this forum. With enough of a side dish in "social studies" to keep it interesting.

So why are you (and a few others) posting repeatedly in this stupid thread and bumping it to the top of the chitchat subforum?

You want to know who doesn't care about TEA and doesn't want to hear about it? I do.

I don't think I have ever read more than a few pages of TEA in total. It obviously started as a joke, it obviously morphed into a silly sandbox where a bunch of guys talked about their boat anchors, pissed off wives and random hobbies I couldn't care less about. I was surprised when it was still going at 10 pages and then at 1000, but what the heck, nobody forced me to click on that thread.

I managed to stay out of this meta thread too for a week while it grew to 10 pages and I will surely regret making this post when it grows to 1000 pages and keeps popping up on my "unread" list.


I don't always agree with tggzzz, but I can't help but agree with tggzzz. It looks like a bunch of guys had a little playground. Maybe they didn't exactly play by the rules of the general forum, but they didn't care and neither did the rest care because they weren't spilling over to other threads and polluting them with boring shit that no one wants to read. Apparently, they were having fun. Then it looks like some kids got envious because perhaps they weren't having as much fun themselves. Complaints have been filed, reports have been made, the rest is history.

It looks like several perpetrators are still here, haunting this forum section now, congratulating themselves on a job well done, getting rid of people who simply refused to make their content more digestible to outsiders and now just took it elsewhere instead

Many of whom I don't care about and don't even recognize, but also several members well known to have posted productively and on topic in many other threads

Yeah, job well done. And I agree, the comparison to SJWs that somebody made is very apt. It's the same envy-driven, destructive behavior and the same tactics of behind-the-scenes reporting of incidents taken out of context to clueless authorities to perform the wetwork.

It might have solved the problem if that was done, but then still the general rules would still apply, and at some point someone would have taken offense about something, and it might still have blown up.

It wouldn't if people not interested in their content wouldn't go there for the sole purpose of finding something to be offended about.
I have never been to the cooking subforum. For all I known, they may be openly discussing preparation of amphetamine in there. I don't care.
If Dave doesn't want amphetamine on his domain because it's illegal or whatever, he can go there himself and shut it down at his own discretion.

[PlainName]

though I agree the off-topic was getting out of hand, I think it could have been handled more diplomatically

AFAIK gnif was the model of diplomacy. Perhaps that was the problem: with cross children and cats, if you don't stamp your authority they will just push the boundaries more and more.

Also consider that it is a live system with feedback, so there will be some hysteresis (maybe SMF could implement a moderation PID controller).

[pcprogrammer]

Here it has been dealt with by leaving to form a new forum. I wish them well, but won't be joining them. TEA in itself is not my thing. Electronics related programming is. Plenty enough of that here on this forum. With enough of a side dish in "social studies" to keep it interesting.

So why are you (and a few others) posting repeatedly in this stupid thread and bumping it to the top of the chitchat subforum?

Here it has been dealt with by leaving to form a new forum. I wish them well, but won't be joining them. TEA in itself is not my thing. Electronics related programming is. Plenty enough of that here on this forum. With enough of a side dish in "social studies" to keep it interesting.

Because of the thing that does interest me. See the bold emphasis above.

And as mentioned by many including Dave in other threads you don't have to read it, and can add it to your ignore list if you like.

Furthermore by writing what you did, you try to silence me, and that is what the whole turmoil in the TEA was also about. But here it is on topic of what is being discussed, and within the general rules of the forum.

[BU508A]

I also had a bit of a feeling that others where not that welcome in the TEA thread, but that could be just me.

That is not true. Whenever (mostly) someone new showed up and introduced himself he got a nice welcome there.
I'd never the impression, that somebody wouldn't be welcome to TEA.

Yeah. But don't you find it strange that a forum member gets welcomed to whatever thread? As long as you follow the forum rules that should be taken for granted, shouldn't it?

Why? I considered a nice "Welcome" as being polite from the regulars to potentially new TEA members.

[pcprogrammer]

Yeah. But don't you find it strange that a forum member gets welcomed to whatever thread? As long as you follow the forum rules that should be taken for granted, shouldn't it?

Why? I considered a nice "Welcome" as being polite from the regulars to potentially new TEA members.

There is a difference between a "nice welcome" and feeling welcome. It is about interaction. Only on some off topic and basically forbidden I had some, but only with a few that were interested in the same off topic, and to some extend that is understandable, but the core group was not so open. But again, that is my personal experience and might well be because of me being me.

[BU508A]

There is a difference between a "nice welcome" and feeling welcome. It is about interaction.

It is an invitiation to participate. And it is the decision of every individuum if and how much someone will participate.
We don't know what your particular feelings are, we cannot look into your head. The written communication here
is lacking of at least 70% of the communication between people when talking to each other in real life.

Only on some off topic and basically forbidden I had some, but only with a few that were interested in the same off topic, and to some extend that is understandable, but the core group was not so open.

How do you know?
Is that what you infer from the possible fact that they did not respond to your comments?

But again, that is my personal experience and might well be because of me being me.

I think, this is likely.

[magic]

Because of the thing that does interest me. See the bold emphasis above.

Ah, "social studies". I would think this implies reading such thread rather than writing to it with your commentaries and rationalizations of decisions made by one side after the other side has already departed, but maybe I'm wrong.

Furthermore by writing what you did, you try to silence me, and that is what the whole turmoil in the TEA was also about.

I am not deleting your posts or filing reports on you and I am under no illusion that you would actually go silent.
Maybe I'm just doing social studies of my own

[pcprogrammer]

The written communication here is lacking of at least 70% of the communication between people when talking to each other in real life.

That is a very good point. There is indeed a lot of non verbal communication when talking in real life.

How do you know?
Is that what you infer from the possible fact that they did not respond to your comments?

Indeed.

But again, that is my personal experience and might well be because of me being me.

I think, this is likely.

Hard to hear but at least honest.

[EEVblog]

Ok, I have to apologise.
Sorry, gnif did indeed inform me what was happening 5 days ago (Aug 24th), but because the email was within another email thread on an entirely different forum topic discussion, I didn't see it because it shows up in my inbox as an entirely different subject header so I put it aside until later.
So having this brew for 4 days without me knowing it was happening is entirely on me. Sorry.

[pcprogrammer]

Ah, "social studies". I would think this implies reading such thread rather than writing to it with your commentaries and rationalizations of decisions made by one side after the other side has already departed, but maybe I'm wrong.

People studying things also write about it.

The "other side" is very welcome to come and join the discussion. Here is the place to do it.

I am not deleting your posts or filing reports on you and I am under no illusion that you would actually go silent.
Maybe I'm just doing social studies of my own

If I was out of order I would go silent. Did in the TEA thread after the initial warnings. But as written before, here it is all on topic.

And that is your prerogative. You can study what ever you like.

Edit fixed provocative into prerogative, because it was the wrong word.

[BU508A]

How do you know?
Is that what you infer from the possible fact that they did not respond to your comments?

Indeed.

I for myself would be very cautious with such conclusions. For the same reason we cannot look into your head you can't to this as well. I hope. 
I suspect, that you won't answer as well to every single posting which might be related (directly or indirectly) to you.

But again, that is my personal experience and might well be because of me being me.

I think, this is likely.

Hard to hear but at least honest.

I'm trying to made myself as clear as possible to avoid misunderstandings.
For the same reason I'm trying to avoid projecting my feelings to others.

[pcprogrammer]

I for myself would be very cautious with such conclusions. For the same reason we cannot look into your head you can't to this as well. I hope. 

Don't worry, I can't. Like to believe I have some good insights, but will let others be the judge on that.

I suspect, that you won't answer as well to every single posting which might be related (directly or indirectly) to you.

I try to answer as much as I can, and also hope it has some value for others.

I'm trying to made myself as clear as possible to avoid misunderstandings.
For the same reason I'm trying to avoid projecting my feelings to others.

Appreciated and a good quality I guess.

[Peter_O]

Let's just leave TEA as it is now for some weeks and see how it goes.

I like it as kind of an overall TE thread to get inspired and read about equipment I do not even know or would not actively go and seek elsewhere.

- I'll try to check the width of my pictures before posting as I have done in the past.
- I'll try to sensibly snip quotes, as the link to the full post is always on top anyway.
- I'll try to advertise my new TE only, but to start seperate threads for details.

- I'll be glad, if the thread is gaining some more live again, which I'm sure it will.
A grain of OT should be allowed for that. Maybe we manage to get a wee better in self moderation in the future.

[AVGresponding]

though I agree the off-topic was getting out of hand, I think it could have been handled more diplomatically

AFAIK gnif was the model of diplomacy. Perhaps that was the problem: with cross children and cats, if you don't stamp your authority they will just push the boundaries more and more.

Also consider that it is a live system with feedback, so there will be some hysteresis (maybe SMF could implement a moderation PID controller).

The wholesale deletion of posts he considered to be off-topic included some that were not really, and some that were well-wishing people that had mentioned certain rl problems. He himself later admitted the deletion of well-wishing messages was a mistake.

I want to make it clear here that I am not having a go at gnif; he's human, he makes mistakes, as we all do. I was disappointed he chose to step down as a Mod, I believe we should try to learn by our mistakes and improve our performance and interactions going forward, but I completely understand why someone would want to avoid in the future the kind of over-the-top vitriol he was subject to both here and elsewhere.

[Atomillo]

I also had a bit of a feeling that others where not that welcome in the TEA thread, but that could be just me.

That is not true. Whenever (mostly) someone new showed up and introduced himself he got a nice welcome there.
I'd never the impression, that somebody wouldn't be welcome to TEA.

Some examples:

Code: [Select]

https://www.google.com/search?q=mnemnth+aardvak+neverending+taco+site%3Awww.eevblog.com%2Fforum%2Ftestgear%2Ftest-equipment-anonymous-%28tea%29-group-therapy-thread

I've only posted sporadically because both my workshop and my knowledge is very limited but everytime I've been warmly welcomed, treated with all respect and been helped extensively.

 It was an amazing community that very easily accepted and helped new members like myself.

[Neper]

...but I completely understand why someone would want to avoid in the future the kind of over-the-top vitriol he was subject to both here and elsewhere.[/color][/size][/b]

'Kind of' over-the-top vitriol for definitely over-the-top moderating. That said, is there anything that wasn't totally over-the-top in a mess which led to this SNAFU of epic proportions, while, as we've just learnt from Dave, Murphy was having a field day?

[Ed.Kloonk]

A plot twist nobody saw coming. I can understand how it happens tho.