Boeing Starliner upcoming launch, first w/crew

[coppice]

Not out of the woods yet - two new helium leaks: https://x.com/cbs_spacenews/status/1798528269416911143

Two additional ones, plus the one they knew about before they launched. Before launch they said one small leak like this was OK, as they could tolerate 4. Well, they are up to 3 now.

[fourfathom]

Live NASA feed of the Starliner as it approaches the ISS.  Some thruster issues, but still a go:

[globoy]

Congratulations to both the Boeing and SpaceX teams for a pretty big day in space!

[wraper]

Will they need go back on Dragon? https://www.space.com/boeing-starliner-earth-return-delay-june-26-thruster-issues

[iMo]

Stich emphasized that testing in orbit on Saturday (June 15) gave the team confidence that Starliner is recovering. "Saturday was a big day of understanding that helium leaks have gone down, and also understanding the thrusters have recovered, and that we can count on the thrusters for the remainder of the flight," he said.

Hmm, that "understanding" has to be based on some hard facts how the stuff got fixed by itself..

[AlbertL]

Return delayed yet again: https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/06/nasa-indefinitely-delays-return-of-starliner-to-review-propulsion-data/.  Announced Friday (6/21) evening - traditionally the time to roll out bad news.

[Gyro]

Return delayed yet again: https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/06/nasa-indefinitely-delays-return-of-starliner-to-review-propulsion-data/.  Announced Friday (6/21) evening - traditionally the time to roll out bad news.

Hmm, indeed, it certainly isn't good news for Boeing.

NASA indefinitely delays return of Starliner to review propulsion data

Given that the Starliner has a 45 day rated duration, starting from June 6th, what do they do then? Presumably they can't allow it to take up a docking port indefinitely. If it significantly passes the 45 day limit do they grab it with the arm, undock it and gently throw it away? Is it capable of an unmanned return?


P.S. It also has a crew that is intended to return with it. It might get a tad cozy up there.

[coppice]

Return delayed yet again: https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/06/nasa-indefinitely-delays-return-of-starliner-to-review-propulsion-data/.  Announced Friday (6/21) evening - traditionally the time to roll out bad news.

Hmm, indeed, it certainly isn't good news for Boeing.

The heads of Boeing need a Marcus Aurelius style servant, not constantly reminding them that they are only men, but that the Starliner project is not cost plus. I've been in a place transitioning from cost plus to fixed price, and the change is very hard for entrenched people to keep in clear view.

[floobydust]

I think they are delaying and trying to figure out (on earth) what is leaking, as far as gonna get worse or not? for the way home.
If a seal or gasket is getting etched out, that would be very bad.

I wonder what leaking valves these are, they seem to be pilot-assist using helium?
2021 OFT-2 "... before liftoff revealed that 13 of the 24 oxidizer valves in the propulsion system in Starliner's service module were stuck". 

[m98]

Valves are just super tricky to get right. I had to assemble a few that took like three PhD theses to design for some tests. You wouldn't believe the finesse required in actually assembling a working valve, even with all the parts and written documentation available. Without the correct parts in stock and someone very intimately familiar with the design? You probably get something like what is currently happening with Starliner.

[Psi]

Feels like too much of the NASA money went to the Boeing executive and shareholders and not enough money went to the engineers and the testing team.  Space is hard but executive and shareholders love more money.

Also, it may have been hard for Boeing to maintain skilled staff for the entire project. High staff turnover is super bad for this kind of project.

I imagine they were left with the pool of people that all the other Space company's didn't want or just didn't need.
Often that means people who have the needed skills but are harder to work with as a team.

[coppice]

Valves are just super tricky to get right. I had to assemble a few that took like three PhD theses to design for some tests. You wouldn't believe the finesse required in actually assembling a working valve, even with all the parts and written documentation available. Without the correct parts in stock and someone very intimately familiar with the design? You probably get something like what is currently happening with Starliner.

This becomes much more of an issue when the valves need to handle helium (or hydrogen). Any plumbing for those tiny molecules is a PITA.

[wraper]

It looks more and more astronauts will need to return on Dragon. The problem is that Starliner cannot return by itself with its current software  . https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/08/nasa-likely-to-significantly-delay-the-launch-of-crew-9-due-to-starliner-issues/

[tom66]

Holy moly, that's one hell of a screwup for Boeing, if the astronauts have to return on their competitor's product.

[SiliconWizard]

But basically they are currently stuck there just to save Boeing's face?

[tom66]

But basically they are currently stuck there just to save Boeing's face?

I don't think so.  NASA is legitmately concerned that if they undock the Starliner autonomously, and the software isn't just right, then it could crash into the ISS. That would be a catastrophic event, and could well lead to the deaths of crew if significant impact energy occurs.  I suspect in this case NASA don't really know what they can do.  They are probably privately very pissed off at Boeing for not including the autonomous operation software in the current build. 

[SiliconWizard]

But basically they are currently stuck there just to save Boeing's face?

I don't think so.  NASA is legitmately concerned that if they undock the Starliner autonomously, and the software isn't just right, then it could crash into the ISS. That would be a catastrophic event, and could well lead to the deaths of crew if significant impact energy occurs.  I suspect in this case NASA don't really know what they can do.  They are probably privately very pissed off at Boeing for not including the autonomous operation software in the current build.

So, there's no guarantee at this point that they can safely return on Dragon? Meaning that for now, they just don't know what to do and the astronauts may be stuck forever?

[tom66]

There are two docking ports.  One is unoccupied, the other has Starliner attached to it.  Worst case, I think they can use the spare port to return astronauts home via Dragon, and then figure out how to sort out Starliner later.  If it is really bad, they might just have to detach it and maneuver ISS well away from the craft and it becomes another bit of space junk.  I do expect Boeing will figure it out - but they will lose a lot of face in the meantime.

[coppercone2]

it sounds like they should hustle incase the 2ndary exit gets damaged by something like debris. They should not be up there if one of two safety systems is possibly failed

bet they wish they built a 3rd docking port

[wraper]

Didn't notice before posting that NASA just officially confirmed Crew-9 launch is delayed by 5 weeks until they figure things out. https://blogs.nasa.gov/commercialcrew/2024/08/06/nasa-adjusts-crew-9-launch-date-for-operational-flexibility/

[themadhippy]

and the astronauts may be stuck forever

wonder whose shirts they wear

[RJSV]

   I want to see........an AMAZON van pull up, with the parts, boxes up;   for a successful mission.

[coppercone2]

There are two docking ports.  One is unoccupied, the other has Starliner attached to it.  Worst case, I think they can use the spare port to return astronauts home via Dragon, and then figure out how to sort out Starliner later.  If it is really bad, they might just have to detach it and maneuver ISS well away from the craft and it becomes another bit of space junk.  I do expect Boeing will figure it out - but they will lose a lot of face in the meantime.

Can't they prod it with a stick so it burns up?


I imagine something like a really long old style rubber toilet plunger

[tszaboo]

But basically they are currently stuck there just to save Boeing's face?

I don't think so.  NASA is legitmately concerned that if they undock the Starliner autonomously, and the software isn't just right, then it could crash into the ISS. That would be a catastrophic event, and could well lead to the deaths of crew if significant impact energy occurs.  I suspect in this case NASA don't really know what they can do.  They are probably privately very pissed off at Boeing for not including the autonomous operation software in the current build.

I think it was a mistake to ask SpaceX to deorbit the ISS, if they would've asked Boeing to do it, it would be already halfway to Mars

NASA has consistently said that ‘crew safety’ will be its No. 1 priority in deciding how to proceed.

I'm offended, that it's not DEI like it was all the way up to this point. Now it's suddenly ‘crew safety’ with quote marks.

[Gyro]

Last I heard, the Starliner had a 45 day rated duration, starting from June 6th. After that, it wasn't deemed usable.  The way the valves were leaking, I wonder if it has sufficient Helium left for a return, manned or otherwise.