Discussing the usage of the TEA thread

[gnif]

This thread is to get the conversation out of the TEA thread on how it's being moderated and what is/isn't acceptable for those that wish to discuss this.

For those just joining:

The TEA thread has been running for a long time and has thousands of very informative and interesting posts of Test Equipment, photos, tear-downs, however the thread has over time evolved into a general discussion thread. Unfortunately it's at the point where a lot of posts are no longer even electronics related which is causing annoyance for our members and causing a high number of off-topic moderation reports due to this.

We (the staff here) have agreed that the TEA thread does not need to be strictly test equipment, but it does however need to stay within the forum rules and discussion contained needs to remain electronics related. Many warnings have been given trying to direct the forum back to where it should be, a general electronics related chat/discussion group. However some disagree with limiting the thread to keeping the topics "electronics related" and today we needed to step in and draw a line as people continue to ignore the rules layed down citing prior behaviour in the thread as being "tolerant" to the breakage of forum rules.

While we as moderators do need to allow for some leeway in what is posted, such as "haha" comments in reply to someone else, or some anecdotal reference, simply allowing the thread to continue as an "off-topic discussion thread" is not an option.

[gnif]

Addendum: While the body of a TEA post needs to be electronics related, it doesn't mean it can not contain non-electronic things such as your rationale for what you did/made/fixed/bought, etc. provided it falls within the rules that govern the forums as a whole.

[pcprogrammer]

Just out of interest to get some insight, without naming names, the complaints being made are these coming mainly from active participants or mostly from watchers?

[gnif]

Just out of interest to get some insight, without naming names, the complaints being made are these coming mainly from active participants or mostly from watchers?

It's about a 50/50 mix.

[Squarewave]

I imagine it's a mix between those who want to contribute but can't follow the thread because of 10 pages of someone talking about their piles and blood pressure tablets and the others contribute and then their TE gets lost in 10 pages of people talking about their dining table polishing and pace maker battery being replaced by the doctor in a few days.

[gnif]

I imagine it's a mix between those who want to contribute but can't follow the thread because of 10 pages of someone talking about their piles and blood pressure tablets and the others contribute and then their TE gets lost in 10 pages of people talking about their dining table polishing and pace maker battery being replaced by the doctor in a few days.

That's pretty much it. Since we initially stepped in we have been getting a lot of messages from members thanking us for trying to clean up the thread so that it can be properly used again.

[alm]

I've not filed any complaint, but despite having an interest in test equipment, I've started completely ignoring this thread because signal (test equipment related) to noise ratio has just gotten so low that it's not worth my time reading. Even if I find a post about an instrument through the search, it's usually limited to a few pictures and two responses about that particular instrument and then back to the non-test equipment topic of the day.

[pcprogrammer]

Well then the ones that don't complain know they have to be more on topic, because it is them the others are complaining about.

I myself only briefly went into the thread, because of some "off topic" interest and went out again because of the warnings to stay on topic. As I'm not a real collector of vintage or modern test equipment, the on topic stuff does not interest me that much.

And Squarewave does have a point that following a specific topic about some cool piece of equipment is not simple.

But in light of the title of the thread it should not be about the fixing of the equipment, but about the getting it and the possible problems surrounding it. Think therapy. The more technical stuff, in my opinion, should go in separate dedicated threads, so that any one interested in that specific piece of equipment can easily follow what is being done.

Take from it what you will, just my 2 cents worth

[gnif]

But in light of the title of the thread it should not be about the fixing of the equipment, but about the getting it and the possible problems surrounding it. Think therapy. The more technical stuff, in my opinion, should go in separate dedicated threads, so that any one interested in that specific piece of equipment can easily follow what is being done.

I am in complete agreeance here, searching that thread for some specific information is near impossible. Discussing what you have, showing it off, pics, tear-downs, etc... discussing your addiction (ocd?) about this category of hardware and finding therapy from it is how I have always seen this thread. Not some topic to discuss the current weather or road laws, or your latest woodworking project.

[Brumby]

I agree that searching through the mud looking for some gold is quite painful, but I will disagree about the subject of repair - in part, at least.

Often, the repairability of an item is a key factor in the process of acquisition - as is the procurement of a carcass for donor parts.  Such discussions often add value to a reader's knowledge.  I know I've found it so.

A handful of posts describing the issues and resolution doesn't worry me, but should a repair become a long and detailed journey, then it would do well to find life in its own thread - as has happened on a number of occasions.

[mansaxel]

I find it exceptionally hard to accept that a thread that has been at a reasonably consistent signal to noise ratio over something like 130000 messages suddenly becomes a moderator focus with regards to topic-ness, and when asked why, the moderators respond with "we never tolerated this". I respectfully beg to differ.  It is not the thread that has changed, it is the moderator tolerance.  Denying that will not stand the test of time.

I further will argue that the mental ordeal of obsessingly collecting test equipment will have to be dealt with in a holistical manner, for it affects the obsessed and their family to a non-trivial extent. That is what we are doing, and that, IMNSHO, needs some considerable  freedom of navigation.  But that is my opinion, based on having read at least 50% of the thread. It is not a provable fact like what I stated above.

I am afraid that the thread is considerable danger of dying out if the moderation will be at this elevated level of attention forthwith. I don't know and probably should not speculate about the general attitude to the thread in the moderator community.   But I like (from a heavily biased POV) to think that the thread, as such, has sparked interest in learning and applying electronics and more so a scientific mind set to life, for some of its fringe participants. It certainly has had this effect on me, and I am very deeply in debt to it and its members. Consequently, I'm also very worried about its future in the light of recent actions.  There's an actual lump in my stomach as I type (and retype, several times) this. 

It is not my forum, and the moderators headed by Dave have dictatorial powers. We all acknowledge this, for it is the actual state of things.  But a forum is nothing without its members and their contributions.  I find it hard to believe that the general well-being of the entire EEVblog forum world would benefit from the alienation of some of its most frequent and sometimes (when I'm not counted) competent posters by removing our playground corner.

</soapbox>

[Neper]

I couldn't have said it better and I think they're ripping the soul out of TEA.

Pity, really. It used to be fun. 

[wilfred]

We (the staff here) have agreed that the TEA thread does not need to be strictly test equipment, but it does however need to stay within the forum rules and discussion contained needs to remain electronics related. Many warnings have been given trying to direct the forum back to where it should be, a general electronics related chat/discussion group. However some disagree with limiting the thread to keeping the topics "electronics related" and today we needed to step in and draw a line as people continue to ignore the rules layed down citing prior behaviour in the thread as being "tolerant" to the breakage of forum rules.

While we as moderators do need to allow for some leeway in what is posted, such as "haha" comments in reply to someone else, or some anecdotal reference, simply allowing the thread to continue as an "off-topic discussion thread" is not an option.

I always thought the TEA thread was a valuable service to the general forum. It basically sandboxed much of the discussion and off-topic stuff from leaking out too much into the broader forum topics. And since there is a huge amount of discussion there that was "tolerated" it has effectively become a de-facto subset of rules for that particular thread. I say let it continue as it has and let the people who frequent it enjoy themselves. If you do a histogram of post frequency in it you will find the vast majority of posts are made by a very limited number.

But even if clamping down is necessary it would help if when you make posts like this one

This is the final warning

All posts MUST be electronics related in some form, stop posting junk here that is non related.
Anyone that continues to ignore this will be given a 7 day timeout from posting!

as you did in the TEA thread it also applied to the thread Diversity Equity and Inclusion which is as far as I recall the very sort of thread which led to the word "technical" being added to the General Chat thread. In spite of Dave's comments like this one,

We could also all agree that the general poltics side of it is done, and just keep it to engineering industry related matters and/or personal stories and advice going forward maybe?

Good luck getting those worms back into the can... 

The other option is calling it done and locking the thread. I don't want to have to do that, as many posts are very insightful and helpful for the OP and many others. #
As always it only takes one or two people to ruin it though and get into a tiff that goes on for pages.

That thread  is sending very mixed messages about what is to be tolerated on the forum and that is at the root of the current problem.

 

[gnif]

I find it exceptionally hard to accept that a thread that has been at a reasonably consistent signal to noise ratio over something like 130000 messages suddenly becomes a moderator focus with regards to topic-ness, and when asked why, the moderators respond with "we never tolerated this". I respectfully beg to differ.  It is not the thread that has changed, it is the moderator tolerance.  Denying that will not stand the test of time.

Funny you should say this, I have had many people PM me who wish to remain anonymous state that they left or do not bother with the TEA thread because of the SNR which has gradually gotten worse over time.

To "tolerate" something you need to know it's going on in the first place to decide if you want to tolerate it or not. We rely heavily on moderation reports to let us know where our attention is needed, there is simply too much activity here to monitor every single post ever made. Just because we missed the fact that the thread had been going off on a tangent from time to time does not mean it was allowed.

I further will argue that the mental ordeal of obsessingly collecting test equipment will have to be dealt with in a holistical manner, for it affects the obsessed and their family to a non-trivial extent. That is what we are doing, and that, IMNSHO, needs some considerable  freedom of navigation.  But that is my opinion, based on having read at least 50% of the thread. It is not a provable fact like what I stated above.

Sure, in which case the discussion is still in relation to electronics, you have this leeway in that thread. This however is not where things ended up, quite a few times we have had to clean up posts that were completely left-field and should never have been posted to the thread in the first place.

I am afraid that the thread is considerable danger of dying out if the moderation will be at this elevated level of attention forthwith. I don't know and probably should not speculate about the general attitude to the thread in the moderator community.   But I like (from a heavily biased POV) to think that the thread, as such, has sparked interest in learning and applying electronics and more so a scientific mind set to life, for some of its fringe participants. It certainly has had this effect on me, and I am very deeply in debt to it and its members. Consequently, I'm also very worried about its future in the light of recent actions.  There's an actual lump in my stomach as I type (and retype, several times) this.

We have no desire to lock/stop this thread, we wish it to continue, keeping within the rules of this community and the leeway that has been granted for the thread as written in the OP above.

It is not my forum, and the moderators headed by Dave have dictatorial powers. We all acknowledge this, for it is the actual state of things.  But a forum is nothing without its members and their contributions.  I find it hard to believe that the general well-being of the entire EEVblog forum world would benefit from the alienation of some of its most frequent and sometimes (when I'm not counted) competent posters by removing our playground corner.

</soapbox>

We have no desire to alienate people either, but we do have to set boundaries to prevent things devolving into a chaotic mess. Some posts that were recently removed from the TEA thread were on the topic of guns, explosives and bomb making... not sure how any of this could ever be justified anywhere on the forums.

[david77]

I imagine it's a mix between those who want to contribute but can't follow the thread because of 10 pages of someone talking about their piles and blood pressure tablets and the others contribute and then their TE gets lost in 10 pages of people talking about their dining table polishing and pace maker battery being replaced by the doctor in a few days.

That's pretty much it. Since we initially stepped in we have been getting a lot of messages from members thanking us for trying to clean up the thread so that it can be properly used again.

Can you quantify a "lot"? Complainers as well as thankers?

[gnif]

But even if clamping down is necessary it would help if when you make posts like this one

This is the final warning

All posts MUST be electronics related in some form, stop posting junk here that is non related.
Anyone that continues to ignore this will be given a 7 day timeout from posting!

You are very correct about this post here, I should have used the qualifier "here" as I was directly talking about the TEA thread.
Edit: I can't speak to what Dave decided in the other thread, however we (all moderators including dave) have made it abundantly clear that the TEA thread posts need to remain electronics related.

[pcprogrammer]

Based on what I have read so far about this ordeal I don't think it is fair to just blame the moderators. For a long time the thread seemed to regulate itself quite well, and maybe still was in the eye of the most frequent users of the thread, but the fact also seems to be that the moderators get more and more reports about off topic bits in the TEA thread.

Take the case that they don't act on it, then they will get grievance from the complainers that nothing is being done about it. Now they do act on it and get grievance from the ones being moderated. There is no middle ground here, other then to warn and hope it self restores, but when that does not happen action is needed.

I have worked in system administration for a couple of years and in the eyes of the users you are never doing it right. They fuck up and it is your fault. See the point here?

Yes this forum has rules, and I don't like rules either, but I enlisted fully knowing there would be rules. Be glad that on this forum there is some leniency in what can be posted off topic. And here I mean not electronics related stuff, but still of importance to engineers.

[gnif]

I imagine it's a mix between those who want to contribute but can't follow the thread because of 10 pages of someone talking about their piles and blood pressure tablets and the others contribute and then their TE gets lost in 10 pages of people talking about their dining table polishing and pace maker battery being replaced by the doctor in a few days.

That's pretty much it. Since we initially stepped in we have been getting a lot of messages from members thanking us for trying to clean up the thread so that it can be properly used again.

Can you quantify a "lot"? Complainers as well as thankers?

No complainers, many frequent (15+ so far) users with 1000+ posts explaining their desire to see this resolved.

[TERRA Operative]

I haven't (or at least I don't think I have) reported anyone in the thread, but I'm getting tired of stuff like the electric vehicle debates and other off topic stuff.

I don't mind talk about stuff related to electronics (i.e. relevancy of pinballs have been brought up, IMO, they are electronic enough to keep my interest when they are mentioned occasionally), but when it's a whole page talking about the weather in that corner of the UK or the like, it gets tedious.

I agree as gnif mentioned, a comment here or there doesn't bother me, but when I wake up in the morning and scroll past 2 or 3 pages of off topic discussion with the actual TEA content being a minor thing of a couple posts at most, it gets a little much.


I just want to see test gear and talk about test gear and feed my addiction to test gear.

[EDIT]

Funny you should say this, I have had many people PM me who wish to remain anonymous state that they left or do not bother with the TEA thread because of the SNR which has gradually gotten worse over time.

We have no desire to alienate people either, but we do have to set boundaries to prevent things devolving into a chaotic mess. Some posts that were recently removed from the TEA thread were on the topic of guns, explosives and bomb making... not sure how any of this could ever be justified anywhere on the forums.

I have personally seen a once active car forum that I was a very active member of die completely due to lack of moderation. It got to the point that it became a 'regular members club' to the almost complete gatekeeping and disdain of new members. In the end the place stagnated, people left and in the end even those who created their own echo chamber left and the place fell apart.

[mansaxel]

Funny you should say this, I have had many people PM me who wish to remain anonymous state that they left or do not bother with the TEA thread because of the SNR which has gradually gotten worse over time.

"Lurkers support me in email!"

You probably don't know where that came quote from⁰, but it is the first thing that springs to mind when I read your motivation. And I'm very sorry, but I can't be taking such arguments seriously, not after that association has tainted my view of your reasons.  I realise it is unfair.

Also, there are lots of threads on the forum that don't attract me, for reasons that could include "this has nothing to do with electronics" or any other reason. Do I report them? No, I ignore them. Sometimes, you can't win.

0: The traditional reference to the unseen masses of people who allegedly agree to an unpopular opinion publicly held by one single poster in the Usenet group alt.sysadmin.recovery

[gnif]

Funny you should say this, I have had many people PM me who wish to remain anonymous state that they left or do not bother with the TEA thread because of the SNR which has gradually gotten worse over time.

"Lurkers support me in email!"

Sorry but I can't go and just violate their privacy, however the posts here should show you there are already several others that did not PM me making it public that they feel the same.

[mansaxel]

Sorry but I can't go and just violate their privacy, however the posts here should show you there are already several others that did not PM me making it public that they feel the same.

Did not ask you to. 

[gnif]

Sorry but I can't go and just violate their privacy, however the posts here should show you there are already several others that did not PM me making it public that they feel the same.

Did not ask you to.

All good, wasn't what I meant to imply. Just stating that if I could cite them I would.

[Cerebus]

If the moderatorial power trip continues I'm out of here, and by here I mean the whole forum. I've noted of late that the rest of the forum is actually pretty moribund, with little real electronics discussion of interest going on anywhere, mostly just the usual suspects grinding through their own personal hobby horses again and again.

I used to, until a few weeks ago, make a point of checking 'beginners' for questions that I could answer well and put quite a bit of effort into doing so. There have been so few beginner questions that I've actually stopped actively doing that. When there were a handful, those threads descended into the usual noise, from the usual suspects gainsaying and arguing with each other that any effort to try and provide the beginner with a clear, well formed, authoritative answer was doomed to get lost in the noise.

What has made the TEA thread in particular so popular is its very nature, including all the "technically" off topic asides. There's off-topic stuff across the whole forum, in most threads, and singling this one out for "super secret probation" while not applying the same degree of attention to the rest of the place while the usual suspects troll, bicker and insult with impunity is just pointless. All it's doing is pissing off a bunch of people who make the TEA thread what it is.

I also suspect that the past lack of any worthwhile moderation elsewhere is what's driving the whole forum moribund. Who wants to join in yet another thread where the usual suspects bicker with each other, or anybody else who comes along. It's probably too late to fix that as leaving the usual suspects to their thing for so long has probably polluted the culture of the place sufficiently to permanently poison it. It's worth noting that the electronics content of the usual suspects postings is close to zero anyway.

So, instead of tackling the usual suspects the one thread that is generally the home of good mannered bonhomie becomes the centre of attention.

None of the normal TEA inhabitants can quite work out Dave's rationale for this, or why we're hearing from the two moderators who are normally least active in moderating and not from Dave himself. The only rationale that can be divined so far appears to be that Dave's been pointing out to people that they should come to the TEA thread because it's where the addicts hang out - then he gets a few more subscribers who don't like it, so he proceeds to try and change it. Cart before horse error there I think.

I think that gnif's most recent spate of vandalism may be the straw that broke the camel's back. Don't be surprised if the TEA thread becomes the home of tumbleweeds and the people who made it what it was go elsewhere. The discussion as to whether that is going to happen is already going on "in another place", as they say in the mother of all parliaments.

Edit:
A trivial post from me "If people don't hear from me here, the cognoscenti will know where to find me." just got deleted from the TEA topic. Just to let people know that I was going quiet. So, if anyone is in any doubt as to the totalitarian level of moderation that gnif intends to apply to that thread you shouldn't be now.

I don't think there's any reason to debate this any more. It's pretty clear that TPTB, at least in their form as gnif have decided on a course of action pretty much guaranteed to destroy the TEA thread as we know it. I would not be surprised to see messages silently disappear from this discussion too. When moderators get so out of control that they have to try and control the conversation absolutely you know it's time to not waste any time debating it but just move on.

[Brumby]

I know of forums where any attempt to discuss moderation is forbidden - and the reason is simple: To avoid all the wailing, challenges and dummy spits you get otherwise.

Like here.

Be thankful it is being tolerated as much as it is.