Discussing the usage of the TEA thread

[factory]

In hindsight this thread should not be locked yet, discussion needs to be open for suggestions on how weto proceed with the TEA thread here.

Unlocked

Options which I see:
1. Held in place, try to keep on topic - it will lose a lot of the current spirit.
2. Move to general technical chat, and leave a link in the sticky place - this way I see a better chance to keep the original/current spirit.
3.-x...
Once the choices are clear, maybe put up to vote?

I personally like #2

Just a friendly warning from a fellow forum moderator: be careful about moving that thread without first having a full database backup.
It has issues already due to its size: trying to use the "print preview" causes a HTTP 500 error.
It would be a tremendous shame to loose the thread due to some database problem if it was attempted to be moved and that failed!

[...] Moving a thread otoh is as simple as changing the thread's parent ID in the first post in the database, it's a reference to the parent, it doesn't actually move anything.

Great to hear !

Let's do that then, let's move TEA to a different part of the forum where the OT stuff would not be frown upon, and in 5 minutes TEA can resume business as usual with the peace of mind that if anyone ever complains about OT stuff, he can be legitimately told to get lost.

Or just edit the title of the thread to " TEA chat room, OT inside ", and that's all..... or do both, I don't know.... I don't see the need for all the drama that's been going on last night. Only problem I see here, is some people complaining about OT stuff. So let's just make it so that OT now becomes "legal" and problem gone.

Those who want an actual, dry, technical, dull boring thread are of course most welcome to start a new thread of their own.... how is that difficult ? I am sure there are tens of threads being created every day on this forum (well I guess... ), so it's not like this would be a major event...


This takes only 5 minutes to solve, click, click click and click click click click... something like that, I don't know I am no forum admin... but surely renaming and moving a thread is basic stuff for any forum software, I would think !

So let's do that and resume our TEA activities.... shall we ? Please ?   

Thanks in advance !   

Wouldn't moving the thread break all the links to that thread? Not that moving it would help much, as many regulars seem to have deserted the TEA thread already. Personally I have zero interest in joining any groups on .io.

David

[pcprogrammer]

... Think therapy. ...

....
The clue is in the title "Test Equipment Anonymous", it is more of a self-help group for those that are addicted to collecting old test equipment.
....

Preaching to the choir here. See my posts after the first warnings about off topic in the TEA. For me it has always been clear that it is therapeutic.

But I also understand the point of view of others who argue that the site is about electronics engineering. Hence the name EEVblog. So we end up with a difficult situation that got out of hand.

As I have not read much of the thread lately I can't judge on what happened, but I can certainly understand a lot of it from both sides of the fence. And I think the regulars should be honest and acknowledge that the off topic started to get out of control. Anger about how it has been dealt with I can also understand but some of the grief towards gnif in this case was uncalled for. But that is my opinion.

Time will tell how things evolve.

[capt bullshot]

Wouldn't moving the thread break all the links to that thread? Not that moving it would help much, as many regulars seem to have deserted the TEA thread already. Personally I have zero interest in joining any groups on .io.

David

Fully agree in not wanting to join alternative TEA groups at where ever. And I don't mind which part of the forum the TEA thread is assigned to, just because I'm used to look at the latest new posts from all topics, completely ingnoring the forum structure. To me, a new place outside this forum won't restore the original TEA feeling. ATM the TEA thread looks a bit boring, I'll wait and have some tea meanwhile.

[Saskia]

Looking at the TEA thread now it has gone completely off topic as it has absolutely nothing more to do with TE Addiction. Which scope to get would have been question which would have to go to "how to select your scope" and that belongs into GE test equipment stuff.

But I am sure the soulless minions of orthodoxy are quite happy with what they have accomplished. (and I don't mean gnif, he obviously meant well which completely derailed).
I am so reminded of all this political correctness crap. some people make a whole lot of fuss about something not being politically correct, someone reacts and pisses off all those people that actually did not mind and sacrificed time and put in heartache. And now vote with their feet.

Mission accompli, the wokes have it. you have a very lively discussion on that thread. let us wait for the tumbleweed.

[pcprogrammer]

I disagree Spec ! As I said earlier, once the thread is moved to wherever the OT stuff is allowed... then whoever complains about OT stuff can just go get lost ! 
They can report whatever OT stuff they like to the moderators, they won't have a "case"... rather the moderators would ban them in retaliation for spamming them with unfounded reports...

Have a bit of faith spec !   

If anything, it's well worth giving it a try ! Nothing to lose, and everything to win ! 

Moving the thread to another location is not needed when the rules for the thread itself are changed and clearly stated as such.

How to do that is another issue, and up to Dave I guess.

But it won't solve the problem of the mixed feelings between the frequent posters. Don't forget that according to gnif 50% of the complaints came from frequent posters in the thread. And that is something the TEA community (meaning the frequent posters in that thread) has to solve amongst themselves, because other wise the off topic stuff will still create problems, and then not with messages to the moderators, but with additional off topic posts to keep the others in check.

[tautech]

Looking at the TEA thread now it has gone completely off topic as it has absolutely nothing more to do with TE Addiction. Which scope to get would have been question which would have to go to "how to select your scope" and that belongs into GE test equipment stuff.

But I am sure the soulless minions of orthodoxy are quite happy with what they have accomplished. (and I don't mean gnif, he obviously meant well which completely derailed).
I am so reminded of all this political correctness crap. some people make a whole lot of fuss about something not being politically correct, someone reacts and pisses off all those people that actually did not mind and sacrificed time and put in heartache. And now vote with their feet.

Mission accompli, the wokes have it. you have a very lively discussion on that thread. let us wait for the tumbleweed.

Unfortunately it may not all be over just yet going by some of the discussion on other platforms.
There are sufficiently pissed members which if they wanted to could do serious damage to the content of the TEA thread.
That would be very unfortunate but it is reality that admin has pushed too hard.

[tggzzz]

In hindsight this thread should not be locked yet, discussion needs to be open for suggestions on how weto proceed with the TEA thread here.

Unlocked

Options which I see:
1. Held in place, try to keep on topic - it will lose a lot of the current spirit.
2. Move to general technical chat, and leave a link in the sticky place - this way I see a better chance to keep the original/current spirit.
3.-x...
Once the choices are clear, maybe put up to vote?

I personally like #2

The problem here is, that the same people who are currently dragging you into the fray, will still be there, where ever you put the thread as for some of those folk just seem to enjoy being killjoys, you come across them in every walk of life and their day is not complete until they have reported someone or something, they are the equivalent of a nosy parker neighbour, with not enough to occupy their minds, so they hide behind net curtains and become the neighbourhood whistleblower, the neighbour from hell, who is very often despised by the other neighbours. Those people need to remember that when they point a finger at someone, they have 3 of their own fingers pointing back at them.

I disagree Spec ! As I said earlier, once the thread is moved to wherever the OT stuff is allowed... then whoever complains about OT stuff can just go get lost ! 
They can report whatever OT stuff they like to the moderators, they won't have a "case"... rather the moderators would ban them in retaliation for spamming them with unfounded reports...

Ah. An optimist.

I don't think there is a technical solution to a sociological problem, i.e. the combination of:

• non-contributing lurkers making complaints about what they would like a thread to be
• moderators reacting to whatever is drawn to their attention, due to light touch moderation policy plus very limited personal time

So I don't think merely moving the thread to a different part of the forum will solve this.

As I've indicated before, I have a great deal of sympathy for the mods, who will inevitably make "errors" in someone's eyes

[Squarewave]

I still don't really get it, wouldn't we cut out all of the arguing if we just indulge in test gear in TEA and have a general thread for talking about other aspects of life?

Would that not work and be a good middle ground for all?

[PlainName]

There are sufficiently pissed members which if they wanted to could do serious damage to the content of the TEA thread.
That would be very unfortunate but it is reality that admin has pushed too hard.

Sounds like a quote from The Godfather or similar! I'm sure you didn't mean it like that.

[tautech]

There are sufficiently pissed members which if they wanted to could do serious damage to the content of the TEA thread.
That would be very unfortunate but it is reality that admin has pushed too hard.

Sounds like a quote from The Godfather or similar! I'm sure you didn't mean it like that.

Disturbing isn’t it and of course an unforeseen but possible outcome.

[PlainName]

"Nice thread you've got there. Be a shame if something happened to it."

Clearly, it isn't unforeseen if you've sugg foreseen it. That kind of not-a-threat should have no place in a forum of adults.

[Zenith]

I still don't really get it, wouldn't we cut out all of the arguing if we just indulge in test gear in TEA and have a general thread for talking about other aspects of life?

Would that not work and be a good middle ground for all?

No because it wasn't about test gear. Note the first post in the thread. It was about test gear and the compulsion to acquire it and fix it and house it, and the wider problems that might bring. These discussions could get blown off course. For instance, someone talking about some swapmeet (a valid discussion for TE addicts wanting to find more) and an aside saying they weren't going because the road bristled with speed traps, became a discussion about the morality of speeding and the merits of digital vs analogue instrumentation and so on. Each contributor had a point to make they thought was valid and they couldn't resist making. Rapidly it was clutter.

You started a thread on UK rallies in the Contests and Events section, which has 86 replies currently. It's mainly of interest to a few TEA contributors, but hardly to anyone outside the UK, who'd see it as boring crap. That's strayed off topic a little bit, but soon corrected itself, probably because it has few followers. For instance, no one was likely to pop up and say Peacehaven was Heaven on earth and they wouldn't have it maligned. Four pages of what most followers would see as noise, hived off for a better discussion for those few interested.

[Squarewave]

I still don't really get it, wouldn't we cut out all of the arguing if we just indulge in test gear in TEA and have a general thread for talking about other aspects of life?

Would that not work and be a good middle ground for all?

No because it wasn't about test gear. Note the first post in the thread. It was about test gear and the compulsion to acquire it and fix it and house it, and the wider problems that might bring.

That is about test gear.

These discussions could get blown off course. For instance, someone talking about some swapmeet (a valid discussion for TE addicts wanting to find more) and an aside saying they weren't going because the road bristled with speed traps, became a discussion about the morality of speeding and the merits of digital vs analogue instrumentation and so on. Each contributor had a point to make they thought was valid and they couldn't resist making. Rapidly it was clutter.

Yes, it's situations like that where we get 10 pages of facebook style conversations...

You started a thread on UK rallies in the Contests and Events section, which has 86 replies currently. It's mainly of interest to a few TEA contributors, but hardly to anyone outside the UK, who'd see it as boring crap. That's strayed off topic a little bit, but soon corrected itself, probably because it has few followers. For instance, no one was likely to pop up and say Peacehaven was Heaven on earth and they wouldn't have it maligned. Four pages of what most followers would see as noise, hived off for a better discussion for those few interested.

Yes and quite right, it's for UK rallies. One thread used for everything causes things to get lost.

[Zenith]

I still don't really get it, wouldn't we cut out all of the arguing if we just indulge in test gear in TEA and have a general thread for talking about other aspects of life?

Would that not work and be a good middle ground for all?

No because it wasn't about test gear. Note the first post in the thread. It was about test gear and the compulsion to acquire it and fix it and house it, and the wider problems that might bring.

That is about test gear.

But not just about test gear. It was in it from the off to have wider discussion than strictly test gear.

The remit was widened in the eyes of the mods, that posts have some relevance to electronics. The odd off-topic post as a quip was OK. A slippery slope.

[Neper]

I am so reminded of all this political correctness crap. ... Mission accompli, the wokes have it.

For the life of me I can't see what all the kerfuffle about TEA would have to do with woke or PC or whatever, other than you using every occasion to keep rubbing our noses in your dumb political agenda.

[Squarewave]

I still don't really get it, wouldn't we cut out all of the arguing if we just indulge in test gear in TEA and have a general thread for talking about other aspects of life?

Would that not work and be a good middle ground for all?

No because it wasn't about test gear. Note the first post in the thread. It was about test gear and the compulsion to acquire it and fix it and house it, and the wider problems that might bring.

That is about test gear.

But not just about test gear. It was in it from the off to have wider discussion than strictly test gear.

The remit was widened in the eyes of the mods, that posts have some relevance to electronics. The odd off-topic post as a quip was OK. A slippery slope.

And that's where it went over the top I think, where it wandered off topic into pages and pages of table polishing, then guns, then bee keeping etc......nothing to do with TE and that's where it muddled everything else.

[tggzzz]

I still don't really get it, wouldn't we cut out all of the arguing if we just indulge in test gear in TEA and have a general thread for talking about other aspects of life?

Would that not work and be a good middle ground for all?

No because it wasn't about test gear. Note the first post in the thread. It was about test gear and the compulsion to acquire it and fix it and house it, and the wider problems that might bring.

That is about test gear.

But not just about test gear. It was in it from the off to have wider discussion than strictly test gear.

The remit was widened in the eyes of the mods, that posts have some relevance to electronics. The odd off-topic post as a quip was OK. A slippery slope.

And that's where it went over the top I think, where it wandered off topic into pages and pages of table polishing, then guns, then bee keeping etc......nothing to do with TE and that's where it muddled everything else.

Addictions and syndromes do have that kind of associated behaviour. That's TEAddictioms and GESyndromes, of course.

Thats one of the reasons the thread became so large. Too large for its own good, it seems.

[tggzzz]

"You can check out any time you like,
But you can never leave..."

Well, let's hope that this bit of Hotel California wisdom also applies to the TEA regulars who have now set out on their own... 

It isn't a religious schism, is it?

I am not aware that it is one or the other but not both. I will monitor both and contribute where I feel so inclined.

I will also simply skip over and ignore the bits I find boring. That skill is necessary for everybody to actively develop in order to exist in the modern world.

[tggzzz]

Yes and quite right, it's for UK rallies. One thread used for everything causes things to get lost.

The UK rallies thread was a sensible development.

But it is not necessary that everything be divided and catalogued so that something can be easily found.

[AlfBaz]

I hardly post on this forum at all lately but visit it daily. I posted once in the TEA thread and it comes up all the time in the Show new replies to your posts link

I came to understand that thread as one where a group of like-minded individuals (friends?) who were into electronics and presumably test equipment, hung out and talked shit.

I also gleaned that most of the people in that thread were long standing members of the forum who felt comfortable chatting about other aspects of their lives with each other, not unlike the very enjoyable EEVBLOG IRC chat.

I haven't read this thread in its entirety so this may have already been suggested but if this particular thread is detrimental to the eevblog forum brand, how about making that thread members only, similar to the Supporters Lounge
Surely it would be a good thing to have somewhere where long standing members can have somewhere to converge on any topic whatsoever given that indeed it would be electronics related based on the fact that people on this forum joined because of electronics

Secondly the title of the thread is TEA (Test Equipment Addiction) to which the meaning should be clear to anyone that it's content would be about the addiction and not necessarily about Test Equipment. I'm sure at AA they don't sit around talking about brewing techniques and the full bodied flavour of their favourite wine but rather their lifestyles and life choices which lead them to the addiction

[Brumby]

Throughout its existence, the TEA thread has had numerous excursions like this:

These discussions could get blown off course. For instance, someone talking about some swapmeet (a valid discussion for TE addicts wanting to find more) and an aside saying they weren't going because the road bristled with speed traps, became a discussion about the morality of speeding and the merits of digital vs analogue instrumentation and so on. Each contributor had a point to make they thought was valid and they couldn't resist making.

And I confess, I am guilty of having thrown my 2 cents worth into a couple of them. 

Many such tangents are over in a handful of short posts, so are pretty much just noise. What has been notable is that discussions have moved on by either self-realisation or other members comments, where the transgressor has understood and accepted the truth of it.  I've seen that repeatedly.

The problem came about from a combination of two things:
 1. Excessive rambling on subjects well outside the realm of electronics.
 2. Those responsible being selfish and ignoring requests to be more considerate.

The first of these is what brought the whole "off-topic" issue to prominence.  For example, there were something like 4 pages centred on the subject of buses at one point and I can't tell you how much I wanted that to fade away.  I'm sure many other members would have felt that way.  Once that change in awareness occurred, then ANY off-topic material became instantly unpalatable.

The second is what lit the fuse.

For the most part, members have been able to get to a point where they step down from their soapbox for the greater good.  Yes, they still may have a bee in their bonnet about something, but they have been adult enough to move on.  IMHO, the escalation occurred because there were members who wanted to defend their position (and carry on regardless) rather than look out for the greater good.


I would also like to add that the whole band of discussion that is currently flying around citing chapter and verse on various interpretations is not very well grounded in the relevant facts - again, IMHO.  The TEA thread developed a unique culture through common interests, time, interaction and finding its own way.  Looking back at it all and trying to apply legislative thinking to something that grew organically will generate futile discussions and is just a waste of time.  Fine for people who want to say something - but the fundamental problem there is trying to box up something that is, essentially, nebulous.



Oh - and if you are wanting to start jumping up and down about Moderation then I'll ask you to sit down.

The Mods had nothing to do with the root cause.  They were presented with a situation which they were obligated to deal with.  It's that simple.

We do not know the pressures brought upon them in the beginning - how many reports or other communications were made nor the content of such.  I imagine there may have been everything from quiet requests to angry demands and personal attacks.  But they then need to look past the emotion and work out how best to deal with the situation.

Some of you armchair warriors will have strong opinions on what should have been done - but you certainly will not have all the information and only a number of you will have the skills and, even less, the experience to act with any level of objectivity.  Could the Mods have done things differently?  Possibly.  Could you have done any better?  I doubt it ... and, yes, I know some will take offence at that - but they are the ones I wouldn't want anywhere near the moderator button.

[Brumby]

FWIW I intend to stay here and will continue to frequent and contribute to the TEA thread.

[Brumby]

So I don't think merely moving the thread to a different part of the forum will solve this.

I agree.

The TEA thread is defined by its content, not its location.

[Ed.Kloonk]

The Mods had nothing to do with the root cause.  They were presented with a situation which they were obligated to deal with.  It's that simple.

Having been around the SMF-style forums even before social media borked it all proper, I've found the need to have a social area is such a contentious issue. The smaller Linux distro 'support' sites have all tried and tried to walk the line in providing a social area. Keeping a herd of cranky Linux dudes all chill wasn't for the faint of heart.

What I can say is, as awful as it seems, it is good that there is at least a few different passionate viewpoints, none of those printed above being surprising to me BTW.

[Brumby]

What I can say is, a awful as it seems, it is good that there is at least a few different passionate viewpoints, none of those printed above being surprising to me BTW.

That doesn't sound awful at all ... at least to me.

** I have always held that everyone's opinion is worth listening to - including those who come from an ideologically foreign perspective to one's own.  They may still have a point or two that are worth considering.  Even if they don't, having differing - or even extreme - viewpoints helps define reference points to allow us to see how our opinions fit into the bigger picture. 

(** I expressed this in an article which was published in EA some time last millennium.)