China Bashing

[Siwastaja]

Though, if you look at, say, the repeated cooking oil scandals in China

... or melamine-in-milk scandal. But one thing to remember is that sheer size of China (and population thereof) causes an observation bias. For example, in Finland, population 1/500th of China, we had, in 1970's, this case of margarine manufacturer harvesting stray cats and putting them in margarine. Yet, no one knows Finland as country of faked oil scandals; we have this one isolated case. But given the ratios of populations, you could have 500 (!!) of such incidents in China and still it wouldn't be any worse than Finland in this regard (simply speaking).

---

I mostly have not much to complain with China. You can buy well engineered stuff, and you can buy total crap. One thing which I like is availability of some modestly decent, OK-ish engineered technology which do the job, does not cost an arm and leg, is available to buy without a massive process of middle managers having to talk to other middle managers. Many Western counterpart are not only expensive and hard to buy, but also fail to operate because of arrogant development attitude of the engineers and overbloated software engineering practices (Chinese software held together with bubble gum may not be nice, but it works.) For example, I can buy a hybrid solar battery inverter designed and manufactured in China, and control it via MODBUS within 5 hours of testing and some personal spot-on assistance over email, but if I try to do the same with a German manufacturer, I get a defective product which crashes, and the support not able to do anything but, after weeks of middle managers talking with other middle managers, try to suggest some workarounds which might or might not work.

Then again, I don't like the idea of China having so much dominance on so many markets; but it's more like just generic "don't put all the eggs in the same basket" thinking; more pragmatic than nationalistic. As a result, if I can get an equally good Western product for, say, 50% more cost, or a significantly better Western product for, say 100-200% more cost, I tend to choose it. But if China sells me a working product for 50% less cost than a crappy joke by a Western company, I obviously choose the Chinese one instead of bankruptcy.

In other words, I will give some bonus points for not being Chinese, not for the hate of China, but for balancing the risks long-term, but the extent I can go to is very limited, and for any significant different in either price and/or quality, China will win.

And most often, China wins in quality. This seems to be impossible for some people to realize. Especially there is much more to quality than some finishing of some mechanical surface. Having a shiny appearance is of no value, if the quality of the process of buying the product is made shit, or if software is shit, as usual in too many Western products developed using modern-day software science paradigms.

[Ice-Tea]

Though, if you look at, say, the repeated cooking oil scandals in China

... or melamine-in-milk scandal. But one thing to remember is that sheer size of China (and population thereof) causes an observation bias. For example, in Finland, population 1/500th of China, we had, in 1970's, this case of margarine manufacturer harvesting stray cats and putting them in margarine. Yet, no one knows Finland as country of faked oil scandals; we have this one isolated case. But given the ratios of populations, you could have 500 (!!) of such incidents in China and still it wouldn't be any worse than Finland in this regard (simply speaking).

Same in Belgium. PCB contaminated transformer oil in cattle feed.

[Kim Christensen]

China bashing in the 2020s reminds me of Japan bashing in the 1970s.

[coppice]

Though, if you look at, say, the repeated cooking oil scandals in China, this obviously doesn't affect only foreigners. Rather, you are just seeing the effects of an authoritarian government. Really, a lot of the not so great things you see coming from China can be attributed to their government and how it hurts its own people in order to stay in power.

Well, China can't truly catch up to the most developed western countries if it falls behind on food contamination scandals.

[nctnico]

Though, if you look at, say, the repeated cooking oil scandals in China

... or melamine-in-milk scandal. But one thing to remember is that sheer size of China (and population thereof) causes an observation bias. For example, in Finland, population 1/500th of China, we had, in 1970's, this case of margarine manufacturer harvesting stray cats and putting them in margarine. Yet, no one knows Finland as country of faked oil scandals; we have this one isolated case. But given the ratios of populations, you could have 500 (!!) of such incidents in China and still it wouldn't be any worse than Finland in this regard (simply speaking).

Same in Belgium. PCB contaminated transformer oil in cattle feed.

Yup. The common denominator is corruption and/or lack of (government) supervision / regulations.

[jpanhalt]

China bashing in the 2020s reminds me of Japan bashing in the 1970s.

More like the 1950's to mid-60's. In the 1950's "Made in Japan" implied made from recycled beer cans left by American GI's.   By the 1970's, its products had begun to be improved a lot.  Read about Dr. Deming's influence. I have a Jet drill press from 1974 and made in Japan that is better than any Jet drill press made today.

https://deming.org/learn/about-dr-deming/ and see Wikipedia if you are not familiar with what he did.

[Gyro]

The same stigma applied to "Made in Taiwan" labels in more recent decades. Who would have thought that TSMC would go on to have such a role in the world today and that the country would become such a technology hub.

Strangely 'Made in India' products don't seem to have come to the same attention, despite poor quality steel and manufacturing tolerances - things like lathe chucks have a poor reputation for instance. Maybe export levels have to reach a certain threshold... or be more consumer oriented.

I guess every country has it's day in the spotlight as it climbs the quality curve.

[RJSV]

   From China came a very wise BOOK, involving timing insights, and situation insights..
..'The Art of War'.

   That's not exclusively for armed conflict;  in fact there are insights on how to AVOID direct conflict, to protects one's interests, whether for country, for a business, or in direct war.

   China products include health advances, not even fully understood or appreciated (everywhere).

   But I'd have to agree that there are many component supply aspects worthy of criticism.

(No one can argue, that Bruce Lee was fat and out of shape!)

[jpanhalt]

Strangely 'Made in India' products don't seem to have come to the same attention, despite poor quality steel and manufacturing tolerances - things like lathe chucks have a poor reputation for instance. Maybe export levels have to reach a certain threshold... or be more consumer oriented.

While I don't disagree, you might be surprised by what is actually produced in India today and preferred.  Check out Mahindra ag equipment.  It is very popular compared to stuffy and arrogant John Deere where I live.  Deere probably has the edge in the huge implement market, but in smaller equipment, Mahindra is well respected.

[coppercone2]

and if you actually read my posts, you would see that I did compliment the quality of the gearing and internals of the screw driver in the thread you mention and the micro drill (other then minor wobble) and micro polishing tool in my other threads. I said the scam is with the accessories, they try to give you a complete set to look like its a great deal, but my reality is that the tool is of good quality but you need to spend double to get the proper accessories for it.

Maybe actually read it before you make a blanket statement about my intentions. I said you get high quality bearings and bushings and shit like that in the clutch that basically indicate the entire 'budget' of the tool was blown by the point they got to any required accessories, hence the comparison to the air conditioner, where you get a big complicated metal machine with some joke add on for the window (but you either use theirs or engineer your own, its not a complete product). Finding the proper accessories for the micro stuff was not a easy matter, in its default state without the extra leg work its not useful, as I said, people and I say that it basically won't drill a war hammer plastic miniature, just like a window AC won't work good unless you start cutting Styrofoam parts yourself.

[schmitt trigger]

China bashing in the 2020s reminds me of Japan bashing in the 1970s.

Japan bashing was so widespread, that an urban legend circulated that the Japanese re-named a city “Usa” such that they could label their products Made in USA.

Which of course is false. The Japanese town of Usa actually existed prior to WW2, and no customs agency worth its salt would allow paperwork without the full geographical origin: Usa, Japan.

[Buriedcode]

...You get what you pay for, this is an eternal truth。

I am often impressed/worried by how many people don't seem to understand this.  Some of the highest quality products in the world are designed and manufactured in China. Some of the worst and cheapest products in the world are designed and made in China.  Its manufacturing scale is so vast there is a huge variation and many levels of "quality" - its just those who regularly compain about "Chinese crap" seem to buy the cheapest, lowest end stuff, and assume this is representitive of the only manufacturing superpower on Earth.

Other countries cannot produce many, if any, products at either end of that scale, and so seem to get a better reputation, because they're lowest quality products are "better".

I too have noticed a distinct anti-East bias in the forum.  I have seen the word "ch*nky" used in several posts with no mention of it by others.  These people know it is offensive as it is used in that context - as a racial slur.

And one of the most frustrating things is those who seem to love bashing China use many many chinese made products that work just fine.  Either they aren't aware of this, or more likely, they selectively pick out products that have failed them to justify their bigotry.  If they truely didnt' like the Chinese, then they should use phones, computers, and test equipment made elsewhere - and good luck finding or affording those.

[coromonadalix]

i would say   

it's our habits who define what we get on the market,  we think cheap   we get cheap,   not just from china ..

even paying prime $$ we can still get shit ... it depend on what market you want to buy stuff, electronics, home appliances, cars  name it ...


now  it is based on consumption habits, it broke    dump it, and buy again,  that's the business model, quality  is almost non existent anymore

i came from an old era of what you had before could last years and years,  i've seen the wind of changes, i want to cry  ... tv's who could last 10 years flat

fridges who could last 15 years  .....    now   loll all is pure @%^#^%

if we talk about bashing,  i would bash  the human behaviour

[brucehoult]

i came from an old era of what you had before could last years and years,  i've seen the wind of changes, i want to cry  ... tv's who could last 10 years flat

fridges who could last 15 years  .....    now   loll all is pure @%^#^%

10 years? 15? What kind of crap do you buy?

In 1990 I bought a 2 bedroom flat, and at the same time bought a Flymo lawnmower, a Panasonic vacuum cleaner, and our local NZ Fisher&Paykel fridge, "Gentle Annie" clothes washer, and dryer (which as I recall was NZ$400 and has the best thermistor-in-exhaust detection of clothes dryness levels I've ever used).

That's 24 years ago.

The lawnmower and vacuum are departed, but I'm still using the whiteware.

My previous car here in NZ was a 1997 Subaru Grandwagon (early Outback) which I sold in 2019, at age 22, and only because I thought I was moving to the USA for 5 or 10 years (COVID changed that). When I returned to NZ I bought a 2008 Outback which is now 16 years old. I've had that over 4 years, and I don't know any reason that I won't still be using it in another ten years when it is 26 years old.

My main motorcycle is a BMW R1100RT, bought new on October 1 1995. That will soon be 29 years old and has given very little trouble. Mostly just the usual servicing, tyres, and a battery every 7 or 8 years. I've had to replace the fuel pump and lines (it was made for leaded fuel!) and the Hall-effect crankshaft position sensor failed -- or actually it was the insulation on the wires to it in the hot part of the engine disintegrating, letting the wires short. For sure the maintenance so far has been much cheaper than buying a new one.

I believe there are still things made with just as good quality as at any time in the past (better!) -- you just have to choose to buy them, possibly paying a little more.

On the other hand, the "cheap crap" is often perfectly usable for light or infrequent duty and having it is preferable to having nothing.

[BravoV]

You must have a realistic view, that most Western countries, especially in the 5 eyes ones, the population is being brainwashed for decades. Like .. China bad, ccp evil, china steals, china eats their own babies, china will invade and rape your mom/wife/daughter and etc.   

These it self, after such long exposures, must have long term effects, at least for certain amount of population. (not all)

Some are even emotionally and physically being prepared to be sacrificed and act as a nuke blast shield for the GREAT AMERICA  , should a WW3 nuke war with China, for example like "some" Ozzies in Australia, yep, I heard that from them my self. 

Look at German your self, is being actively prepared to be the next nuke blast shield from Russia to protect the US. Similar to the scheme for China.

Ever wonder what if , make a situation that Russia just nuke the US directly if a war erupted, skipping the Europe instead of having to to go "thru" Europe, ever thought about that ?

[Halcyon]

ccp evil, china steals

Not exactly "brainwashing" if it's demonstrably true.

I will clarify, that the Chinese population, is really no different to any other. The people, except for a small percentage, are decent, ethical people. You'll be hard pressed to find anyone disagreeing with that.

When people refer to "China" in these types of contexts, it usually refers to the CCP. They are textbook gaslighters. Their beef is, the western world sees right through their nonsense.

[Andy Chee]

Japan bashing was so widespread

Doc Brown: Unbelievable that this little piece of junk could be such a big problem. No wonder this circuit failed. It says "Made in Japan".
Marty McFly: What do you mean, Doc? All the best stuff is made in Japan.

- Back to the Future Part 3

[soldar]

I too have noticed a distinct anti-East bias in the forum.  I have seen the word "ch*nky" used in several posts with no mention of it by others.  These people know it is offensive as it is used in that context - as a racial slur.

Not only regular posters but also mods and it has made me abandon the forum for months or years at a time. I do not come to forums to argue and when I do not feel comfortable I just leave.

It is a common thing for any group to find security in belittling other groups. Racism, sexism, nationalism, religionism, all have the same cause.

If one of your own group is a thief you say "Fred is a thief" but if someone of the other group is a thief you say "they are all thieves".

A contaminated food scandal in China reinforces our prejudice against China. A contaminated food scandal in Spain does not trigger any similar reaction against Spain and yet it happens just the same.

If their government spies it is because they are bad but if our government does the same thing except more and worse then it is because they are defending all that is good and holy against the bad guys. They make us do it.

Wise people do not judge; they seek to understand.  — Wei Wu Wei

But it is much easier to judge and condemn.

We are better than them and we know this because we all say so. 

= = = = = = =

https://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/poem/poems_wethey.htm

Father, Mother, and Me
    Sister and Auntie say
All the people like us are We,
    And every one else is They.
And They live over the sea,
    While We live over the way,
But - would you believe it?
                - They look upon We
    As only a sort of They!

All good people agree,
    And all good people say,
All nice people, like Us, are We
    And every one else is They:
But if you cross over the sea,
    Instead of over the way,
You may end by (think of it!)
                          looking on We
    As only a sort of They!

Rudyard Kipling

= = = = = = =

People who have never been to some country that I know well are the most certain in their judgment and telling me how things really are over there.  The less they know the more certain they are.

People need to travel more, understand more, judge less and preach by example.

I better go crawl back into my hole now.

[soldar]

It might as well be that the Chinese government is highly nationalistic, one effect of which is that foreigners don't have the same rights in the legal system, which in turn allows the scammers scamming foreigners to flourish, where in other countries, the legal system would put a stop to that.

Though, if you look at, say, the repeated cooking oil scandals in China, this obviously doesn't affect only foreigners. Rather, you are just seeing the effects of an authoritarian government. Really, a lot of the not so great things you see coming from China can be attributed to their government and how it hurts its own people in order to stay in power.

This makes zero sense to me.

Where do you get that "foreigners don't have the same rights in the legal system"?

How do you explain it when a similar food scandal happens in Europe?  We have them in Spain every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

[zilp]

A contaminated food scandal in China reinforces our prejudice against China. A contaminated food scandal in Spain does not trigger any similar reaction against Spain and yet it happens just the same.

First: No, "a contaminated food scandal in China" doesn't reinforce anything, that's just a straw man that you made up.

Second: Oh, does it?

Also, I take it that the Spanish government also suppresses reporting on food scandals, then? Because it obviously is all the same, and there is no press freedom in Spain, either?

If their government spies it is because they are bad but if our government does the same thing except more and worse then it is because they are defending all that is good and holy against the bad guys. They make us do it.

You did notice that you are just making shit up, right?

You are just making up that "we" are fine with "our" governments spying. I am not. There is zero inconsistency there, other than what you invented.

Also, I'd like to see your evidence that the spying by "western" governments is in fact "more and worse" than what the chinese government does to its citizens.

Wise people do not judge; they seek to understand.  — Wei Wu Wei

But it is much easier to judge and condemn.

We are better than them and we know this because we all say so. 

Have you considered that there might be other explanation for people disagreeing with you, besides them not seeking to understand, and that people may have determined that something is better than something else based on evidence, not based on "we all say so"?

People who have never been to some country that I know well are the most certain in their judgment and telling me how things really are over there.  The less they know the more certain they are.

OK. So, tell us, what was your experience in China publishing a book about the Tiananmen Square massacre? What was your experience in China  organizing a protest in support of Uyghurs and against their treatment in the "vocational education and training centers"? What was your experience trying to leave your home in Shanghai during the Covid lockdowns of 2022?

Seriously, I am genuinely curious what your experiences were trying to exercise anything resembling civic rights as they generally exist in "western" countries.

What I am not interested in, though, is your experiences traveling in the country, obeying the government, and meeting people. Noone is disputing that there are tons of decent people in China, as there are anywhere on the planet, and it is completely uninteresting that you are not mistreated if you don't try to exercise freedoms. There were decent people in Hitler's Germany and in Franco's Spain, and if you were of some acceptable ethnicity and agreed with everything the government said, you could have had a good time in both those dictatorships. That doesn't mean that everything was fine under those governments, nor that things were just as fine a anywhere else on the planet. Because while some people were having a good time, a few million other citizens were also being industrially slaughtered in Germany, a thing that was in fact not going on in other countries where people were having a good time.

[magic]

This guy is a known China fanboy.

It's funny that you mentioned Covid, though, because "we" learned a trick or two from China in those days

[zilp]

This guy is a known China fanboy.

Really, it sounds more like CCP fanboy? I mean, "China fanboy" can mean a lot of things, some of which I might even be on board with, but that is quite different from being a supporter of an authoritarian government, and especially one that you yourself don't have to live under.

It's funny that you mentioned Covid, though, because "we" learned a trick or two from China in those days

Such as?

[snarkysparky]

The bad country that is manufacturing cheaper than us and taking our jobs is a primary tool to agitate and distract the masses.

How about feeling sorry for those poor suckers in the other country that are working too hard to build us things for the money they receive.

[tom66]

China bashing in the 2020s reminds me of Japan bashing in the 1970s.

Japan bashing was so widespread, that an urban legend circulated that the Japanese re-named a city “Usa” such that they could label their products Made in USA.

Which of course is false. The Japanese town of Usa actually existed prior to WW2, and no customs agency worth its salt would allow paperwork without the full geographical origin: Usa, Japan.

My favourite example of Japan bashing and how time changes...

https://youtu.be/watch?v=7VxNY2WsJn0&t=440s

[coppercone2]

I feel like its a troll because I basically told people how to make the pen drill into a worth while purchase with swiss drills and why the hammer mechanism on the micro screw driver might be useful. if anything its china fixing

I even fucking said that its still useful despite the chuck wobble I got in my pen drill its usable for drilling holes in steel, and despite the fact that the mechanical clutch is fragile on the driver, I bought another one after breaking the first once because the mechanisms are very precise and I trust it not to destroy threads with the mechanical torque limiter.... you need to treat it like a dial indicator but I do not expect a "torque adjustment" tool to require any less then this.... i.e. if you drop a torque wrench your in trouble. I am not some idiot that thinks they can actually manage to make a drop proof micro sized motor operated torque tool for anywhere near their cost.

I like the pen tools. No one but china seems to make any. its just their incomplete