“Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”

[MadScientist]

Listening to the nonsense hydrogen argument is like listening to proponents of Betamax

The vehicle industry has decided BEV is the way forward , end of story. Even Toyota finally realised “ Betamax “ was done

The argument is over , hydrogen is not green , expensive and dangerous to store , it’s dino fuel by another name.

Batteries to day already meet 80% of most people’s private motoring  needs , range now can exceed way beyond many people total weekly mileage

Ireland at the stroke of a pen removed benefit in kind from work charging

No need for loads of street chargers. People will have at least a weeks range . Most urban people have small commutes and priorities are to move them to public transport . Urban people will charge at big mega charger centres. Hone charging will not be a big player into the  future as the power available by the time available will not be enough for big batteries.

Road pricing will be introduced based on gps , and used to recover tax for road users , this has already been studied  by several countries

By the way the biggest material in batteries isn’t lithium , it’s cobalt and nickel

The arguments advanced by HEV proponents are based on poor facts , outdated perspectives and a fundamental mis understanding of how people use cars especially EVs.

The arguments long over.

[Faringdon]

By the way the biggest material in batteries isn’t lithium , it’s cobalt and nickel

Thanks, a Tesla Model S needs 63Kg of lithium
https://electrek.co/2016/11/01/breakdown-raw-materials-tesla-batteries-possible-bottleneck/
An average EV contains about 10kG  of lithium. Thats a lot. Its a finite resource. What if countries that have it sell it off to a "single agent"?

[wraper]

By the way the biggest material in batteries isn’t lithium , it’s cobalt and nickel

Thanks, a Tesla Model S needs 63Kg of lithium

That figure is nonsensical. Li-ion batteries contain a few % of lithium at most on a cell level. 63kg of lithium for 453kg on a package level is completely nonsensical. And the top comment says exactly that.

Visual Capitalist is off in their lithium calculation. Musk has repeatedly said that the amount of lithium in the batteries is "about 2% by mass", not the 13.9% claimed in the article. Motley Fool quotes 11.7kg of lithium, which better aligns with Musk's claim.

And later comments say that an original article was about amount of lithium carbonate, not lithium.

[PlainName]

Batteries to day already meet 80% of most people’s private motoring  needs

How will the other 20% manage?

[wraper]

Batteries to day already meet 80% of most people’s private motoring  needs

How will the other 20% manage?

When there will be more charging infrastructure due to BEV replacing ICE and a little bit of advancement on the range, 100% will be covered.

[Faringdon]

Thanks, for those who have nowhere to charge up a BEV, Hydrogen FCEV is the way forward...its faster to fill up.
Also, there will be Gov grants for HFCEV, because its way too dangerous to depend only  on lithium (as in BEV).
Sorry but, IMHO, I guess anyone who can drive for free on solar charged BEV, is going to want that to become the status quo.

[PlainName]

Batteries to day already meet 80% of most people’s private motoring  needs

How will the other 20% manage?

When there will be more charging infrastructure due to BEV replacing ICE and a little bit of advancement on the range, 100% will be covered.

Or not. I often need to do 200+mile journeys and then be available on a moments notice to do the same again. A charging station here and then ain't going to get me going as quickly as popping into a garage and shoving 30l in a tank. I imagine I am not unique but just a very small sample of your 20%.

It's a big enough problem that I understand when all that's available to buy are EV, essential services such as ambulance and fire will still be allowed to use diesel.

[tom66]

Can you provide a reference to this? I can't find anything related to this limitation. This report https://www.osti.gov/pages/servlets/purl/1389635 even seems to show the opposite effect; at low temperatures the filling goes faster.

Yup, gotta eat my hat on this one, I was remembering it wrong.  It's been some time since I looked into this in my defence .  It gets *slower* when hotter (which, I suppose makes more sense.)  Here's the SAE J2601 chart for a 70MPa refuelling solution (which Mirai and most other conventional hydrogen EVs use - 35MPa is the older system.)

So ~5 minutes up to about 0C, then at 25C about 10-11 minutes, at 40C up to 21 minutes and 45C you'll be waiting 29 minutes (21 minutes+ is into Supercharger stop time, so I guess hydrogen EVs may be more popular in colder countries, if they take off.) 

This assumes the station is fully "recharged", of course. 

I find it interesting there's no SAE J2601 spec for <2MPa.  Is this an enforced 'hydrogen buffer' in the tank to keep the system happy that there is no leak?

[NiHaoMike]

Or not. I often need to do 200+mile journeys and then be available on a moments notice to do the same again. A charging station here and then ain't going to get me going as quickly as popping into a garage and shoving 30l in a tank. I imagine I am not unique but just a very small sample of your 20%.

It's a big enough problem that I understand when all that's available to buy are EV, essential services such as ambulance and fire will still be allowed to use diesel.

It all goes back to plug in hybrid plus biofuel as being the most sustainable option for now that works near optimally for both short and long distance.

[james_s]

How will the other 20% manage?

The same way they manage now, internal combustion engines. Maybe they'll be fueled by gasoline, maybe diesel, maybe biofuels, maybe alcohol, CNG, propane, whatever. My bet is that gasoline and diesel engines will be with us into the foreseeable future, probably at some point most of the remaining fuel powered cars will be hybrids. I don't know why some people seem to this this has to be a case of all or nothing. If your needs are such that an EV doesn't work for you, don't buy one, it really is that simple. We are a long, long way from everyone whose needs are met by EVs having one. Until we reach that level of saturation it's stupid to even worry about it.

I do think we will eventually see EVs with 500, 800, maybe even 1,000 miles of range or more for those who need it, and charging will keep getting faster up to a point. That is a low priority right now though, very few people need that much range and there are ample choices for those who do. A majority of the cars on the road are still liquid fueled, those are not all going to just vanish overnight. I'm fairly confident that all of us here will be dead well before ICE powered cars are gone.

[wraper]

Batteries to day already meet 80% of most people’s private motoring  needs

How will the other 20% manage?

When there will be more charging infrastructure due to BEV replacing ICE and a little bit of advancement on the range, 100% will be covered.

Or not. I often need to do 200+mile journeys and then be available on a moments notice to do the same again. A charging station here and then ain't going to get me going as quickly as popping into a garage and shoving 30l in a tank. I imagine I am not unique but just a very small sample of your 20%.

It's a big enough problem that I understand when all that's available to buy are EV, essential services such as ambulance and fire will still be allowed to use diesel.

You are not unique enough for existing EVs to not cover your needs. There are existing EV with 400+ mile range. And even if you buy a cheaper one like model 3/Y (with something like 350 mile range), 10 minutes of supercharging will give you another 150-200 miles of range.

[Marco]

No need for loads of street chargers.

Maybe within the context of a dictatorship, unfortunately we live in a democracy and saddling poorfags with range anxiety and the inconvenience of slow fast charging (it would have to be done with appointment too, so doubly inconvenient) is not going to go over well at the ballot box. So yeah, there is a need for loads of street chargers.

We'll need a huge amount of green hydrogen for reducing and industrial process heating regardless if we are to meet decarbonization deadlines, we will likely need huge amounts of hydrogen for seasonal/emergency storage too. If that happens it becomes likely some other uses will piggy back on the infrastructure needed. Maybe not personal transport, but for trucking and airplanes liquid hydrogen could be an option if it can be made cheaply enough.

[ogden]

What about energy storage (in)efficiency of hydrogen+fuel_cell? AFAIK not only initial costs but also operational are higher compared to battery EV.

[Marco]

The extension cord to connect a jetliner to the grid in flight isn't free either.

[PlainName]

It all goes back to plug in hybrid plus biofuel as being the most sustainable option for now that works near optimally for both short and long distance.

Yes, I'd like a hybrid.

I don't know why some people seem to this this has to be a case of all or nothing.

Because that's how it's being sold to us. In London's ultra-low emission zone hybrids are classed the same as petrol and diesel. They get a free pass on the congestion charge, but only because they were the clean option when that was brought in. It is clearly full EV or filthy polluter - no middle way.

[tom66]

Because that's how it's being sold to us. In London's ultra-low emission zone hybrids are classed the same as petrol and diesel. They get a free pass on the congestion charge, but only because they were the clean option when that was brought in. It is clearly full EV or filthy polluter - no middle way.

The problem with PHEVs is they're rarely charged.

I have a Golf GTE PHEV, and I plug mine in almost religiously, and plan the usage of the battery when on hybrid mode to maximise efficiency (and thereby minimise CO2.)

I am fairly unique.  My neighbour has the Audi S3 version of my GTE, and I don't think I've ever seen it plugged in.  He starts it in the morning and a delightful smell of petrol bursts out of the exhaust.  He then idles it for about 5 minutes before setting off, I guess he wants the cabin warm.  This is despite him parking next to his back garden, so charging would hardly be an onerous problem (I run an extension lead through the window.)  He could pre-heat it and probably use the vehicle part-electrically, but instead just benefits from the tax discount for the lease.

To allow PHEVs in London (and other big cities) at the same rate as EVs - you'd need to say that they had to be used on electric.  And the whole point of a PHEV is that they have both electric and fuel available to them.  Maybe you could say driving in a zero-emissions zone is only allowed on electric mode, but how would you determine that from cameras alone? 

[PlainName]

Isn't an issue with hybrids the small battery? Something like 20-mile range, which isn't that much. However, I would have thought that with the rise in petrol prices, plugging it in whenever you can would be worth a fair bit! Clearly, your neighbour earns too much and should be paying more taxes 

[nctnico]

Isn't an issue with hybrids the small battery? Something like 20-mile range, which isn't that much. However, I would have thought that with the rise in petrol prices, plugging it in whenever you can would be worth a fair bit! Clearly, your neighbour earns too much and should be paying more taxes 

Even with a small battery you could save a fair bit of money with a PHEV IF you can charge it from your own outlet (or better: for free) and IF you drive short distances. But then again, short distances are also easy to cover by bicycle. I rarely use my car to drive less than 10km and have no problem to travel much further by bicycle. Inside a city a bicycle is among the fastest modes of transportation anyway.

[ogden]

The extension cord to connect a jetliner to the grid in flight isn't free either.

Your point is what exactly? - That consumers do not care about "fuel" cost? Think again. It's 47.5 EUR to fill 500km range Toyota Miray compared to 15 EUR 500km range Tesla Model3 (2017 price). .pdf. Hydrogen fuel cells could be good for long range trucks - because the bigger vehicle, the worse impact of battery dead weight.

[edit] Attach from same document.

[nctnico]

The extension cord to connect a jetliner to the grid in flight isn't free either.

Your point is what exactly? - That consumers do not care about "fuel" cost? Think again. It's 47.5 EUR to fill 500km range Toyota Miray compared to 15 EUR 500km range Tesla Model3 (2017 price).

That depends on where your electricity comes from. 500km range from a super charger along the highway costs you 80 euro!

[wraper]

The extension cord to connect a jetliner to the grid in flight isn't free either.

Your point is what exactly? - That consumers do not care about "fuel" cost? Think again. It's 47.5 EUR to fill 500km range Toyota Miray compared to 15 EUR 500km range Tesla Model3 (2017 price).

That depends on where your electricity comes from. 500km range from a super charger along the highway costs you 80 euro!

Utter BS https://tm3een.home.blog/2021/06/06/kwh-prices-at-european-tesla-superchargers-20210606/

Tesla Supercharger prices (as of June 6, 2021):

Austria = €0.33 / kWh
Belgium = €0.31 / kWh
Croatia = HRK 2.80 / kWh
Czech Republic = CZK 8.40 / kWh
Danmark = kr. 2.95 / kWh
Finland = €0.32-0.39 / kWh (variabel)
France = €0.28-0.35 / kWh (variabel)
Germany = €0.37 / kWh
Hungary = nihil
Ireland = €0.36-0.37 / kWh (variabel)
Italy = €0.41 / kWh
Liechtenstein = CHF 0.27 / kWh
Luxemburg = €0.29 / kWh
Netherlands = €0.25 / kWh
Norway = kr. 2.25-3.15 / kWh (variabel)
Poland = PLN 1.40 / kWh
Portugal = €0.34-0.37 / kWh (variabel)
Romania = nihil
Slovenia = €0.34 / kWh
Slowakia = €0.29-0.34 / kWh (variabel)
Spain = €0.29-0.30 / kWh (variabel)
Sweden = SEK 3.15-4.40 / kWh (variabel)
Switzerland = CHF 0.32-0.43 / kWh (variabel)
United Kingdom = £0.29-0.33 / kWh (variabel)

[Marco]

Your point is what exactly? - That consumers do not care about "fuel" cost?

My point is that expensive beats impossible, green hydrogen will first come into very large scale use where it's expensive but the alternatives defacto impossible (steel production without coke, possibly storage/flight etc). Where the relative price for it goes after that, well that's anyone's guess. The cost of intermittently generated electricity needed at will and storable hydrogen won't necessarily remain the same going forward.

[Miyuki]

I once run out of gas and was simply towed to the nearest gas station. Quick and easy, problem solved. Just tow to charger station.
I have like a 50km/year free tow in road assistance for about 3€ a month

And for battery life, most statistics show that battery life in, for example, Teslas has a usable life of 500-1000 Thousand km. It is more than most ICE have and the rest of the car will be pretty worn after this time.

[Sal Ammoniac]

The CEO of Toyota is pushing internal combustion engines burning hydrogen as a carbon-neutral power source.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-11-13/japan-carmakers-showcase-carbon-neutral-fuels-in-road-race

To me, that's a step backwards from EVs and fuel-cell hydrogen cars. IC engines are inefficient (think of all of the waste heat they produce), and even when they're burning hydrogen they still produce NOx pollution that needs to be dealt with using a catalytic convertor.

[ogden]

Teslas has a usable life of 500-1000 Thousand km.

Please define "usable battery life". For you crippled downto 1/3 of initial "factory range" could be possibly OK, but for me - rather not. Disclaimer: I do not say that after 1000000 km tesla battery has 1/3 range capacity. This is rather question what remaining capacity % of tesla battery after 1000000 km is.