Author Topic: can you recommend a good low cost 3d printer?  (Read 21787 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Online janoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3859
  • Country: de
Re: can you recommend a good low cost 3d printer?
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2015, 09:09:51 pm »
Prusa I3 and its derivatives tend to have two main issues:

- The gantry mounting is incredibly flimsy and it is hard to get and to maintain the pieces perpendicular to each other. That's why this I3v has the extra rear support.

- Stability problems - avoid wooden Prusas (and other wooden printers). Wood has the bad habit to take on moisture over time, to dry irregularly and it will twist and warp, ruining the alignment of the machine. I quite don't get the point of using the aluminium extrusion for the rails on this printer but using plywood for the structural elements. That's just silly - those rails are going to be only heavier and more expensive than the usual precision rods and you keep all the alignment and warping problems of the wooden Prusas ... The smoother movement thanks to the v-groove is pointless when your machine is shaking apart because the wood cannot provide the sufficient rigidity over time with the fast extruder movements.

There are kits from plastic, those are a little better, but they tend to flex quite a bit - the rigidity just isn't there. That's why the Mendel90 that I have is made from Dibond - an aluminium plastic composite, about as strong as 3mm sheet aluminium, but lighter.

The rest is a standard RepRap fare - bed leveling can be a PITA, the Z screws on the sides are actually not driving the gantry when going down (it only freely rests on two brass nuts), so unless everything is perfectly aligned it will be twisting and jumping because of the heavy motor being on only one side and no counterweight, unless you are careful about protecting the motor wires they will break over time, etc. etc. If you have any machining experience, I will guarantee you will cringe quite a few times when seeing some of the design "features" of these printers :) They work, but be prepared for some "babysitting" and repairs here and there.

If I was you, I would pay a little more and get a Prusa version made out of metal or at least some solid plastic. The wood is just not worth the hassle longterm.

This is Mendel90: http://reprap.org/wiki/Mendel90
Nophead is a very nice guy, whenever I had any issues, he or his wife came back to me within a day.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2015, 09:29:36 pm by janoc »
 

Offline zapta

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6281
  • Country: us
Re: can you recommend a good low cost 3d printer?
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2015, 09:23:47 pm »
I have a prusa i3v for six months now and I love it. That's my first 3d printer. If I will upgrade it will be to a closed chamber dual extruder such as one of the Forge units.
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 27667
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: can you recommend a good low cost 3d printer?
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2015, 11:14:15 pm »
Fundamental point: any printer you can buy will use a very limited range of materials. If those materials don't meet any one of your requirements (and they probably won't!), you are stuffed.

Best solution is to get a fab house (e.g. shapeways, but there are many many others) to make this project out of nylon, that project out of brass, the other project out of paper.
I'm just looking for the standard PLA or ABS
There are many 3D printing services. Better send your design to them and have it printed for a small price than invest in a printer which isn't going to serve you at all.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online janoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3859
  • Country: de
Re: can you recommend a good low cost 3d printer?
« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2015, 01:11:41 pm »
There are many 3D printing services. Better send your design to them and have it printed for a small price than invest in a printer which isn't going to serve you at all.

How can you know that it isn't going to serve him at all? I know a lot of people who are completely happy with their RepRaps, Ultimakers and what not. The key is to know what you are buying, what are you going to use it for and be prepared for it.

BTW, services like Shapeways or Sculpteo are not really cheaper, unless you have a hackerspace or some shop with a 3D printer around a corner - good luck to find one unless you live in a large city and often not even there.

If you plan on printing more than a few parts a year, your own printer will probably pay for itself quickly, not to mention the much quicker turn-around time - important for prototypes. E.g. I have ordered a small part in ABS that I needed to calibrate my own printer - 64x34x15 mm from Sculpteo, it cost me around 12€ delivered and took two weeks to get here. So if you are making more than about 50 of such pieces a year, you can afford a $500 printer too already. And the prices go up quickly for larger parts.

Of course, if you want to print in "exotic" materials like metal or wood, require high precision or complicated shapes, then the services are likely your only option, but that is a different story.



 

Offline Corporate666

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2010
  • Country: us
  • Remember, you are unique, just like everybody else
Re: can you recommend a good low cost 3d printer?
« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2015, 09:34:51 pm »
If you plan on printing more than a few parts a year, your own printer will probably pay for itself quickly, not to mention the much quicker turn-around time - important for prototypes. E.g. I have ordered a small part in ABS that I needed to calibrate my own printer - 64x34x15 mm from Sculpteo, it cost me around 12€ delivered and took two weeks to get here. So if you are making more than about 50 of such pieces a year, you can afford a $500 printer too already. And the prices go up quickly for larger parts.


I think you need to print quite a lot of parts before you are saving money doing it yourself... quite a lot of parts indeed.

I looked at my last invoice from Sculpteo... two parts, about the size of a small egg.  I paid around $15/ea.  I ordered on September 3rd, they were shipped on September 6th by UPS Express which arrived in 2-3 days from France to the USA - and I paid $6.50 for shipping.  My total bill was $37.12

The parts are infinitely better quality than any hobbyist 3D printer.  They are dimensionally accurate, the curved surfaces are smooth as silk.  They have #2-56 holes in them which came out great from the printer.  They are virtually perfect copies of what I see on my screen in Solidworks.

Comparing hobbyist printers, I can go on MakeXYZ and pay $0.25 per CC... let's say that is 5 times the price of material.. you'd need to print an awful lot to cover the expense of your own machine (cost of machine, shipping, electricity to run it, consumables, breakdowns and spare parts, etc).  Not to mention the cost of bad prints and the value of my time, and the learning curve of using the machine.

It's not always the most popular person who gets the job done.
 

Online janoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3859
  • Country: de
Re: can you recommend a good low cost 3d printer?
« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2015, 07:12:56 pm »
I think you need to print quite a lot of parts before you are saving money doing it yourself... quite a lot of parts indeed.

I looked at my last invoice from Sculpteo... two parts, about the size of a small egg.  I paid around $15/ea.  I ordered on September 3rd, they were shipped on September 6th by UPS Express which arrived in 2-3 days from France to the USA - and I paid $6.50 for shipping.  My total bill was $37.12

The parts are infinitely better quality than any hobbyist 3D printer.  They are dimensionally accurate, the curved surfaces are smooth as silk.  They have #2-56 holes in them which came out great from the printer.  They are virtually perfect copies of what I see on my screen in Solidworks.

That is not really a fair comparison, IMO - Sculpteo uses professional machines using the SLS technology, likely from Stratasys (new owners of Makerbot, btw) that cost somewhere around 100k and upwards. So no wonder the quality is a bit elsewhere than the cheap FDM printers can achieve.

How many of those parts do you order annually on average? Also, the 3 days lead time is very short, that was not my experience with them at all. You have most likely got lucky there.

Comparing hobbyist printers, I can go on MakeXYZ and pay $0.25 per CC... let's say that is 5 times the price of material.. you'd need to print an awful lot to cover the expense of your own machine.

Lucky you. This is not the case in the most of Europe. For me Sculpteo is the cheapest available and is local, most others are abroad and shipping to Europe can cost a bloody murder (especially UPS/DHL/Fedex).

I am not close enough to commute to the few hackerspaces in Paris (gas or train cost quite a bit more than in the US here) and we don't have anything like that anywhere near. And I am not living out in the woods somewhere, Compiegne is a reasonably sized town.

The cheapest I have seen was going to the FabLab of the local uni (not open to public, only to the students) and there it costs 0.20EUR/gram (pricing by volume is nonsense, because it depends on the fill rate  - most larger objects contain a lot of "air"). That is basically the cost of the filament + some wear of the machine, the rest (electricity, rent, machines themselves) is subsidized by the Uni or done by the students themselves. So if you have a commercial service nearby that can do it at those rates, excellent, but that is far from being the rule.

If your only option are services like Sculpteo and not services that do it basically for the price of the material + salary of a tech loading the filament and removing finished prints, the printer will be quickly cheaper if you are printing a lot of parts. Electricity is mostly a non-issue, the printer doesn't run that long at a time. It certainly consumes less than a PC or a modern large TV. Mine is powered from a way oversized 500W ATX PSU, so the electricity cost per part is perhaps few cents tops. Bad prints happen, but on a reasonable machine they are fairly rare. Repairs and maintenance - depends on the machine, that is why I was recommending RepRap-based designs, because the parts are cheap and widely available should anything break. And well, learning curve - certainly, but people buying these hobby-grade machines most often don't count that, because learning is one of their goals. I can certainly understand the appeal of not having to deal with that, then you are better off using a service.

Anyway, I have already said that for me the main reason to get a printer wasn't really the financial aspect. I am certainly not making that many parts, it is more a toy and hobby for me, same as people buying multimeters and scopes for hobby work.





 

Offline veryevil

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 221
  • Country: gb
Re: can you recommend a good low cost 3d printer?
« Reply #31 on: April 13, 2015, 07:34:11 pm »
hey, I've got an Ormerod 2. i love it. took a lot of building but works great.

https://reprappro.com/shop/reprap-kits/ormerod-2-kit/

Full kit including printed parts £405+vat

 

Online janoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3859
  • Country: de
Re: can you recommend a good low cost 3d printer?
« Reply #32 on: April 15, 2015, 11:51:27 am »
hey, I've got an Ormerod 2. i love it. took a lot of building but works great.

https://reprappro.com/shop/reprap-kits/ormerod-2-kit/

Full kit including printed parts £405+vat


How is the alignment and wear and tear of the X and Z axes?

I was looking at these machines, but when I saw that the X axis is supported only on one side using a 3D printed part, with the relatively heavy extruder moving back and forth, I have changed my mind. This type of design is really asking for problems with the X axis starting to "droop" on one side once the plastic wears out a bit.

 


Offline wemme

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 63
Re: can you recommend a good low cost 3d printer?
« Reply #34 on: April 16, 2015, 05:48:41 am »
Hobby king have just announced a new 3d printer.
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__76148__Turnigy_Fabrikator_3D_Printer_UK_Plug_.html
they are getting stock still to their local distribution points but at the moment is available from their international warehouse.

By the way cheap and good don't usually go together. you normally pay for what you get.

Regards
Bart
 

Offline veryevil

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 221
  • Country: gb
Re: can you recommend a good low cost 3d printer?
« Reply #35 on: April 16, 2015, 07:41:04 pm »
The X axis is very strong. i had a bit of an issue during build with mounting the z axis (which has the x axis on) as i damaged the bracket. I did just print another but its very strong and the new x axis rib is stronger and lighter than mine.

hey, I've got an Ormerod 2. i love it. took a lot of building but works great.

https://reprappro.com/shop/reprap-kits/ormerod-2-kit/

Full kit including printed parts £405+vat


How is the alignment and wear and tear of the X and Z axes?

I was looking at these machines, but when I saw that the X axis is supported only on one side using a 3D printed part, with the relatively heavy extruder moving back and forth, I have changed my mind. This type of design is really asking for problems with the X axis starting to "droop" on one side once the plastic wears out a bit.
 

Offline cwalex

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 299
  • Country: au
Re: can you recommend a good low cost 3d printer?
« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2015, 03:02:32 pm »
Check out the Rapide-3d printer.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/rapide-lite-affordable-high-resolution-3d-printer/x/6213280

It is a completed campaign, the printers are shipping and you can just order one and have it shipped now. There are lots of options and models but they all look awesome. i bought one and have received the semi assembled kit option. I have not had the time to assemble it though, also this is my first 3D printer :)

It is all aluminium construction and from the quick look I had of what came in the box I'm seriously impressed at the quality of the parts. It is anodised and feels really rigid and strong. They actually released a video of 2 printers operating while someone was standing on top of them.

They are reasonably priced, the model I bought is the lite 200. It is now going for $999 with free shipping. I'll report back when I have it assembled and tested if anyone is interested.

Here is the promotion video if you want to see it in operation.

Cheers,

Alex
 

Offline zapta

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6281
  • Country: us
Re: can you recommend a good low cost 3d printer?
« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2015, 03:27:56 pm »
Picking a 3D printer is hard. So many choices.
 

Online janoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3859
  • Country: de
Re: can you recommend a good low cost 3d printer?
« Reply #38 on: April 17, 2015, 08:42:12 pm »
Check out the Rapide-3d printer.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/rapide-lite-affordable-high-resolution-3d-printer/x/6213280


Honestly, picking an unproven design from Indiegogo or Kickstarter because it "looks awesome" is probably the worst thing you can do if you want to have a working machine. Apart from the usual Indiegogo/Kickstarter woes with projects failing/non-delivering/being scams/etc. (I am glad to hear that wasn't the case here!), you are basically a beta tester for a machine that  nobody else has.

If something goes wrong, where do you get help? The manufacturer with no track record could disappear tomorrow, where do you get spare parts for your machine should anything break? That machine isn't using "standard" RepRap parts which are widely available - mainly the hot end and extruder. If the extruder breaks or clogs (a not so uncommon issue on many printers), you may face a complicated rework to adapt another design for it or have an awesome looking and very expensive paperweight on your desk ...

A good example of a crowd funded project like this going wrong was the MakiBox - ultra cheap, late to deliver, the delivered printers had many many problems and finally the company has folded, leaving their customers stranded with unusable machines. Even big companies like Makerbot are not immune to gaffes of this type, unfortunately - just google the stories about their new "smart extruders".

Now, don't get me wrong, I am not bashing this machine - I do hope it will work well and be reliable for you. However, a more prudent way to buy it would have been to wait until there are some independent reviews around (e.g. on forums.reprap.org) from someone who has actually  used it, instead of only the manufacturer's videos ...




« Last Edit: April 17, 2015, 08:44:09 pm by janoc »
 

Offline cwalex

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 299
  • Country: au
Re: can you recommend a good low cost 3d printer?
« Reply #39 on: April 18, 2015, 09:36:11 am »
Hi janoc,

I'm not recommending anyone choose anything because it "looks awesome". I just wanted to mention this printer as an option since I don't think there exists anything comparable to this printer in the sub $1000 price range.

I agree with you about most of your points though. I will find out if it works as well as they claim in due course and I can report back with my experience if anyone is interested.

There is a forum here if anyone wants to read what people who actually have these printers are talking about.

http://www.print3dforum.com/forumdisplay.php/7-Rapide-Lite

As far as I know they have followed through with all of the promises they made and then some unlike many crowdfunding campaigns and from the reading I have been doing, I don't remember reading any reports of problems with the machines.

Anyway, the specs are good and the build quality appears to be great so I'm mentioning it for the OP to consider if they want to.
 

Offline Mechanical Menace

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1288
  • Country: gb
Re: can you recommend a good low cost 3d printer?
« Reply #40 on: April 18, 2015, 09:55:03 am »
If you have the time, inclination, and skills or time to learn them I'd roll my own if I was you. Well apart from the controller and stepper driver board and maybe the hotend/whole extruder.

Bit of a tip if you do take that route, talk to local sign makers if you feel the need to get some parts laser cut. The guys I asked ended up doing it for free.
Second sexiest ugly bloke on the forum.
"Don't believe every quote you read on the internet, because I totally didn't say that."
~Albert Einstein
 

Online janoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3859
  • Country: de
Re: can you recommend a good low cost 3d printer?
« Reply #41 on: April 18, 2015, 12:43:00 pm »
Hi janoc,

I'm not recommending anyone choose anything because it "looks awesome". I just wanted to mention this printer as an option since I don't think there exists anything comparable to this printer in the sub $1000 price range.

I think there are quite a few - from what I have seen, that machine is basically a Prusa 3 derived design. You can get those for around 800 euro as kits,  assembled for slightly more. Perhaps not so schmick looking, but certainly equally capable. The Mendel90 I have was around 800 euro delivered, including shipping from UK. You can find even cheaper Prusas than that, if you are willing to make compromises.

Don't get too excited by the claimed 50um resolution - that is pretty much the theoretical resolution of the steppers, the real resolution will be quite a bit less than that due to tolerances and the inevitable backlash. You can expect a 100um on a well adjusted machine of this type, if you are really really lucky perhaps a bit better. Also, keep in mind that the diameter of the extruder nozzle is 0.3-0.4mm typically, so having 50um positioning accuracy is of limited utility when you are laying down a string of plastic 300um wide ...

What I like is what looks like fully aluminium chassis, so it has potential for decent rigidity and stability, but that is certainly not an unique feature.


I agree with you about most of your points though. I will find out if it works as well as they claim in due course and I can report back with my experience if anyone is interested.

I am interested to hear about your experiences.

As far as I know they have followed through with all of the promises they made and then some unlike many crowdfunding campaigns and from the reading I have been doing, I don't remember reading any reports of problems with the machines.

That is certainly a positive news. Most 3D printer campaigns on KS or IGG are a hopeless failure from the get go because of completely bogus business model and unrealistic/naive expectations.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2015, 12:45:18 pm by janoc »
 

Online janoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3859
  • Country: de
Re: can you recommend a good low cost 3d printer?
« Reply #42 on: April 18, 2015, 12:50:07 pm »
If you have the time, inclination, and skills or time to learn them I'd roll my own if I was you. Well apart from the controller and stepper driver board and maybe the hotend/whole extruder.

Bit of a tip if you do take that route, talk to local sign makers if you feel the need to get some parts laser cut. The guys I asked ended up doing it for free.

Unless you have a source of really cheap parts (e.g. Nema motors, belts, pulleys, etc.  salvaged from somewhere) and a well equipped machine shop for cutting the metal/plastic parts, I wouldn't bother. You will not save anything by not buying a decent part kit. The kit vendors buy the parts in bulk, allowing them to have lower prices than when you buy the pieces yourself on eBay or elsewhere. And you have no guarantee that the separately acquired parts will actually work together. The only thing more that you will learn by not buying the kit is part sourcing and the resulting aggravation when you are still missing a screw or something doesn't fit right.



 

Offline Mechanical Menace

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1288
  • Country: gb
Re: can you recommend a good low cost 3d printer?
« Reply #43 on: April 18, 2015, 01:37:51 pm »
If you have the time, inclination, and skills or time to learn them I'd roll my own if I was you. Well apart from the controller and stepper driver board and maybe the hotend/whole extruder.

Unless you have a source of really cheap parts (e.g. Nema motors, belts, pulleys, etc.  salvaged from somewhere) and a well equipped machine shop for cutting the metal/plastic parts, I wouldn't bother.

I should of made it clear I meant the controller kits with the motors included. And when it comes to the frame and mechanical construction most of the parts can be easily made with hand tools if you measure carefully. TBH even the hotend can be made with hand tools but not necessarily easily.

I also avoid belts like the plague. My bot works just fine with threaded rod as lead screws. Investing in a tap and making my own lead screw nuts out of brass, aluminium, or whatever off cut of engineering plastic I can get my hands on at the time seems to have avoided a lot of problems and money lol
Second sexiest ugly bloke on the forum.
"Don't believe every quote you read on the internet, because I totally didn't say that."
~Albert Einstein
 

Offline cwalex

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 299
  • Country: au
Re: can you recommend a good low cost 3d printer?
« Reply #44 on: April 19, 2015, 01:01:36 pm »
There are some really inexpensive kits available for a few of the reprap variants.

This one is a kit made from acrylic.
Prusa i3 complete kit with 2 free 1KG spools of filament and free shipping for $315USD. Add another $40 for the automatic bed levelling upgrade.
https://www.3dprintersonlinestore.com/diy-kit/migbot-prusa-i3-kit

I had a look at some reviews and build tutorials for this printer kit out of curiosity. It seems like the biggest complaint is about the instructions not being very clear and the assembly is quite time consuming. Incredibly cheap though.

Those delta printers look really funky too :)
 

Offline cwalex

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 299
  • Country: au
Re: can you recommend a good low cost 3d printer?
« Reply #45 on: April 19, 2015, 02:52:52 pm »
I took a few photos of the parts that come in the Rapide3d printer boxes. This is the lite200 model that sells for $799 with free shipping. I used my mobile phone to take the photos and I'm a pretty lousy photographer. I did a decent enough job that you can see how nice the machining and finish is. If the printer is good I may stock a few different models and sell them in my shop. I enquired with Ethan the CEO of Rapide3D, he said they intend to supply printers to resellers.

https://imgur.com/a/Q61Sa

I have the day off this Thursday so I'll use that time to assemble and test the printer. I'll post my experience with it in this thread if the OP doesn't mind otherwise I might make a separate thread.

Cheers,

Alex
 

Offline Sigmoid

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 488
  • Country: us
Re: can you recommend a good low cost 3d printer?
« Reply #46 on: April 20, 2015, 08:08:54 pm »
I'm surprised nobody has suggested the Printrbot Simple. :) It's really awesome, and quite extensible, and very cheap.
 

Online janoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3859
  • Country: de
Re: can you recommend a good low cost 3d printer?
« Reply #47 on: April 20, 2015, 09:54:38 pm »
I took a few photos of the parts that come in the Rapide3d printer boxes. This is the lite200 model that sells for $799 with free shipping. I used my mobile phone to take the photos and I'm a pretty lousy photographer. I did a decent enough job that you can see how nice the machining and finish is. If the printer is good I may stock a few different models and sell them in my shop. I enquired with Ethan the CEO of Rapide3D, he said they intend to supply printers to resellers.

https://imgur.com/a/Q61Sa

I have a quite hard time to believe that they are selling this model for just $800 with all those thick machined aluminium parts and proper leadscrews (and not simple tapped rods). It certainly looks great. My suspicion is that they are selling this thing at cost or even at loss - just the machining for each of these machines would normally cost a few hundred bucks.


 

Offline sacherjj

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 993
  • Country: us
 

Offline revilo951

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 6
Re: can you recommend a good low cost 3d printer?
« Reply #49 on: April 23, 2015, 04:55:27 am »
Maybe check out Type A Machines?

Their support is pretty good, prices OK. The machines work well enough (I don't have experience with any other models to be able to compare).
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf