Author Topic: Covid 19 virus  (Read 234146 times)

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Offline Stray Electron

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #450 on: March 17, 2020, 06:04:56 pm »

Unfortunately the infection numbers mean absolutely nothing because they solely rely on testing. In most parts of Europe the situation is so out of control that only people with severe symptoms get tested. Also a large number of people have such mild symptoms that they aren't tested at all. All in all the only real number you can use as a gauge to say anything meaningfull about the spreading of the Corona virus is the number of deaths.


   The US is in the same situation.  The CDC bungled the early (NO) testing so we don't have any real numbers to go by EXCEPT the number of dead.  They've finally approved some states and a couple of private labs to do testing but I see that in my own state there are still 158 people AWAITING testing as of their last report.  That's significantly more than the total number of officially infected people at the time. However the CDC and the Florida State Health Department are no longer reporting any official numbers so that's a BAD sign.

   The administration said last week that they would have the capability of doing over 1,000,000 test per week by this week but I'm not seeing it. They are reporting higher number of officially infected cases but from everything that I can find out, the doctors and hospitals are still having to BATTLE the CDC to get an official tests performed and the back log for testing is in the hundreds in most, if not all, states.
 

Offline vodka

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #451 on: March 17, 2020, 06:14:58 pm »
I can't believe that seemingly intelligent people in this forum and elsewhere continue to believe that this isn't extremely serious and still want to compare it the annual flu! Like the guy on here 13 days ago that told me that in Germany they only had 50 cases and that it wasn't anything for them to worry about.

Well, that's an easy one to convince people.

Citing virologist Marc Van Ranst: What is the difference with the flu?
  • it's more contagious
  • it's more deadly
  • there is no vaccine
  • there is no antiviral medicine
  • nobody has antigens, nobody is immune to it

Obviously, for 85% percent of the population this will be like a good flu, but if you're into that unlucky other 15% part, then you may get very ill, need intensive care like artificial coma and assisted respiration or possibly die. For a country like the US, that small unlucky 15% is about 50 million people. Now count how many free hospital beds there are, let alone specialized life saving equipment. Let that sink in.


There aren' bed for all severe infected
There aren't doctors and nurses for replacing  to infected and deaths
There aren't mechanic breathing
There aren't safety material for avoiding to infect the medic personal.
There aren't test for coronavirus.

But we are the better healthy system of the world.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #452 on: March 17, 2020, 06:17:21 pm »
The handling here is a mess. A gal I'm friends with who works in one of our offices in another state has been sick recently, the symptoms are different than Covid but she decided to get tested anyway. She ended up spending a couple hours in a waiting area full of sick people, most of whom had masks but not everyone did and several were coughing all over. They took her to another room for a swab and then sent her back to the waiting area, then 45 minutes later to a hallway to swab for some other disease then back to the waiting area. Now it's a matter of waiting to hear the results, but I suspect she did not have Covid going in but was almost certainly exposed to it in the hospital. This sort of thing really reinforces my thought that it is best to not go anywhere near a hospital unless I'm seriously ill and believe I have it already.
 

Offline DrG

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #453 on: March 17, 2020, 06:33:53 pm »
Just released yesterday - report 16 March 2020 Imperial College COVID-19 Response Team

This is the UK "study" that you have, or will be reading about with mortality rates that will be making headlines.

https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/medicine/sph/ide/gida-fellowships/Imperial-College-COVID19-NPI-modelling-16-03-2020.pdf

Edit: I want to add that there is a reason that I put "study" in quotes. After my first reading, this is an intelligent modelling position to guide policy - and that is certainly my opinion. I just want to make sure that we understand that it is not a published and peer-reviewed study. I intentionally avoid headlining a few numbers and statements. I understand the TL;DR mindset, but the other side is - didn't read enough to understand more than the headline, bottom line, bullet, short version, 10-second sound bite. I mean no disrespect to anybody here - we are all more similar than dissimilar.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2020, 06:50:43 pm by DrG »
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Offline not1xor1

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #454 on: March 17, 2020, 06:37:24 pm »
Pensioners still cannot get basics at their supermarket. I just got back from our local supermarket. No toilet paper, no meat, no eggs, no pasta, no tissues, not nothing except junk food. The local chemist has run out of basic meds too. The supermarkets are out of control as is our government. Scott Morrison, our Prime Minister, triggered the panic by telling people to stock up.

The state government should impose limits and use the police to fine the hoarders. Better still, use batons on them. Another effective method might be to post on forum a photo of the face of their hoarders with their trolley of loot.

that's crazy
we are the most affected country in the world at the moment (in China the epidemic is over or sort of) but apart form some medical and personal protection devices we have plenty of food, cleaning products, etc in the supermarkets

I even read US people are going to buy weapons like crazy ... I do not know if they are afraid somebody comes and steal their stock of toilet paper or if the pretend to kill the virus by shooting  :-DD
 
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Online edavid

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #455 on: March 17, 2020, 06:45:04 pm »
From what I've read covid-19 is *not* transmitted by feces.
Do you have a credible study that states differently?

  As a matter of fact, yes I do. https://externalmediasite.partners.org/Mediasite/Play/45a9a74f18ec45deb338e00ac4cf4e281d  According to it, the virus remains active in fecal matter for over a week after the person is clinically "cured".  Given that viruses like warm moist environments I suppose that it shouldn't be a surprise that it can be found in fecal matter, even after the patient is "cured".

   This could help explain some of the "reinfected" individuals and spreading from"cured" individuals that were noted in China.

You're both right, or both wrong.  Virus was detected, but there's no known case of transmission by that route.  It is not known if it is possible.
 

Offline not1xor1

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #456 on: March 17, 2020, 06:51:05 pm »
In Italy the infection rate is slowly getting lower and lower although the situation is not the same everywhere (there is even a province with zero cases).
It takes time to see the effect of quarantine. I'm sure anyway that we'll have to wait at least another month before getting where China is now.
Unfortunately the infection numbers mean absolutely nothing because they solely rely on testing. In most parts of Europe the situation is so out of control that only people with severe symptoms get tested. Also a large number of people have such mild symptoms that they aren't tested at all. All in all the only real number you can use as a gauge to say anything meaningfull about the spreading of the Corona virus is the number of deaths.

it does mean something unless you change the measuring (testing) method since virus has not mutated yet

here tests are performed to people with temperature of 37.5°C or above and COVID-19 compatible symptoms

if you take strict quarantine measures and go on with that sort of test you have a valid feedback to check the effectiveness of the quarantine as the percentage of symptomatic vs asymptomatic doesn't change much... it is a constant from a statistical POV

obviously there is a time lag and now we get the figures of (symptomatic) people infected days ago
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #457 on: March 17, 2020, 07:06:12 pm »
I can't believe that seemingly intelligent people in this forum and elsewhere continue to believe that this isn't extremely serious and still want to compare it the annual flu!
You have completely misunderstood what I and others have said.

The point is that flu is dangerous: very deadly pandemics occur about three times a century.  We have not had a really bad influenza pandemic for decades now, and that is probably why people like you think that flu is not extremely serious.  The average death toll from influenza is over half a million dead, worldwide, each year.  It is worse than a regional war!

My point is that we, as a species, are behaving exactly like the idiots who build cities on a flood plain, and then run around panicing when the next bad flood comes along.  We live on a planet with a LOT of dangerous things, and influenza and coronaviruses are among the things we should be prepared for.
While most annual flu seasons are "mild" -- you know, mild, like conventional war among a handful of countries --, every now and then a nasty variant comes along and kills a measurable fraction of the total human population.

There is nothing surprising, nothing exceptional, in this coronavirus pandemic.  It, or something like it, was fully expected; just not when or which virus.

The Chinese response to the outbreak is absolutely commendable.  In the aftermath, if we ignore the circle-jerking politicians congratulating themselves how well they managed the situation, we'll find that while the Chinese response was drastic, it was the most efficient course of action, both in human lives and in financial terms.  The question, that will not be answered in public in the West, is why we did not do the same, and why we haven't planned well enough for this even though we knew that this will happen -- just not when --, and that all signs point to this not being nearly the worst kind that we should be ready to expect.  (And don't tell me "we cannot", because we bloody well can.)

Like influenza, this coronavirus spreads mostly via droplets in exhalation.  If people wear a scarf or anything in front of their mouth, they drastically reduce the amount of virus-laden droplets they spread.  If people also wear gloves, without touching their face (or exhaled droplets) with those gloves, they minimize the spread of the virus.  Because it looks like a major part of the spread occurs before the person realizes they are infected, it is crucial that people who believe they are healthy behave as if they were infected, and try to avoid spreading the virus through droplets in their own exhalations.
If everyone did this, the pandemic would be over in three weeks.

The reason social isolation and self-quarantine is recommended, is that it works better than the above.  A single person is smart, but people are stupid as hell; you'd always have the one Typhoid Mary who thinks they don't have the virus, and do shortcuts that keep the infection spreading.  You know, the sly wipe of the nose, or cough in your gloved hand, when nobody is looking.  The only thing that works with stupid, is making stupidity harmless; and that's what isolation does.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2020, 07:09:10 pm by Nominal Animal »
 
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Offline not1xor1

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #458 on: March 17, 2020, 07:08:25 pm »
Wearing masks (even DIY) is absolutely essential !!!
Who is saying it is not is an idiot !!!

https://fastlifehacks.com/n95-vs-ffp/

PS: an absolutely primitive DIY mask has an effectiveness (to stop droplets) of about 25%.
That is a pretty good number when talking statistics of random processes..

well I had bought ten FFP3 breathing masks about one year ago

now I just have one left that's in good condition
I wear that when I have to get out and then sanitize it by an isopropanol bath (I was lucky to get 5 liters for just 19 euros, now they are out of stock)

I also wear disposable nitrile gloves to help me remember not to touch my face (you may get infected by touching your eyes - your mouth and nose should be protected by the mask)

I'm confident I'm safe if I keep a safe distance from other people
if somebody else sneezes or cough near me I'm likely to get infected
medical staff do need full face masks

BTW no mask protects you if you are so stupid to raise it to smoke a cigarette or to kiss somebody you do not see since long (you can't imagine how many idiots you can immediately spot when you get out)

the most important thing is: get out as little as possible, just to buy food and medicines if you or somebody you care for needs them
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #459 on: March 17, 2020, 07:10:54 pm »
[...] influenza and coronaviruses are among the things we should be prepared for.  [...]

There really should be portable equipment/resources at the EU level that can be flown in to hot spot areas to help quell outbreaks,  without each member country having to shoulder the cost of maintaining a high level of preparedness.   A perfect job for a shared institution like the EU.
 

Offline not1xor1

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #460 on: March 17, 2020, 07:12:44 pm »
If you have the virus or symptoms mask or not stay the fuck home and away from others.  It's not rocket science.

Do we need governments to declare marshal law and arrest people for being morons?

unfortunately yes... it looks like there are just plenty of idiots out there
I could shoot plenty of photos about them, but then I'd be and idiot as well as I would not abide by the quarantine for a valid reason  :)
 

Online Bud

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #461 on: March 17, 2020, 07:16:55 pm »
Quote
Cerebus already described in detail why generic / self made masks don't work at all.

They do work, but they do NOT protect you if you are not infected. They protect everyone else if you are infected and wear the mask.

with corona many people do not know they are infected because they
a) are in incubation time
b) have a very mild corona
c) think it's the flu. here in europe where it's winter.
FFS Just listen to the experts and don't think you know better. False information and conspiracy theories are the last thing we need right now. If there is one time in your life to STFU and do as being told it is now.
The Goddamn experts can go to hell.  It were them saying 3 weeks ago that there is no need to close the  borders and they will never do it. Fuck your experts.
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Offline thinkfat

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #462 on: March 17, 2020, 07:20:49 pm »
If you have the virus or symptoms mask or not stay the fuck home and away from others.  It's not rocket science.

Do we need governments to declare marshal law and arrest people for being morons?

unfortunately yes... it looks like there are just plenty of idiots out there
I could shoot plenty of photos about them, but then I'd be and idiot as well as I would not abide by the quarantine for a valid reason  :)

I'm afraid, yes. The head of German RKI said in a recent press conference there were people organizing "Corona Parties" and urged them to stop. Now that clubs and bars are being closed they're just trying to get on with their (anti-)social behavior as if nothing was happening. I guess it'll take public statements from medical personnel about how members of every age group are affected and potentially getting killed. I like the idea of showing CT scans of infected lungs. That's one drastic, visual statement.
Everybody likes gadgets. Until they try to make them.
 

Offline TerminalJack505

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #463 on: March 17, 2020, 07:23:54 pm »
If you have the virus or symptoms mask or not stay the fuck home and away from others.  It's not rocket science.

Do we need governments to declare marshal law and arrest people for being morons?

unfortunately yes... it looks like there are just plenty of idiots out there
I could shoot plenty of photos about them, but then I'd be and idiot as well as I would not abide by the quarantine for a valid reason  :)

Case in point...

A coronavirus patient refused to quarantine, so deputies are surrounding his house to force him to
 

Offline not1xor1

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #464 on: March 17, 2020, 07:24:31 pm »
MY MAIN reason for commenting here though, is that I'm sure I've missed a lot of points in the last 17 pages, but WHY was/is Italy hit so hard???  It seems disproportionate regarding the vast number of deaths there, compared to the rest of the world??  Were they totally UN-prepared, didn't take it serious, didn't have the resources???  I don't understand!!

As far as I understand, Italy was taken by surprise. There were no tests in the beginning at all and they noticed the spread only from testing people who died of pneumonia, because they saw the number spiking.

you are right
and the virus had a chance to spread in a few hospital within medical staff before being detected so it got such a strong foothold

there are plenty of people in bad condition going to hospitals and there they got an infection instead of a cure
 

Offline not1xor1

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #465 on: March 17, 2020, 07:26:47 pm »
MY MAIN reason for commenting here though, is that I'm sure I've missed a lot of points in the last 17 pages, but WHY was/is Italy hit so hard???  It seems disproportionate regarding the vast number of deaths there, compared to the rest of the world??  Were they totally UN-prepared, didn't take it serious, didn't have the resources???  I don't understand!!

As far as I understand, Italy was taken by surprise. There were no tests in the beginning at all and they noticed the spread only from testing people who died of pneumonia, because they saw the number spiking.

They also, apparently, have the oldest population in Europe.  The triaging of patients was no managed well, the hospitals over flowed and people who needed care could not get it.

True, False, False
 

Online Bud

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #466 on: March 17, 2020, 07:32:29 pm »
[...] influenza and coronaviruses are among the things we should be prepared for.  [...]

There really should be portable equipment/resources at the EU level that can be flown in to hot spot areas to help quell outbreaks,  without each member country having to shoulder the cost of maintaining a high level of preparedness.   A perfect job for a shared institution like the EU.
Has an emergency response plan even ever existed in EU? Does not seem to be so.
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #467 on: March 17, 2020, 07:34:53 pm »
BTW no mask protects you if you are so stupid to raise it to smoke a cigarette or to kiss somebody you do not see since long (you can't imagine how many idiots you can immediately spot when you get out)

That's Italians for you! If this was spread by waving your hands around while you talk then you Italians would be right royally bangaxed!  :)
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #468 on: March 17, 2020, 07:44:02 pm »
I even read US people are going to buy weapons like crazy ... I do not know if they are afraid somebody comes and steal their stock of toilet paper or if the pretend to kill the virus by shooting  :-DD

Normally I would dismiss those guys who hoard guns and ammo as lunatics however watching this unfold makes them look not quite as crazy. I would not be hugely surprised if some areas start to have problems with groups of people going around robbing others of supplies or taking advantage of the quarantines and distractions keeping law enforcement busy to start looting businesses. Unfortunately there are always those who will take advantage of any situation to help themselves, we see it all the time, a natural disaster hits and people start looting stores, stealing TVs and computers and stuff like that which is obviously not essential. 
 

Offline Stray Electron

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #469 on: March 17, 2020, 08:03:02 pm »
Just released yesterday - report 16 March 2020 Imperial College COVID-19 Response Team

This is the UK "study" that you have, or will be reading about with mortality rates that will be making headlines.

https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/medicine/sph/ide/gida-fellowships/Imperial-College-COVID19-NPI-modelling-16-03-2020.pdf

   Wow!  The onset of infectiousness is 12 hours to 4.6 days! That should set off alarm bells!
 

Offline Stray Electron

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #470 on: March 17, 2020, 08:09:45 pm »
I can't believe that seemingly intelligent people in this forum and elsewhere continue to believe that this isn't extremely serious and still want to compare it the annual flu!
You have completely misunderstood what I and others have said.

The point is that flu is dangerous: very deadly pandemics occur about three times a century.

   My comment was not directed at you. I think you understand the situation better than most. My comment was directed at those who keep yelping that this virus doesn't matter because  20,000 people have already died this year in the US of the annual flu and of how many die yearly in auto accidents and other totally irrelevant numbers.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #471 on: March 17, 2020, 08:17:25 pm »
[...] influenza and coronaviruses are among the things we should be prepared for.  [...]

There really should be portable equipment/resources at the EU level that can be flown in to hot spot areas to help quell outbreaks,  without each member country having to shoulder the cost of maintaining a high level of preparedness.   A perfect job for a shared institution like the EU.
Has an emergency response plan even ever existed in EU? Does not seem to be so.
Even if such a plan existed it doesn't help because the EU as a whole is so densily populated that a problem quickly spreads across all countries.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline flyte

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #472 on: March 17, 2020, 08:29:46 pm »
There is nothing surprising, nothing exceptional, in this coronavirus pandemic.  It, or something like it, was fully expected; just not when or which virus.

Yes there is. The combination of infection speed (how contagious it is) and long incubation period, makes it very dangerous. It basically means any measures you take are too late and within two weeks a good part of the world population is in a hospital bed.

Where you are right is that the pharmaceutical conglomerates did not find it lucrative enough to develop antiviral drugs for corona-type viruses like SARS and MERS, as is the case for e.g. HIV. There industry and governments massively failed there. If we had those drugs developed and on stock, it could have saved all those worst patient cases, and it could have terminated the global spread.


The Chinese response to the outbreak is absolutely commendable.

Well, the second part of it when the whole world knew about it and it got out of control. However, it is my understanding in the first part they tried to dismiss and ignore it, and even went as far as silence those who reported it. Let's say they were very effective in cleaning up their own mess. The fact they took unprecedented emergency measures soon after it was in the media, tells me they knew about it long before.
 

Offline not1xor1

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #473 on: March 17, 2020, 08:32:18 pm »
BBC suggested air pollution in northern Italy caused lung problems in general and that contributed to high mortality from the virus. Is that right?

yes... both air pollution and tobacco smoke seem to make the disease outcome much worse
these are just preliminary data although they are quite plausible
« Last Edit: March 17, 2020, 10:19:13 pm by not1xor1 »
 

Offline rgarito

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Re: Covid 19 virus
« Reply #474 on: March 17, 2020, 08:35:21 pm »
I even read US people are going to buy weapons like crazy ... I do not know if they are afraid somebody comes and steal their stock of toilet paper or if the pretend to kill the virus by shooting  :-DD

Normally I would dismiss those guys who hoard guns and ammo as lunatics however watching this unfold makes them look not quite as crazy. I would not be hugely surprised if some areas start to have problems with groups of people going around robbing others of supplies or taking advantage of the quarantines and distractions keeping law enforcement busy to start looting businesses. Unfortunately there are always those who will take advantage of any situation to help themselves, we see it all the time, a natural disaster hits and people start looting stores, stealing TVs and computers and stuff like that which is obviously not essential.

We have a running bet at work on when the riots start...
 


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