Brainstorming the Boxes URGENT REQUEST

[TerraHertz]

So this is sort of 'thinking outside the box', about how to buy 500 heavy duty cardbaord boxes, in Sacramento USA, asap.

Background: Late 2021 I ebay-bought several thousand service manuals, stacked in a storage unit near Sacramento USA. Info: http://everist.org/dm/ (needs updating)


 
The unit, which is 10' by 15' is all full like that.


The volume of the raw pile is about 2/3 the volume of a 20' shipping container. And I'm trying to get them to Sydney Australia. This is hard.

Status: I have a shipping quote, currently valid till 22nd Jan. That's for providing a container onsite to be loaded, then transporting it to Sydney.

_Loading_ it, that's my problem. Should be possible right, just find some boxes and a crew to pack the manuals in them, and stack in the container. Ha ha ha...

Funny thing is, I thought buying suitable boxes would be relatively easy. For instance here's a company with a huge range of boxes: https://www.uline.com/BL_418/275-Lb-Test-Double-Wall-Boxes

What does 'suitable' mean?



This is a typical manual.

Because of the volume, I need boxes that will pack the manuals efficiently (or they won't fit), AND strong enough to allow box stacking to the container ceiling. Five layers deep. Books are heavy!
The container will go by truck and sea, and the boxes have to stand up to shipping motion.
Plus I will keep the boxes for storage. So the cardboard should be the strong '3 layer' type, 1/4" thick.

Most of the manuals have a height of 11.8". And they must be stacked mostly flat in the boxes.
So one of the box base internal dimensions should be 12". Critical to achieving space efficiency.

The other base dimension can be 15" to 22" internal. Allows for outlier large manuals, and some placed upright to fill spare space.
18" is optimal; it allows two stacks of a common smaller size manual. Also results in a good fit to the shipping container width. (2414mm. Fits 5 boxes, final gap = 64mm)
22" allows two stacks of typical large manuals. But also fits the container poorly (4 boxes, 128 mm gap) and is getting into 'heavy to lift' range.

The box height should be in the range 18" to 20". The ideal is to get as many manuals in a box as possible without ending up with a box too heavy to lift, or crushing items at the bottom, while still fitting well in the internal height of a shipping container. (2698mm)
There's often going to be a bit of empty space at the top inside each box (due to thick manuals), and bigger boxes minimize that percentage loss of total space. Often can pad with thinner manuals, but they won't always be to hand.
Plus for heavy duty boxes the top and bottom flaps thickness is significant; 1/4" x 4, an inch.

  An internal box height of 20", with 1/4" walls, gives an external taped height of 21" (533.4mm.)
  shipping container internal H = 2698mm. Stacking boxes 5 deep leaves just 1.25" gap at the ceiling. Close!

This gives desired box internal dimensions (same order as the ULine online table):
  Length        Width    Height
  15" to 22"    12"      18" to 20"
  Pref 18"                  Pref 19.5". NO GREATER than 20".

And this, btw, is much like a typical 'house moving box'.
The base is a rectangle approx 1 to 1.5+ ratio, and the height is at least 18".

Roughly how many boxes?
A 20' container internal length is 5898mm. A 12" box internal width plus walls = 318mm.
Fitting 18 rows of boxes. Times 5 per row = 90 boxes per layer. Times 5 layers = 450 boxes.
Say 500 boxes, to allow spares, some used flat as gap fillers, and maybe some for manuals that don't fit in the container and have to be shipped separately.


But sadly and mysteriously ULine have *nothing* like that. Anything in their stock list with something like the desired base dimensions will also have too small a height.


So I'm asking the Net. Does anyone know of a supplier of boxes on the US west coast, with a stock of suitable solid cardboard boxes close to that size? Who could deliver to Roseville CA this week or early next?

Apologies if I don't reply for a while. Bit busy atm.

So far others have suggested:
  Home Depot, Lowes, and U-Haul.
  Grainger (Grainger Industrial)  may have more selection than Uline... whether they have stock might be another issue.
  McMaster-Carr or Global Industrial.

[thm_w]

I don't know if I would bother with double wall: https://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/S-4898/Corrugated-Boxes-200-Test/18-x-12-x-18-Corrugated-Boxes
But I guess if it is stacked high thats an issue, without using strong filler in the boxes.

Standard moving boxes seem to be 18x18x16 or 18x18x24
https://www.uhaul.com/MovingSupplies/Boxes/Standard-Sized-Moving-Boxes/Medium-Moving-Box/?id=2793

[edavid]

A simple solution is to use standard 16x12x12 book boxes and stack them 7 or 8 high (are you sure your container will be a high cube type?).
If you fill the boxes completely, they won't crush.
Obviously you should stand the binders on end to help with that.

You can buy these boxes readily from local Lowe's stores, in 2 strengths:

https://www.lowes.com/pd/16-in-W-x-12-in-H-x-12-in-D-moving-box-Classic-Small-Cardboard-Moving-Boxes-with-Handle-Holes/3265367
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Lowe-s-16-in-W-x-12-in-H-x-12-in-D-Moving-Box-Classic-Small-Heavy-Duty-Cardboard-Moving-Boxes/50285945

[TerraHertz]

I don't know if I would bother with double wall: https://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/S-4898/Corrugated-Boxes-200-Test/18-x-12-x-18-Corrugated-Boxes

That's pretty good. Thanks. I didn't look through their 'thin cardboard' lists due to rejecting 'thin'. But given my poor range of choices, that's worth considering.  Also, low cost is good.  "200 lb" vs "275 lb" for the touger cardboard. Not a huge difference.

>But I guess if it is stacked high thats an issue, without using strong filler in the boxes.

There's not going to be any filler but the books. Logistics of loading...
Maybe I can live with some crushing of lower boxes.

Standard moving boxes seem to be 18x18x16 or 18x18x24
https://www.uhaul.com/MovingSupplies/Boxes/Standard-Sized-Moving-Boxes/Medium-Moving-Box/?id=2793

Yeah, but that "not 12" dimension really messes things up. I've packed a few boxes of big manuals before, and that side gap is a pain to futz around trying to find things to fit. So many manuals have to be placed upright in the gap, and big ring binders don't transport well like that. The rings tend to pop open.

[TerraHertz]

A simple solution is to use standard 16x12x12 book boxes and stack them 7 or 8 high

Works badly, because so many manuals are 3"+ thick, so packing flat in a 12" high box wastes a lot of space.


 

(are you sure your container will be a high cube type?)

Well spotted. No, it won't be. That was my goof.
But using 18" high thin-wall boxes still works for a standard 20' container, which is 2380mm high inside. Phew.

If you fill the boxes completely, they won't crush.

Ringbinders, often not tightly filled. Yeah, they'll crush given enough force.

Obviously you should stand the binders on end to help with that.

Then with trucking vibration etc, the rings pop open and chew the pages.


Currently trying to lease a 2nd small storage unit near the main one, to hold 4 bales of box flats for a week.
5' by 10' should do. Cost not too bad. But being overseas I can't take the lease myself, so have to get a US friend to do it.
Can't order the boxes delivered till the unit is in hand....

[edavid]

A simple solution is to use standard 16x12x12 book boxes and stack them 7 or 8 high

Works badly, because so many manuals are 3"+ thick, so packing flat in a 12" high box wastes a lot of space.

Don't pack them flat, or turn the boxes so the long dimension is vertical.

If you fill the boxes completely, they won't crush.

Ringbinders, often not tightly filled. Yeah, they'll crush given enough force.

Obviously you should stand the binders on end to help with that.

Then with trucking vibration etc, the rings pop open and chew the pages.

I have shipped hundreds of HP binders cross country in book boxes stacked 8 high, did not have either problem.

Currently trying to lease a 2nd small storage unit near the main one, to hold 4 bales of box flats for a week.
5' by 10' should do. Cost not too bad. But being overseas I can't take the lease myself, so have to get a US friend to do it.
Can't order the boxes delivered till the unit is in hand....

That's why you should buy the boxes from Lowe's as you need them.

[nctnico]

I second the suggestion for book boxes. Regular boxes will contain too many manuals and thus become too heavy to handle.

However, why use boxes in the first place? Why not put the manuals in plastic bags to form a bundle which can then be stacked into the container? This gives you maximum usage of the container, it is quicker to pack than having to unfold & puzzle manuals into a box AND plastic bags have the advantage that they are not prone to investation / cross contamination by (paper eating) silver fish. I'm pretty sure a part of those manuals are invested by silver fish already.

It may seem odd but whatever box your are going to buy, it will not hold the weight of 5 layers of boxes with books stacked on top so you will get movement during transport due to the box being crushed. A bunde which is already compacted, won't move.

[TerraHertz]

Oh great. Here's an example of the kind of sh*t this project encounters.
So I was going to order the 500 ULINE S-4898 boxes today. To be delivered on Friday (in USA) to the storage site in Roseville CA. They are transported on 4 pallets, 48" x 40". Each pallet has 5 bundles of 25 boxes.
The storage unit leased to hold the flat boxes for a few days, is 5' x 10'. Which is enough to hold the 20 bundles of box flats.

The ULINE contractor delivering the boxes has a pallet jack and a lift gate on rear of truck. The truck can park next to the unit, and it's routine for drivers to deliver to inside a doorway (like the storage unit roller door.)

The unit floor space only fits 3 pallets. You'd think cutting the straps on one pallet load and stacking the 5 bundles on top of the ones in the unit would not be a problem.

BUT NO!  ULINE refuses to specfify the driver will do that. I don't yet know if the storage site management can be asked to do it, as they are closed. Need to get the boxes there on Friday, for safety of other schedule steps. So I cannot place the order today (ULINE have 24 hour ordering), and risk missing the Friday delivery slot.

Also the pallet 40" dimension, times three is exactly 10'. The long dimension of the storage unit. What's the bet the 10' will be a little under, or the pallets slightly over, and the door can't be closed? Which just means unstrapping TWO pallets and stacking the bundles, but...

Arrgh.

[nctnico]

Go for plastic bags to bundle the manuals!

[Ed.Kloonk]

They told us that by now all those manuals would be on 1 CD.

Liars.

[Cerebus]

Background: Late 2021 I ebay-bought several thousand service manuals, stacked in a storage unit near Sacramento USA. Info:

When you did that I knew there was going to be a chapter of the saga like this.

I'm glad that someone is saving these. I'm even gladder that it's not me!

Good luck!

[rsjsouza]

In the turn of the century, literature shipped to our company used to come tightly packed in a massive crate wrapped with rolls and rolls of plastic film, as suggested by Nico. I would explore this avenue.

Also, once I saw a shipment using quite a few of those industrial shelving systems where the literature was neatly wrapped in plastic foil, and then the shelving itself was also wrapped in the foil. Although expensive, the advantage in that case was that the shelves used for transportation were also used to store the literature.

This was about twenty years ago, so I don't remember all the details.

By shelving I mean something like this:
https://www.uline.com/Grp_263/Industrial-Wire-Shelving

A cheaper and less sturdy alternative (probably single use) would be cheap bookcases from Walmart, for example.

[IanB]

Bankers Boxes or equivalent filing boxes come in standard sizes like 24" x 12" x 10" and are readily available. Are you not able to make use of those? Look at suppliers like Office Depot or Staples.

[TerraHertz]

Go for plastic bags to bundle the manuals!

NO!
Good grief. Have you looked at the photos of the quantity? Any idea what would happen to a containerload of
manuals 'sloshing around' loose? Plastic bags are slippery. You'd invent 'book mass liquifaction.'
Also there are issues to do with Customs inspection, Quarantine potential fumigation, etc. Bags - just no.
I suspect you are trolling. Such a hairbrained idea.

I expect some box crushing in bottom layer or two. But at least things will be staying in one place.

Bankers Boxes or equivalent filing boxes come in standard sizes like 24" x 12" x 10" and are readily available. Are you not able to make use of those? Look at suppliers like Office Depot or Staples.

Height = 10"  All shallow boxes like this are good for stacks of thin documents, that can fill the box right to the top.
They just don't work for manuals that are often 3 to 4 inches thick.

[SmallCog]

I’d consider using stillages (pallet sized boxes or tubs)

These come in both cardboard, such as you may see full of watermelons or pumpkins, and plastic/metal

Get your helpers to put the cardboard stillages into the container, stack the books, then possibly go a layer on top

What’s your plan for unpacking? Having them on pallets will make unloading quicker saving on container hire fees if you’ve got access to a forklift

Example:

[Drewbie]

Yes. Cardboard Bulk Bins.

I had a large quantity of TE packed into one of these and shipped via truck to me a while back and it was very sucessful.

https://jmpholdings.com.au/industrial-packaging/corrugated-cardboard-pallets/

Easily moved around with a pallet jack.

[nctnico]

Go for plastic bags to bundle the manuals!

NO!
Good grief. Have you looked at the photos of the quantity? Any idea what would happen to a containerload of
manuals 'sloshing around' loose? Plastic bags are slippery. You'd invent 'book mass liquifaction.'
Also there are issues to do with Customs inspection, Quarantine potential fumigation, etc. Bags - just no.
I suspect you are trolling. Such a hairbrained idea.

Definitely not trolling; I never do that.

You are asking for ideas and given your schedule and other constraints, that is how I would do it. Lots of bulk goods are transported in plastic bags (on pallets). The trick is to use an interlocking stacking pattern together with a sticky mat or glue in between. But if that interferes with customs inspection (likely they'll just X-ray the container) or fumigation then plastic bags are not a good option.

The best option would be to use the cardboard bulk bins (that was my first idea as well) but I'm quite sure these won't fit in your container and (in my mind) are more aimed at transportation by truck or airplane. There are services that offer palletised sea freight but you probably have looked into those yourself already.

[Skashkash]

Yeah,
 Maybe individually wrap the binders in stretch plastic and start filling gaylords.

   https://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/S-4480/Bulk-Cargo/48-x-40-x-36-Double-Wall-Gaylord-Box-with-Lid

    I think that's been suggested. But has its own logistical concerns (need a forklift)

[ozcar]

Can you take over the lease of the storage unit, or get them moved to your own unit? Then take your time to work out what to do.

[Cerebus]

Can you take over the lease of the storage unit, or get them moved to your own unit? Then take your time to work out what to do.

That's not a crazy idea but it's the sort of thing that is very difficult to manage/organise without "boots on the ground" with local knowledge. If Terrahertz is facing time pressure perhaps one of the alternative avenues to explore (in parallel) is to see if he can find someone stupid enough with an equal interest in preserving these for posterity in the Sacramento area who might act as hands, eyes, ears and mouth? It might at least be an idea to start a 'request for help' thread titled "Sacramento area - Need help preserving TE manuals" or somesuch.

[jpanhalt]

"So I'm asking the Net. Does anyone know of a supplier of boxes on the US east coast, with a stock of suitable solid cardboard boxes close to that size? Who could deliver to Roseville CA this week or early next?"

I think you mean West coast of the US. 

Every move I have made where I packed my own boxes was done with used boxes.  They are just a fraction of the cost of new and have been used once or never (i.e., left over stock with a company label).  I am not referring to dealers with just a few.  The places I have bought from had pallet loads of the same box.   I did a quick search of used shipping boxes in Sacramento area, and there are several hits.  Since you are buying a significant quantity, there is a small likelihood the seller will deliver to your site for a small cost.

[nctnico]

Can you take over the lease of the storage unit, or get them moved to your own unit? Then take your time to work out what to do.

That's not a crazy idea but it's the sort of thing that is very difficult to manage/organise without "boots on the ground" with local knowledge.

According to the link Terrahertz has already done that AND rented extra units to store boxes temporarily. But in the end the manuals need to be moved at some point.

Another optimisation is to sort through the manuals to figure out what is worth keeping and what not. Likely there are many duplicates / commonly available manuals. Digitizing the manuals (and throwing them into the paper bin afterwards) may even be cheaper than shipping them. Unless ofcourse the aim is the preserve the physical manual and not just the contents. However, preserving the physical manuals should also include preserving the paper itself. Most post WW2 paper has an acidity which causes the paper to self destruct (yellowing of pages).

[nctnico]

However, preserving the physical manuals should also include preserving the paper itself. Most post WW2 paper has an acidity which causes the paper to self destruct (yellowing of pages).

In my experience, that's not a problem with vintage test equipment manuals, like the HP manual pictured.

When I look at the pictures, I see quite a few manuals (not the majority, but still a significant number) which show signs of yellowing of the paper. There is no way to tell the state of what is further back in the unit.

[Ground_Loop]

It might be cheaper in terms of labor and material to have wooden crates built on site.  It would require far fewer crates than boxes, fill geometry would not be critical and they can be safely stacked.  I only suggest this because I've had it done in the past specifically for cross ocean shipments.

[edavid]

It might be cheaper in terms of labor and material to have wooden crates built on site.  It would require far fewer crates than boxes, fill geometry would not be critical and they can be safely stacked.  I only suggest this because I've had it done in the past specifically for cross ocean shipments.

This has the same problem as the Gaylord idea - how would you get the crates into the shipping container on the truck?