Chinese government gives subsidies to Rigol (and Siglent?) for scope export?

[martinot]

I move an interesting topic here from another thread about a Rigol product (to not get too much off topic in that thread).

It depends a lot on how outside China price is after goverment subvention to Rigol for export.

 

Is it true that the Chinese regime (CCP) gives subventions to Chinese scope vendors?

Does not sound like a fair trade and fair market competition (like CCP, at least officially, claims that they strive for and wants).   

[martinot]

 [ moved from another thread to avoid OT ]

In English the word is "subsidy".

Ahh, thanks (used the same word as Rf-loop)!

In English the word is "subsidy".The DS1202Z-E is not bad, but it has serious bugs.  The one I found today is that the eye diagram triggering doesn't work, c.f "Scope Wars". 

I think Chinese pure players start to have quite decent and good hardware. At least in low end and middle market.

It's software that generally makes the big difference between western developed products and chinse developed products, and also support and documentation.

Generally, for some strange reason, it seems to be more difficult for many companies to be good at software engineering than hardware engineering. No idea why.

[martinot]

 [ moved from another thread to avoid OT ]

Oh, and talking of subsidies - I read an intersting piece last month over wht TCL TVs are so good, but so cheap.  It is supposed to be because the Chinese Government are quietly subsidizing them, so you get a much better TV than you would expect for the price.  If they are doing this with TVs, then it is perhaps not much of a stretch of the imagination to think they might be doing the same with other electronic products?

Yes, would be interesting to know more. I think it potentially could go against a lot of promises and agreements of countries that has signed up for fair and free trade.

Rf-loop mentions that Rigol seems to get financial backings and contributions from the Chinese regime, and I wonder if the same applies to Siglent? Maybe they do not have so good ties with the CCP and do not get subsidies like them? This is very interesting!

[all_repair]

Why are you worrying for Keysight and Tektonics and think that they are so incapable to file complain to WTO if what you imagine is true?  Stop looking for ghost.  Compare the number of STEM, and compare the wages, you shall see why Indian software programmers and China hardware shall out perform others in the same space.

[tautech]

Fake news.

Most jurisdictions offer export incentives to companies, why should China be any different ?   

[SilverSolder]

According to well established economic theory:  if someone is producing something "too cheap" -  you should fill your boots, as it is (obviously) not sustainable in the long run to sell things "too cheap"!  (If it is sustainable, then it is not "too cheap".)

[magic]

Fake news.

Most jurisdictions offer export incentives to companies, why should China be any different ? 

That surely makes it fake...

[BravoV]

Swedes should must trade buy more American products, trust me, your master will pet you nicely.

Reference -> European's master has an order for you all ... must bark when ordered and tail wagging. 

[2N3055]

Chinese are cheaper because they are less greedy, they don't have 80% of workforce in company that makes scopes in marketing, sales and legal department and most importantly they don't waste time whining  how life is not fair that you can't charge 5 times more for inferior product because it is "made in EU" or "made in USA" like that means anything. Product is good or not, does the job or not, and you can afford it or not.

I work a lot with German manufacturers, I have T&M equipment made in UK, USA, Canada, France, Malesia (Keysight) and China.
Western products are overpriced, Chinese are not cheap but show you what prices could be if prices were no so jacked up in the west.

And there is no country where manufacturers are more  government subsidized than USA. Whole T&M sector and military industrial complex charges prices that are so high that it constitutes "silent subsidy". Pretty much any new products development and R&D costs are covered by these hefty contracts. And then they sell the newly developed instrument to general public too... And charge for development cost again...

[BravoV]

And there is no country where manufacturers are more  government subsidized than USA. Whole T&M sector and military industrial complex charges prices that are so high that it constitutes "silent subsidy". Pretty much any new products development and R&D costs are covered by these hefty contracts. And then they sell the newly developed instrument to general public too... And charge for development cost again...

Enough said , no bias, no fake news, published by true American news outlet.

Here -> Air Force paid $1,280 apiece for coffee cups.

[Kleinstein]

The governments often pay subsidies for developing leading edge technology or catch up  if the come from behind. This is similar in many countries. Sometimes this is indirect / hidden through defense contracts. The low wages and cheap HW costs in China as many parts are produced there can make Chinese companies very competitive on price. Sometimes it looks like they just sell at just the price the absolutely need, not they market price the could get. In some cases market share is more important than income to them  . They still have to learn a bit on marketing.

[SilverSolder]

The governments often pay subsidies for developing leading edge technology or catch up  if the come from behind. This is similar in many countries. Sometimes this is indirect / hidden through defense contracts. The low wages and cheap HW costs in China as many parts are produced there can make Chinese companies very competitive on price. Sometimes it looks like they just sell at just the price the absolutely need, not they market price the could get. In some cases market share is more important than income to them  . They still have to learn a bit on marketing.

They are learning from us.  Take Youtube, for example:  a big "investment" where the product was delivered for free (no ads, no subscription) for many years, locking out any competition until a dominant position was established.  Then, the thumb screws start to be tightened...

The day will probably come where the Siglents and the Rigols of the world get very close to being A brands, if not actual A brands...   and the prices will reflect that.  By then, maybe we'll be able to buy cheap scopes from Vietnam or something like that!

[martinot]

Fake news.

Ok, so what RF-loop claimed abut subsidies for Rigol is not true?

Most jurisdictions offer export incentives to companies, why should China be any different ? 

Ok, so what RF-loop claimed abut subsidies for Rigol is true?

I get double (and contradicting) answers from you/Siglent. Wow.

[2N3055]

And who gives you subsidy? You atacked forum with such a fervour like it's your daytime job. Also cross posted and opened dozens of new topics, all of them virtualy on same topic, that allteady has been done many times before.

[ChunkyPastaSauce]

Does not sound like a fair trade and fair market competition (like CCP, at least officially, claims that they strive for and wants).   

A subsidy from another county is not always bad for the import county. If the receiving government thinks it's not fair and hurts industry, they can place an import duty equal to the subsidy from the export country.

[BravoV]

And who gives you subsidy? You atacked forum with such a fervour like it's your daytime job. Also cross posted and opened dozens of new topics, all of them virtualy on same topic, that allteady has been done many times before.

Most of the persistent attackers have somehow got their career or business affected badly by Chinese product, hence the venting and whining, we've seen alot here in this forum for years.

[SilverSolder]

And who gives you subsidy? You atacked forum with such a fervour like it's your daytime job. Also cross posted and opened dozens of new topics, all of them virtualy on same topic, that allteady has been done many times before.

Most of the persistent attackers have somehow got their career or business affected badly by Chinese product, hence the venting and whining, we've seen alot here in this forum for years.

It is a sign of the times.   Instead of addressing the obvious efficiency gap, even senior politicians prefer to engage in simplistic China-bashing...  and there are plenty of unsophisticates treading that path, so it is an easy vote winner.   So much simpler than dealing with the real issues...

[martinot]

And who gives you subsidy? You atacked forum with such a fervour like it's your daytime job. Also cross posted and opened dozens of new topics, all of them virtualy on same topic, that allteady has been done many times before.

Most of the persistent attackers have somehow got their career or business affected badly by Chinese product, hence the venting and whining, we've seen alot here in this forum for years.

It is a sign of the times.   Instead of addressing the obvious efficiency gap, even senior politicians prefer to engage in simplistic China-bashing...  and there are plenty of unsophisticates treading that path, so it is an easy vote winner.   So much simpler than dealing with the real issues...

SilveSodler; anyone doing bashing and ad hominen attacks, and avoid discussing facts, is you.

In other threads you avoided all facts and rational discussions, and when pressed for facts, you copped out with claiming I was Trump supporter (for others; not true).

Way to go. Indeed impressive.

[martinot]

A subsidy from another county is not always bad for the import county. If the receiving government thinks it's not fair and hurts industry, they can place an import duty equal to the subsidy from the export country.

That is quite possible.

I just want to know more facts in the matter about what Chinese person claimed as fact that Chinese Government/CCP gave special targeted subsidies for each scope that Rigol sold specifically outside the Chinese market.

a. Is it correct that Rigol receives these types of specific subsidies?
b. Does it apply to other vendors like Siglent, or not (Siglent sales people says both yes and no - seems to try to smudge the answer)?

c. In addition; SilverSolder said in another post that also some USA and European scope vendors recieves the same type of subsidies, for export of their scopes to other countries, as Rigol does. I am still curious to know who they are. Asked SilverSolder which companies in USA or Europe he talked about, but he never answered (only dodged the question with a lot of personal attacks and insults on me for asking about what *he* claimed).

[Ed.Kloonk]

What happens when your Trojan scope's hardware and it's MS software start fighting each other in the silicon for the right to spy on you?

Maybe this is why the scopes need fans now.

[2N3055]

What happens when your Trojan scope's hardware and it's MS software start fighting each other in the silicon for the right to spy on you?

Maybe this is why the scopes need fans now.

Then you call your doctor to refill you paranoia pills....

[Ed.Kloonk]

What happens when your Trojan scope's hardware and it's MS software start fighting each other in the silicon for the right to spy on you?

Maybe this is why the scopes need fans now.

Then you call your doctor to refill you paranoia pills....

I'm just saying don't even look at it sideways.

[SiliconWizard]

Does not sound like a fair trade and fair market competition (like CCP, at least officially, claims that they strive for and wants).   

Do you have any idea how much public money some companies get in MANY countries in the world? Want to take a look at the US to begin with?
Do you know how Tesla manages to even sell any car?

While public funding is fundamentally the opposite of liberal, almost all countries in the world do it, and thus almost no country in the world is actually really liberal. Not even the US.
While you may not like that if you're a liberal, you can't really claim it's unfair as almost every country in the world does it.

[SilverSolder]

Does not sound like a fair trade and fair market competition (like CCP, at least officially, claims that they strive for and wants).   

Do you have any idea how much public money some companies get in MANY countries in the world? Want to take a look at the US to begin with?
Do you know how Tesla manages to even sell any car?

While public funding is fundamentally the opposite of liberal, almost all countries in the world do it, and thus almost no country in the world is actually really liberal. Not even the US.
While you may not like that if you're a liberal, you can't really claim it's unfair as almost every country in the world does it.

To some people, if China does something, it doesn't matter if it is normal and widespread across the globe...  they will see it as a "bad thing" promulgated by the terrible communists, when they are not hiding under their beds.

[pidcon]

And there is no country where manufacturers are more  government subsidized than USA. Whole T&M sector and military industrial complex charges prices that are so high that it constitutes "silent subsidy". Pretty much any new products development and R&D costs are covered by these hefty contracts. And then they sell the newly developed instrument to general public too... And charge for development cost again...

Enough said , no bias, no fake news, published by true American news outlet.

Here -> Air Force paid $1,280 apiece for coffee cups.

This reminds me of the movie Contact, when S. R. Hadden says to Ellie:

"First rule in government spending: why build one when you can have two at twice the price? Only, this one can be kept secret. Controlled by Americans, built by the Japanese subcontractors. Who, also, happen to be, recently acquired, wholly-owned subsidiaries of Hadden Industries."