CrapXon engineers morally bankrupt??

[Stonent]

Is this the third "morally bankrupt" thread we've had now?

Starting to get tired eh?  Like "Synergize" 

I wonder what other kinds of bankrupt we can have?

Is (insert your most hated politician) sexually bankrupt? 

[Stonent]

Around the 2006-2008 era when they had the bad fluid recipe, there were lots of bad capacitors.  Even good brands like Nichicon, Rubycon, and Chemi-con were affected.  The low-end brands were more likely to fail than usual.  Ones from before and after that era were, well, not good, but no worse than they were supposed to be.

Wasn't the bad recipe a result of industrial espionage?
Then those that were responsible for leaking the recipe are the morally bankrupt ones, right?

The damage and grief that they caused the electronc industry, the trashed appliances, filled landfills etc has to have had a far worse impact to the environment than some  to auto software, right?
Aren't we talking about millions, maybe billions of consumer appliances and the cost, repurchases and inconvenience to millions of users. 

And everybody wants to hang those responsible for the VW fiasco. 

At the time it all fell out, there were some guides for identifying good and bad caps.  I think the standard was the Japanese caps were all pretty much safe, but ones from Taiwan and China were to be avoided.  So Nippon-Chemicon, Nichicon, Rubycon, Panasonic were all safe, anything beyond that, you'd be concerned about.

[tautech]

Around the 2006-2008 era when they had the bad fluid recipe, there were lots of bad capacitors.  Even good brands like Nichicon, Rubycon, and Chemi-con were affected.  The low-end brands were more likely to fail than usual.  Ones from before and after that era were, well, not good, but no worse than they were supposed to be.

Wasn't the bad recipe a result of industrial espionage?
Then those that were responsible for leaking the recipe are the morally bankrupt ones, right?

The damage and grief that they caused the electronc industry, the trashed appliances, filled landfills etc has to have had a far worse impact to the environment than some  to auto software, right?
Aren't we talking about millions, maybe billions of consumer appliances and the cost, repurchases and inconvenience to millions of users. 

And everybody wants to hang those responsible for the VW fiasco. 

At the time it all fell out, there were some guides for identifying good and bad caps.  I think the standard was the Japanese caps were all pretty much safe, but ones from Taiwan and China were to be avoided.  So Nippon-Chemicon, Nichicon, Rubycon, Panasonic were all safe, anything beyond that, you'd be concerned about.

Sure, that was back then, what is the situation now?
Wouldn't all lower quality cap manufacturers be well aware of the bad recipe and have left it long behind them?
Is it now just a case that other than the main Jap manufacturers the rest are still learning their trade?

I'm quite surprised this thread has not provided more discussion as only a very few have posted bad things about CapXon.
Or is just too easy to add an "r" and sling some shit. 

[wraper]

At the time it all fell out, there were some guides for identifying good and bad caps.  I think the standard was the Japanese caps were all pretty much safe, but ones from Taiwan and China were to be avoided.  So Nippon-Chemicon, Nichicon, Rubycon, Panasonic were all safe, anything beyond that, you'd be concerned about.

Except Nichicon HN and HM (tons of failed Dell motherboards), Nippon Chemi-con KZG and KZJ  . As of some others, except infamous GF series, Samxon didn't have any serious issues. Samwhwa had awful WB series, other series were not so bad but not good either.

[Simon]

I think on the whole engineers like to produce good products but it is probably company policy to make sure they fail. Unfortunately we can't always pick our jobs and certainly not used away they are done. People raise an eyebrow when my political views become apparent alongside the fact I work for a company that produces goods that go into many military vehicles. Not that we produce weapons or anything. But people are ignorant and assume that you choose your job and are fully responsible for how the whole thing is done. As I have often pointed out find me another job that pays at least as much and is what I would prefer to do and I would happily move. You have to pay the bill somehow.

I would expect that in large companies there is a whole technical purchasing department that deals with selecting components possibly even before they are used so that when engineers come to do a design they already know what they are working with and the company already have it costed out. Fortunately I don't have to work this way and I choose my own components although that in itself becomes a job.

[jitter]

I would expect that in large companies there is a whole technical purchasing department that deals with selecting components possibly even before they are used so that when engineers come to do a design they already know what they are working with and the company already have it costed out. Fortunately I don't have to work this way and I choose my own components although that in itself becomes a job.

That seems very likely for big ones like Samsung, etc.

The company I work for is an OEM with quite a few completely different customers. They all have their own preferences, and we stick to what they put in the BOM. Often that will be specified right down to the brand and type for even seemingly simple things like ceramic caps. And if we're free to choose, it'll still be only from one of the major well known brands.
However, consumer electronics is a quite a different game in which, I believe, quality has been sacrificed in favour of cost far too often.

[madires]

So I blame the product engineers at Cisco etc. for the planned obsolescence.

I still don't understand why using their products is like fiddling with crappy 1970's hardware,
like having to upload firmware from a command line?
How about we slap a GUI on that and get on with more important things in life.

If you would have to manage networks with more than a few network elements you'd know why command line rocks.

[madires]

I've not yet seen CrapXon used in Cisco gear yet, have they taken a turn for the worse?

I have. I opened up a Cisco AP at work and found that Cisco sure isn't as good as it used to be. Tried swapping them for some nice Nichicons but that didn't really improve the stability. Also tried replacing the PSU with no change. In the end, I found out that it would go stable if I turned off the 5GHz. Anyone want a dual band AP that doesn't work very well as a dual band AP? That's probably why the new APs I see being used at the various test stations are Netgears or even TP-Links...

I wouldn't buy any wireless or VoIP stuff from Cisco. Simply too much trouble. OpenWrt on TP-Link (in case the device is supported) is quite stable, especially the WLAN runs great. I'd also stay away from D-Link's WLAN products, a nightmare. Anyway, any device with CrapXon caps is build to fail after the warranty period (EU: 2 years). And the industry is telling us, that there's no planned obsolescence

[Rupunzell]

More often than not these days, Engineers who designs this stuff are not allowed complete freedom to chose the components used. These are often management and bean counter decisions where engineering folks play fifth fiddle to profits and expected returns on investment by stock holders and investors.

The widely held belief in today's business world is absolute maximum short term profit and return on investment any way possible. This often means producing items that function only for the duration of it's warranty and introduce a illogical variant driven by fashion to bait consumers into a new purchase under the belief the new one will be better than the old... except the new will have a completely different set of problems.

It is far more profitable to force the market to make never ending purchases than to offer them an item that actually meets their need long term that is completely serviceable, repairable, reliable and durable.


This is what too much of the techno industry has become.. much like the fashion industry.

Bernice

[wblock]

At what point in history were engineers ever given complete freedom to choose their components?   

CapXon caps seem to be designed to hit a low price point.  It's hard to say that they are not successful at that.  It can even be argued that they are good enough for a lot of the equipment they are in.  My JBC soldering station thread has pictures showing three CapXons in it, at least one of which has ratings that claim it to be better than a Panasonic FR!  That station was made before the capacitor plague, and those caps were still functional.

I've found a lot of failed CapXons from the 2006-2008 time period, but there have also been more than a few failed higher-end capacitors like Rubycon and Chemicon.  Of course, there were more of the Lelons and even more generic cheap brands.  That might actually have been a good thing for CapXon and other low-priced brands, forcing them to keep a closer eye on their quality control.  They are closer to the go/no-go line than more expensive brands, and could have whole shipments refused for being out of spec.

As far as quality goes, I have found only one or two bad Panasonic caps, ever.  Guess what I use. 

[jitter]

For the failure of CapXon, I think it might not be their wrong. The problem is OEMs are always seeking lower cost, so they use 85 degrees caps instead of 105 or 125 deg caps. Comparing apples to apples, a CapXon 105 deg cap may not be so bad compared to a "generic use" model chemicon/rubycon.

If we were to ignore the BOM of our customers and use different parts (not necessarily of lower quality), then we'd get a complaint and the customer would send back the shipment.  With small, unmarked, components this would not be as conspicuous as with, say,  replacing large blue BC/Vishay caps with black Nichicon items....

Having said that, our company once had a logistics manager and director that were always on the look out for cheaper components from the original manufacturer. They didn't shout to the world they were doing that, but before they got fired (inevitably, but it IMHO took too long), I had to deal with far more than average rejects. The time it took us to put this right cost far more than those two morons saved. In the end they got wise and purchased from authorized distributors like Arrow and Avnet and the likes and our problems ended.

Another fail source is ripple current. This heats up the cap, and have the same consequence of underrated temperature, especially in a shitty product designed for cost. Lower inductance, smaller transformer and asynchronous rectification contribute to higher ripple current and higher loss, therefore higher temperature, shorter life.

Of course, using a cap outside of spec will shorten its life, whatever the brand that is on it.

I don't think CapXon can not make good caps, anyway these days it is easy to reverse engineer almost any products, including capacitors from competitors. The reason they make shit for shit is all because of cost.

At least CapXon is a brand that's well known and that has datasheets. That can't be said for the real nasty stuff.

Less scrupulous companies may sell rejects under a different name, I once found out.
I maintain the lighting system in an apartment building, and at the time I was using Philips Genie energy saving lamps. Then I found a department store was selling identical looking ESLs with their own brand on it, priced rather friendlier.  These were sourced from Philips as they even carried a little symbol I know to be a Philips factory identifier. They turned out not to be so identical. The light was slightly paler and their failure mode was different.

At EOL, I cracked open the socket to see the ballast. All Philips ballasts were stuffed with Aishi electrolytics (a brand I've come to find in a variety of lighting products used in several brands and which I trust), but the department store's were "Bright". In the Philips ESL, it was the lamp that failed, in the department store's it was the ballast. The main smooting capacitor had burst open on all of them.
I didn't think much of it as the department store's ESLs had exceeded indicated life (specified exactly the same as the Philips ESLs, BTW), but later I discovered almost by accident they were actually carrying the exact same type as the Aishi caps used in the Philips ESLs. My guess, a lower quality or rejected batch dumped on the market under a fantasy brand that Philips deemed good enough to be used in private label stuff.

[SeanB]

I will guess that the store brand were contracted to Phillips, but the store wanted a cheaper product and thus Phillips simply did the swap to using the lower cost capacitor and to using a different phosphor in the lamp, removing or reducing the redder portion of the blend to cut the cost, as the red is typically the most expensive oxide blend.

Thus the different colour temperature ( bluer and slightly brighter), and the cheaper capacitor ( likely only a cent or so cheaper, but it adds up over 100k units, plus it is multiplied by the assorted markups applied down the supply chain so was probably responsible for a 50c difference in price alone) along with the house branding on the already amortised Phillips moulding dies was the difference. Not a reject batch, but a OEM job pared down to meet the specs almost exactly, and with a lifetime that would just pass the warranty period.

[Kjelt]

It looks like electronics are replaced every couple of years nowadays so it makes good sense for some products to have electronic components that will work for a couple of years.
The problem is not the engineers or factory or manufacturer, the problem is the stupendous price erosion on electronics in the last decade.
See what a brand tv cost in the 90's and the margin the manufacturer made and today, it is unbelievable that they still are in business.
Yeah we all want mercedes quality stuff in our own products but the consumer wants to pay for Kia so that is reality.

[han]

Just came in my mind...Is there any structural/chemical difference between:
cheap capacitor and expensive capacitor
85C vs 105C


in short.whats make expensive 105C vs cheap 85C rated difference?

[Rupunzell]

To this day, there are many engineering folks who sill specify each and every part, item and more in their designs among the group of folks I'm associated with. The Gal who designs some of the cameras that are used for NASA space imaging not only specifies each and every part, she also does a very significant part of the mechanical design and a LOT more. The design is given to an entirely different group which test the design to destruction or near destruction to fully understand what, why and where the design can go so very wrong. There is a LOT at stake for electronic devices used in space flight or similar. Projects like this are often assigned to one individual as the design core and the rest are mostly support staff. Yet, she is not the only one, for the stuff I design that goes into production, much the same applies including specifying test gear, creating how to test and fix the device and a LOT more. If you're in a position like this when stuff goes wrong, you better know precisely why and how to make it proper sooner than later as you're directly responsible for the ENTIRE design from start to end.

There are a time in electronics design history when engineers were mostly allowed to specify and design in the parts, device and related of their choice. It was also time when highly specialized devices that were made "in house" were common. This offered the end product a market advantage due to the performance offered that the competitor's could not. This allowed a greater profit and control of the market. Some of this still applies to this day. As the consumer techno devices grew and techno widgets became software-firmware centric, the focus on speciality hardware centric devices grew to near zero significance as cost and perceive marketable features produced techno items with can produce extreme profits. These same techno items are no expected to last or be in service for decades, completely repairable-serviceble and lack obsolesce due to their state of the art-pushing the limits of electronic devices and laws of Physics.

In the corporate world today where more often than not engineers are treated as disposable items with a best use-by date, the majority of engineers are never allowed to practice this degree of control over any product for a host of reasons.

Throw away techno widgets that are specifically designed to last the warranty period only then tossed out is today's norm for consumer electronics which dominate the most profitable areas of the electronics (actually data-software-firmware-number crunching and related) industry today.

As for 'lytic capacitors, they can be good to very poor depending on cost per 'lytic. Have a look at this just to be obsolete cap by Vishay, it is rated to live 20,000 hours at 125 degrees C, has ceramic seals and more. They cost about $7.00 USD each in 200pc quantities. How would a 'lytic like this fit in the world of disposable consumer electronics?
http://www.vishay.com/docs/28355/123sala.pdf

What makes them different? Everything from seals to foil etching, foil purity, separator quality to electrolyte purity, lead attachment to the foil and much more. These are very precisely controlled factors within the capacitor design that determine if it will be a high temperature, high ripple current capable, low ESR, extremely long life cap or one that cost pennies that is designed to last for less than a thousand hours at specifications. How the specific 'lytic is used in a design affects the service life of the part significantly.



Bernice

At what point in history were engineers ever given complete freedom to choose their components?   

[SeanB]

Cheap capacitor, use a lower purity aluminium for the foil, so that there is a higher rate of exhaustion of the electrolyte in reforming away the impurities. then use a thinner foil so you use less, and etch it more aggressively to have even lower mass of metal to carry the ripple current. Use a thinner paper separator, so you use less volume inside to allow you to use less electrolyte in the unit, giving lower operating life. Put in thinner case to save cost. Fill with cheaper electrolyte, leaving out or putting in less of the expensive stabilisers, so that the electrolyte is both cheaper per litre and less stable with time, and put in barely enough to wet most of the separating paper and the foils. Attach the single tab to the foil with a single punch through riveted hole, and leave off the second paper strip that provides extra protection to the rivet tabs from punching through the oxide layers on the opposite foil. Then seal with a cheaper plastic seal, instead of a proper multilayer seal that is both strong, seals well and which will not react with the electrolyte. During manufacture of the foils anodise the foils to a thinner oxide layer, so that capacitance par unit area is higher, and thus you use less of that expensive foil that you have to buy.

Expensive long life unit do the exact opposite. expect the cost to be more for the unit, but lifetime will be much longer.

[baoshi]

Those who works with mainland Chinese companies probably know CapXon caps are made in Taiwan. It is one of the luxury brand there. Other than that you either get worse local brands, or fake Japanese brands. So be grateful.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GreyWoolfe]

Those who works with mainland Chinese companies probably know CapXon caps are made in Taiwan. It is one of the luxury brand there. Other than that you either get worse local brands, or fake Japanese brands. So be grateful.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I am truly sorry that, for you, CapXon is a luxury brand.  I tend to buy Panasonic for myself.

[Rupunzell]

http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/hardware/leaking-capacitors-muck-up-motherboards

http://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/computing/hardware/dell-tried-to-hide-bad-capacitors-problem

Bernice

[baoshi]

Those who works with mainland Chinese companies probably know CapXon caps are made in Taiwan. It is one of the luxury brand there. Other than that you either get worse local brands, or fake Japanese brands. So be grateful.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I am truly sorry that, for you, CapXon is a luxury brand.  I tend to buy Panasonic for myself.

Don't get me wrong. I not defending them. Just try to set expectation.