“Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”

[nctnico]

Unlike fuel cells, in future EVs batteries might also give energy back to the grid integrating with solar and wind energy, taking excess production and giving it back when there is no wind or sun.

Now calculate the price per kWh for doing that. Storing electricity in Li-ion gets expensive quickly especially when using a battery which isn't designed for that purpose. The power company would need to pay you tens of dollar / euro cents per kWh to cover your costs and someone else has to come up with that money.  After a couple of hours it becomes more economical to use hydrogen as a storage medium. The worst mistake to make here is to focus solely on efficiency. Think about how much a mains adapter would cost if it where 99.9% efficient. It just doesn't make sense from a financial point of view.

Electricity is everywhere while an hydrogen grid is nowhere.

Actually there is. Especially if there is a natural gas grid. In the NL the natural gas infrastructure is being modified for use with hydrogen for a while now.

A few programs to upgrade distribution is not the same this as hydrogen being everywhere, or even much of anywhere.

It is not a matter of a few programs and blending: https://ihsmarkit.com/research-analysis/the-netherlands-to-refit-borderstraddling-natural-gas-grid-for.html

Gasunie [is focusing] on the development of a pure hydrogen backbone for several reasons. Not only does the Netherlands have the opportunity to make a separate hydrogen backbone quite easily [by] using existing natural gas pipelines,

[james_s]

Many years ago, there was a movement to get vehicles powered by natural gas.  Some utility companies bought into it as did many municipal bus systems.  The public never did and that's why it is nearly impossible to find a filling station.  I see fuel cells going the same way.  Municipalities and utilities will buy into it (because they are forced to) but not much else.  You can see that pattern in the California initiative to install 250 hydrogen stations and 250,000 battery charging stations.

When my dad worked for the Port of Seattle he said they had fleets of vehicles that ran off CNG. It works well for an operation that has a large enough fleet that they can have their own filling station on site but it wasn't enough of an improvement over gasoline for the infrastructure to pop up everywhere. I suspect you're right that the same thing will happen with hydrogen, if it is mandated, but generally I see it going nowhere. I've never seen a hydrogen filling station before in my life, as far as I know almost all of them that exist in this country are down in CA.

[james_s]

And then the tax collector comes around and fines the employer for handing out freebies to the employees. In the NL 'free' EV charging for employees is an administrative nightmare.

Give it a rest man, that's the stupidest argument yet. It's a trivial matter to pass legislation to completely eliminate that hurdle. Even here in the USA with our back-asswards broken politics something like that is easily solved. Of course it doesn't need to be solved here because it's already not an issue, certain employers have been offering free EV charging for around a decade. Do you seriously not have employee perks in your country? That's bizarre.

[NiHaoMike]

Right now at least there is a strong market for used EV batteries from wrecked cars. People are using them for conversions of older cars and for home energy storage. It will actually be nice as that market expands, there are all kinds of things I can use large banks of lithium ion batteries for.

Thank PG&E's neglect to maintain their infrastructure, forcing customers to look at alternative energy. Shortly after that energy crisis began, several resellers of used EV batteries saw a big boost in demand. With solar and batteries getting cheaper, I would expect more and more customers in those areas deciding to go off grid rather than put up with expensive, unreliable power.

[nctnico]

And then the tax collector comes around and fines the employer for handing out freebies to the employees. In the NL 'free' EV charging for employees is an administrative nightmare.

Give it a rest man, that's the stupidest argument yet. It's a trivial matter to pass legislation to completely eliminate that hurdle. Even here in the USA with our back-asswards broken politics something like that is easily solved. Of course it doesn't need to be solved here because it's already not an issue, certain employers have been offering free EV charging for around a decade. Do you seriously not have employee perks in your country? That's bizarre.

Not tax free employee perks. Over here there are very strict limits on what employers can hand out for free and what counts as income. This legislation has been put in place to prevent employers paying employees with goods instead of money in order to evade taxes. This isn't trivial to change and you'd also need to think about how that is fair to people who come to work by bike or public transport. If you look at the big picture things are not simple.

[Nusa]

If you've been looking up HEV, realize that is the industry alphabet soup for Hybrid Electric Vehicle. No hydrogen involved. Which is an EV/ICE combination, typically with a much smaller and cheaper battery. Also the subset PHEV, which is Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle.

The correct term would be FCEV (Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle). Which doesn't have to be hydrogen, although those currently for sale are.

[SiliconWizard]

The correct term would be FCEV (Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle). Which doesn't have to be hydrogen, although those currently for sale are.

True. Ethanol for instance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct-ethanol_fuel_cell

[PlainName]

and even Boris Johnson is in on the act

Which means that whatever we've been told it will be, it will turn out to be the exact opposite, but only after lots of bluster and outright fibbing.

[TimFox]

Many years ago, there was a movement to get vehicles powered by natural gas.  Some utility companies bought into it as did many municipal bus systems.  The public never did and that's why it is nearly impossible to find a filling station.  I see fuel cells going the same way.  Municipalities and utilities will buy into it (because they are forced to) but not much else.  You can see that pattern in the California initiative to install 250 hydrogen stations and 250,000 battery charging stations.

When my dad worked for the Port of Seattle he said they had fleets of vehicles that ran off CNG. It works well for an operation that has a large enough fleet that they can have their own filling station on site but it wasn't enough of an improvement over gasoline for the infrastructure to pop up everywhere. I suspect you're right that the same thing will happen with hydrogen, if it is mandated, but generally I see it going nowhere. I've never seen a hydrogen filling station before in my life, as far as I know almost all of them that exist in this country are down in CA.

Before retiring, and thereafter before the pandemic, I made many business trips (and a couple of vacation trips) to Japan.  As a pollution control, the taxicabs in Tokyo all used LP gas (although in less urban areas they were gasoline powered).  Unfortunately, the tank took up much of the trunk space that could have been useful for big American luggage.

[tom66]

Not tax free employee perks. Over here there are very strict limits on what employers can hand out for free and what counts as income. This legislation has been put in place to prevent employers paying employees with goods instead of money in order to evade taxes. This isn't trivial to change and you'd also need to think about how that is fair to people who come to work by bike or public transport. If you look at the big picture things are not simple.

Pretty trivial in the UK.
Certain things are not taxable as a benefit - like accommodation when needed for your job (i.e. oil workers, or a salesman taking a hotel overnight)
Electric vehicle charging is included in that.  It can be free or they can charge you at cost, but either way there's no cost for any benefit you get.

I don't know the Dutch tax code, but I'm sure that they have exceptions for taxable benefits.  Pasting "charging for electric vehicles" into that tax code seems hardly arduous.

In any case at my old job I did have to pay for my EV charging.  It didn't seem worthwhile to charge me - at about £10 a month - but it was seen as fair to the other employees who had to pay for their petrol and diesel.  The accountant would just go down and read the electric meter for my 'station', each 'station' having its own, and I only had the key for #4, so I knew that was all the electricity I used.  It was then deducted from my salary at the end of the month.

[PlainName]

Certain things are not taxable as a benefit - like accommodation when needed for your job (i.e. oil workers, or a salesman taking a hotel overnight)
Electric vehicle charging is included in that.

Electric vehicle charging isn't anything like that! Unless, of course, you need to do it for your job, but traveling to and from work doesn't count.

The thing about this is it seems to be a political thing to encourage EV use, much like once upon a time diesel was dead cheap, and they'd pay you to put up solar panels, etc. I suspect that at some point, presumably as tax from fossil fuels drops and EVs are the default buy for people, they will change their minds. Once they've figured out how to determine electricity usage they'll apply the appropriate tax rate. Until then it looks like a free meal But only for those rich enough to be able to buy one. The poor will be stuck with highly-taxed fossil movers

[Faringdon]

Thanks, woops yes, i have been saying "HEV" when i meant "Hydrogen FCEV".
IMHO,  having a total reliance on Lithium, which may only be available in a few places which may get bought up by a single country/company, seems a bit dodgy.
Also, Fuel cells seem easier to reclaim platinum from, than reclaiming lithium from big car batteries, where each cell is welded in.
IMHO, reclaiming lithium from a big dead car battery sounds more difficult than actually extracting lithium from "Lithium ore".

And 5 years down the line from now, how many BEV owners are going to be bringing their BEV in to the garage and saying, "ive got a rogue cell just come up, and my battery capacity is down by 40%" ?
..We wont know till 5 years time.

Also, IMHO, i reckon its easier to heat up a small fuel cell for -10degC operation, than heating up a big BEV car battery?

[TimFox]

Meanwhile,
https://www.forbes.com/sites/mergermarket/2021/11/03/demand-for-metals-charges-up-lithium-ion-battery-recycling/?sh=230b09e36f43

[james_s]

The thing about this is it seems to be a political thing to encourage EV use, much like once upon a time diesel was dead cheap, and they'd pay you to put up solar panels, etc. I suspect that at some point, presumably as tax from fossil fuels drops and EVs are the default buy for people, they will change their minds. Once they've figured out how to determine electricity usage they'll apply the appropriate tax rate. Until then it looks like a free meal But only for those rich enough to be able to buy one. The poor will be stuck with highly-taxed fossil movers

They already screw you in my state if you drive an EV. Not only is the calculation for the annual licensing fee based on calculated value way, way off of true market value (like 300% in the case of the cheaper ones) but there is an additional $150 annual electric vehicle fee tacked on. For all the hot air our idiot governor spews about "green" stuff it is a real slap in the face that they turn around and punish anyone with an EV with exorbitant licensing fees. 

[Nusa]

Careful, hijacking into politics, especially if you start getting partisan or start calling real people names, is a great way to force moderators to act.

But yes, states are struggling about the issue of road taxes build into fuel prices. Hybrids aren't much of an issue, but BEV's aren't paying those taxes in most cases. It's still being ignored in many places, but long-term the revenue plan clearly needs to change.

[Nusa]

TAlso, IMHO, i reckon its easier to heat up a small fuel cell for -10degC operation, than heating up a big BEV car battery?

You're making a mountain out of a near-nothing. All you have to do to heat up a battery is to use it...both charging and discharging create heat. Thermal management is primarily there to get RID of heat in a BEV. Sure, it might be weaker for the first minutes, but it's a LARGE battery, you'll still get home. -10C (14F) is a common enough winter temperature for northern states in the US that this HAS met lots of real-world testing. -20C (-4F) is less common, but happens often enough in some areas to be well-tested as well.

This applies to most battery technologies. Back in the 1970s, if a very cold lead-acid car battery was cranking weakly, one of the tricks was to turn on the headlights (still incandescent then, so they pulled a few amps) for a few minutes. Using the battery heated it up. Next attempt to crank the engine would be much stronger.

Your li-ion battery in your smartphone is another example. Notice how it gets warm when you're making the phone work hard. Notice how it also gets warm when you're charging it.

[nctnico]

Careful, hijacking into politics, especially if you start getting partisan or start calling real people names, is a great way to force moderators to act.

But yes, states are struggling about the issue of road taxes build into fuel prices. Hybrids aren't much of an issue, but BEV's aren't paying those taxes in most cases. It's still being ignored in many places, but long-term the revenue plan clearly needs to change.

Indeed. In the Netherlands BEV / FCEV drivers are likely slapped with a extra based on distance travelled to compensate for the loss of tax revenue otherwise collected through fuel. This will probably happen around 2025 or so.

[Marco]

When my dad worked for the Port of Seattle he said they had fleets of vehicles that ran off CNG. It works well for an operation that has a large enough fleet that they can have their own filling station on site but it wasn't enough of an improvement over gasoline for the infrastructure to pop up everywhere. I suspect you're right that the same thing will happen with hydrogen, if it is mandated, but generally I see it going nowhere. I've never seen a hydrogen filling station before in my life, as far as I know almost all of them that exist in this country are down in CA.

There are LNG trucks and tank stations in my country (ie. cryogenic liquid natural gas). That's not too far removed from liquid hydrogen.

[NiHaoMike]

But yes, states are struggling about the issue of road taxes build into fuel prices. Hybrids aren't much of an issue, but BEV's aren't paying those taxes in most cases. It's still being ignored in many places, but long-term the revenue plan clearly needs to change.

The easy solution would be to make every major road a toll road, with existing cars granted "grandfather plates" that exempts them from those tolls or at least greatly reduces the rate.

[james_s]

The easy solution would be to make every major road a toll road, with existing cars granted "grandfather plates" that exempts them from those tolls or at least greatly reduces the rate.

I don't think that idea is likely to fly, people hate toll roads, and it would take a huge amount of infrastructure to implement. Unless every random back road and residential street was also made a toll road you'd find all of those clogged up with people avoiding the tolls. There has been talk of instituting a flat per mile tax, which is viable on newer cars that have OBDII or could use a GPS transponder.

[james_s]

Careful, hijacking into politics, especially if you start getting partisan or start calling real people names, is a great way to force moderators to act.

I didn't name any names, I didn't mention any parties, I only stated the facts. The governor in my state spends a lot of time blathering about the environment but actions speak louder than words, and it is a simple fact that there is a great dis-incentive to driving an electric vehicle here because you are nailed with extra taxes. I pay about $90 to renew the tabs on my car each year, my friend with a Spark EV pays around $500, my friend with a Tesla pays $950, every year. I understand the need to pay for roads and such, but we are nowhere near the market saturation where an extra EV tax makes sense. They also know damn well that the value calculations on the cars are nowhere near accurate and they don't care, the state has fought off every effort so far to correct that. When the state insists a car is worth 3 times what the insurance will pay out if it gets totaled and taxes accordingly something is very wrong.

[nctnico]

The easy solution would be to make every major road a toll road, with existing cars granted "grandfather plates" that exempts them from those tolls or at least greatly reduces the rate.

I don't think that idea is likely to fly, people hate toll roads, and it would take a huge amount of infrastructure to implement. Unless every random back road and residential street was also made a toll road you'd find all of those clogged up with people avoiding the tolls. There has been talk of instituting a flat per mile tax, which is viable on newer cars that have OBDII or could use a GPS transponder.

In the US a viable option would be to use the car's own recorded distance travelled up to some point (how tamper safe is this?). However in areas next to neighbouring countries there have to be ways to determine how much distance a car has travelled inside and outside the country. GPS is definitely not an option. Way to easy to spoof nowadays. The US government is working on phasing GPS out for anything that is critical. The EU is going to do the same.

[tom66]

Certain things are not taxable as a benefit - like accommodation when needed for your job (i.e. oil workers, or a salesman taking a hotel overnight)
Electric vehicle charging is included in that.

Electric vehicle charging isn't anything like that! Unless, of course, you need to do it for your job, but traveling to and from work doesn't count.

Well sure, but that's why I was fine with paying for it, although it did still seem a bit trivial to take what was ~0.5% of my salary every month for the charging.

But in any case the payments/tax thing for workplace charging is not difficult.  Some companies give away free charging.  It's like free coffee in the break room.  Not everybody drinks coffee, so should they start charging for it?   Other companies charge for it.  Also fine.  Ultimately up to the company.

[tom66]

Also, IMHO, i reckon its easier to heat up a small fuel cell for -10degC operation, than heating up a big BEV car battery?

It's not heating the fuel cell itself that's the problem but the temperature of the coupling and the pressure/temperature difference between outside atmosphere and the fuelling process.

It necessitates a reduction in fuelling rate when cold.  I couldn't explain why.  Maybe there is a technical solution,  but it's not present in current hydrogen vehicles.

[nctnico]

Also, IMHO, i reckon its easier to heat up a small fuel cell for -10degC operation, than heating up a big BEV car battery?

It's not heating the fuel cell itself that's the problem but the temperature of the coupling and the pressure/temperature difference between outside atmosphere and the fuelling process.

It necessitates a reduction in fuelling rate when cold.  I couldn't explain why.  Maybe there is a technical solution,  but it's not present in current hydrogen vehicles.

Can you provide a reference to this? I can't find anything related to this limitation. This report https://www.osti.gov/pages/servlets/purl/1389635 even seems to show the opposite effect; at low temperatures the filling goes faster.