“Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”

[mikeselectricstuff]

I don't think that would be difficult at all. The only EV I've lived with for any length of time was a Tesla Model Y, it could charge from the basic charge cable at a rate of 15 miles of range per hour from a 240V 32A circuit, that could be done even with a cheap consumer 8 or 10kW generator. Realistically a roadside assistance vehicle could easily have ~150kW diesel genset and a full fledged mobile Supercharger to give you ~50 miles of range in 10 minutes and the same genset could provide a selection of other charging standards. This is really not that difficult of a problem.

Now calculate the difference in cost between a 150kW generator compared to a jerry can and how that would reflect on your AAA subscription cost.
Why do you think it would need anything like that power ? EVs are pretty good at predicting range, so for the occasional user who runs out, it doesn't matter if it takes 30+ mins to charge enough to get to the nearest charge point. 10-20kW would be more than adequate. And once breakdown vans go electric ( or at least PHEV), they can just charge from their battery.

[richard.cs]

I think the lack of an easily portable energy source is a huge disadvantage.

Evidence so far is that most EV breakdowns are things like damaged tires. If running out of energy is a small fraction of the total breakdowns then it's no big deal if they have to be handled in a less convenient way like towing to a charger (which may be quicker than a possibly-slow portable charger). In any case electricity has the advantage that it's everywhere, I am fairly convinced that should I run out of electricity somewhere in the UK I could knock on a couple of doors cap in hand and get enough electricity to get to a charger, possibly in exchange for beer money. I've done similar to get water for my petrol car after a coolant leak.

Then there's the consideration that many modern engines, including most diesels, won't simply restart if you pour a jerry can in the tank. They need air bleeding out of the fuel system, and whilst not especially difficult this is beyond most drivers putting it in roadside assistance territory anyway.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I think the lack of an easily portable energy source is a huge disadvantage.

Evidence so far is that most EV breakdowns are things like damaged tires. If running out of energy is a small fraction of the total breakdowns then it's no big deal if they have to be handled in a less convenient way like towing to a charger (which may be quicker than a possibly-slow portable charger). In any case electricity has the advantage that it's everywhere, I am fairly convinced that should I run out of electricity somewhere in the UK I could knock on a couple of doors cap in hand and get enough electricity to get to a charger, possibly in exchange for beer money. I've done similar to get water for my petrol car after a coolant leak.

Then there's the consideration that many modern engines, including most diesels, won't simply restart if you pour a jerry can in the tank. They need air bleeding out of the fuel system, and whilst not especially difficult this is beyond most drivers putting it in roadside assistance territory anyway.

And there's always the lamppost + croc clips option...

[richard.cs]

And there's always the lamppost + croc clips option...

Ah, yes. What the military types like to call a "power of opportunity" cable.

[tom66]

Hydrogen cars also struggle filling at below -10C.

The problem is the hydrogen is transported as a refrigerated liquid, which creates cryo-hazards.  In fact, a good hydrogen EV will take about 25-30 minutes to refill at -10C ambient.    The other concerning aspect is the cost of a typical refill station.  Compressing hydrogen to cryogenic temperatures is not cheap, so most stations use a single compressor and storage plant.  The issue is this compressor can only run so fast - typically it runs overnight during down-times - and for the units in Southern California for instance the rate is about one car every 20 to 30 minutes if the station is busy.  Not the so-called 5 minute refuel.  Look the queues that Mirai owners are experiencing.  They're tethered to these stations, no other way around it, whereas at least an EV owner can run an extension lead in most cases!

It is also the case that -10C is not a common temperature for most of the world.  Some places experience it during winter, others do have the disfortune of experiencing it for longer, but regardless there are places like the UK where even going below 0C is uncommon.  EVs can still charge in -10C weather, the charge rate is just reduced and the efficiency is reduced somewhat by using the battery heater.

For charging on the street, a typical EV with a 40kWh battery will need to charge about once a week to cover commuting uses.  So we do not need a density of chargers to match the number of cars. What we do need is dedicated on-street parking bays with EV chargers, about 10-20% of all spaces on a given street should consist of these.  About 50% of homes in the UK have access to off-street parking as well, so they can use their driveway or parking bay as they see fit. We'll also need EV chargers at major destinations for people to 'graze' - already many supermarkets and offices have small numbers of chargers but this will need to increase to ca. 20% of all parking bays, perhaps more.  This will allow people to charge up while their car is otherwise unused, without having home charging options.

[sandalcandal]

I miscalculated once and ran out of gas.  I walked to the gas station with a 2 gallon jug, filled it, and walked back to my car.  That 2 gallons would take me 50+ miles, within the distance to the next gas station.

AAA (USA's largest motor club for road side assistance) would have come with a gallon or two of gas if I was members and called for assistance.

I think AAA (or the likes) has the capacity to carry a fuel cell should they decide to do so.  They usually come in a small pick-up with other equipment, some including a generator for starter-battery and jumping.  I doubt they would be able to come with large enough a generator to charge up your car for another 20 to 50 miles in short duration.  In USA mid-west States, finding a common gas station in the middle of night (1am to 6am) can be iffy within 50 miles.  I doubt charging stations will be more available than common gas stations any time soon.

I think the lack of an easily portable energy source is a huge disadvantage.  In that context, fuel cell at least have some hope, EV's that is plug-in charging only has much less hope...

In the UK, the AA, one of the major breakdown companies is already using a big alternator on the van's engine for EV emergency recharging. I don't recall offhand the power rating.

Is it this one? https://originalads.co.uk/charge-pod/ I haven't heard them meeting their advertised spec of 10kW from their add-on alternator.

[tom66]

The one I saw was 3kW.  If you need to drive 15 miles at 3.5miles/kWh to get to the next charger, then you need 4.3kWh of energy - so over an hour of charging.  Not sure 3kW will cut it.  I'd like to see 20kW and CCS/Chademo capability. Maybe buffered with an onboard battery pack charged at 3-5kW from the main battery.

It's easy to do if the van is already a PHEV or hybrid,  a lot harder if just a standard 2L diesel. 

[nctnico]

For charging on the street, a typical EV with a 40kWh battery will need to charge about once a week to cover commuting uses.  So we do not need a density of chargers to match the number of cars. What we do need is dedicated on-street parking bays with EV chargers, about 10-20% of all spaces on a given street should consist of these.

No. You'd need 30% to 40% of the parking spaces AND solve the problem that people don't occupy a charging point unnecessary. Are you going to wake up at 3:00 in the morning to move your car so the beighbours can charge theirs? The reality is that the current BEVs are not yet evolved to a point where they are real alternatives for cars that run on fuel or hydrogen. It takes another revolution in battery technology to increase the capacity / weight ratio and charge speed. The only charging infrastructure that makes sense financially due to resource sharing is to have superchargers like/at gas stations and charge there within a few minutes. Charging at home / in the street is a temporary crutch and will dissapear again after 10 to 20 years from now.

The one I saw was 3kW.  If you need to drive 15 miles at 3.5miles/kWh to get to the next charger, then you need 4.3kWh of energy - so over an hour of charging.  Not sure 3kW will cut it.  I'd like to see 20kW and CCS/Chademo capability. Maybe buffered with an onboard battery pack charged at 3-5kW from the main battery.

It's easy to do if the van is already a PHEV or hybrid,  a lot harder if just a standard 2L diesel. 

Tow charging is a much easier solution. The cars from Rivian support this AFAIK (I've seen it being done using a prototype in a documentary). But nothing beats a jerry can with gas or diesel where it comes to simplicity.

[wraper]

For charging on the street, a typical EV with a 40kWh battery will need to charge about once a week to cover commuting uses.  So we do not need a density of chargers to match the number of cars. What we do need is dedicated on-street parking bays with EV chargers, about 10-20% of all spaces on a given street should consist of these.

No. The reality is that the current BEVs are not yet evolved to a point where they are real alternatives for cars that run on fuel or hydrogen. It takes another revolution in battery technology to increase the capacity / weight ratio and charge speed. The only charging infrastructure that makes sense financially due to resource sharing is to have superchargers like/at gas stations and charge there within a few minutes. Charging at home / in the street is a temporary crutch and will dissapear again after 10 to 20 years from now.

The one I saw was 3kW.  If you need to drive 15 miles at 3.5miles/kWh to get to the next charger, then you need 4.3kWh of energy - so over an hour of charging.  Not sure 3kW will cut it.  I'd like to see 20kW and CCS/Chademo capability. Maybe buffered with an onboard battery pack charged at 3-5kW from the main battery.

It's easy to do if the van is already a PHEV or hybrid,  a lot harder if just a standard 2L diesel. 

Tow charging is a much easier solution. The cars from Rivian support this AFAIK. But nothing beats a jerry can with gas or diesel where it comes to simplicity.

You conveniently forget there is no jerry can for filling Hydrogen. FWIW Hydrogen cars did not evolve to be a viable alternative to anything, be it ICE or BEV.

Charging at home / in the street is a temporary crutch and will dissapear again after 10 to 20 years from now.

It's the best and the most convenient way do do it. You don't need to go anywhere to charge it. Why would you go out of your way to get to the charging station if there is no need to do so?

[nctnico]

@Wraper: You are making the mistake assuming that everyone has a driveway AND wants to plug in the car every time they park it / enjoy unplugging it before use.

[Marco]

No. You'd need 30% to 40% of the parking spaces

If our government had been pro-active and nationalized the fibre installation and combined it with charging installation even 100% would have been relatively cheap. If the sidewalk is opened up any way, installing a power cable and concrete pits every 5 meter with a power connection into which charging points can be installed at some future date costs basically bugger all. Then you can slowly build out the charging infrastructure, all the way upto 100%, just by lifting pavers and putting a charger in the pit.

Shoulda, woulda, coulda.

[tom66]

For charging on the street, a typical EV with a 40kWh battery will need to charge about once a week to cover commuting uses.  So we do not need a density of chargers to match the number of cars. What we do need is dedicated on-street parking bays with EV chargers, about 10-20% of all spaces on a given street should consist of these.

No. You'd need 30% to 40% of the parking spaces AND solve the problem that people don't occupy a charging point unnecessary. Are you going to wake up at 3:00 in the morning to move your car so the beighbours can charge theirs? The reality is that the current BEVs are not yet evolved to a point where they are real alternatives for cars that run on fuel or hydrogen. It takes another revolution in battery technology to increase the capacity / weight ratio and charge speed. The only charging infrastructure that makes sense financially due to resource sharing is to have superchargers like/at gas stations and charge there within a few minutes. Charging at home / in the street is a temporary crutch and will dissapear again after 10 to 20 years from now.

Don't know where you get 30-40%, even 20% would be on the high end.

Average odo for someone in Europe is 12,000 km/year (7,500 mi/year.)  Average EV gets about 4-5 km/kWh,  say 4 km/kWh to be a pessimist.  An on-street charger can manage 7kW.  So for a year's charging you need 3,000 kWh or 428 hours of charging.  There are about 8,700 hours in a year, so the average EV needs to spend about 5% of its life plugged in.  And since cars spend about 95% of their time parked, it seems crazy to say that there wouldn't be a time in that 95% where the car could not be charged (and only half of those need to be at public chargers, because the other half will charge their majority of electrons at home.)

The big challenge is making sure everyone doesn't hog the resources e.g. at night, so you'd want to scale the resource by 2x or so, to account for peak time usage (getting home at 6pm and looking for a charger.)  Plus you'd want workplace chargers, supermarket chargers, gym chargers, etc. so that people can opportunity-charge whenever their car is parked up.  The 12,000km/year usage would use about 8.2kWh/day, so Monday-Sunday uses 41kWh.  Are we really saying in that time that no one could spend 5 hours of that week with their car hooked up?  I don't believe it.  All a matter of making sure that people can opportunity-charge.

[rstofer]

@Wraper: You are making the mistake assuming that everyone has a driveway AND wants to plug in the car every time they park it / enjoy unplugging it before use.

Oddly, that's exactly what I do and have done so for the last 8 years.  A partially charged battery is, well, partially charged - kind of range limiting.

[rstofer]

I have yet to see an EV alongside the road with a dead battery.  Yes, range anxiety is a real thing but it can be handled.  I recently gave away my Chevy Silverado (pickup truck) and now the two of us share the EV.  Somehow, it all works out.  There is something of a requirement that a retired EE drive an EV.  There's so much magic in these vehicles!

Covid has had some offshoots:  Everything we need is delivered.  Fast food, groceries, beer...  The delivery charge is worth it to me just to avoid having to walk through some of the grocery mega-stores.  Even Costco delivers and that's usually a really big deal.  Worth every dime to have somebody else fill the cart, pass through checkout and deliver it to my doorstep.

[rstofer]

For charging on the street, a typical EV with a 40kWh battery will need to charge about once a week to cover commuting uses.  So we do not need a density of chargers to match the number of cars. What we do need is dedicated on-street parking bays with EV chargers, about 10-20% of all spaces on a given street should consist of these.

No. You'd need 30% to 40% of the parking spaces AND solve the problem that people don't occupy a charging point unnecessary. Are you going to wake up at 3:00 in the morning to move your car so the beighbours can charge theirs? The reality is that the current BEVs are not yet evolved to a point where they are real alternatives for cars that run on fuel or hydrogen. It takes another revolution in battery technology to increase the capacity / weight ratio and charge speed. The only charging infrastructure that makes sense financially due to resource sharing is to have superchargers like/at gas stations and charge there within a few minutes. Charging at home / in the street is a temporary crutch and will dissapear again after 10 to 20 years from now.

Don't know where you get 30-40%, even 20% would be on the high end.

Average odo for someone in Europe is 12,000 km/year (7,500 mi/year.)  Average EV gets about 4-5 km/kWh,  say 4 km/kWh to be a pessimist.  An on-street charger can manage 7kW.  So for a year's charging you need 3,000 kWh or 428 hours of charging.  There are about 8,700 hours in a year, so the average EV needs to spend about 5% of its life plugged in.  And since cars spend about 95% of their time parked, it seems crazy to say that there wouldn't be a time in that 95% where the car could not be charged (and only half of those need to be at public chargers, because the other half will charge their majority of electrons at home.)

The big challenge is making sure everyone doesn't hog the resources e.g. at night, so you'd want to scale the resource by 2x or so, to account for peak time usage (getting home at 6pm and looking for a charger.)  Plus you'd want workplace chargers, supermarket chargers, gym chargers, etc. so that people can opportunity-charge whenever their car is parked up.  The 12,000km/year usage would use about 8.2kWh/day, so Monday-Sunday uses 41kWh.  Are we really saying in that time that no one could spend 5 hours of that week with their car hooked up?  I don't believe it.  All a matter of making sure that people can opportunity-charge.

Opportunity charging at a supermarket or other public place also makes you a target for <insert something bad here>.  I can see places of employment because many are behind fences but I'm certainly not going to charge right next to an ATM machine.

Were I still working, I would have been the guy building out multiple charging stations for our employees.  As we were essentially an engineering division of some 10,000 employees (far less in later years), how many stations would I need?  10% of current headcount?  We had enough incoming power (115kV 28MVA easily) but I would have had to dig up a lot of pavement to get the 12kV over to a dedicated substation (or several) to provide 240V for the chargers.  It would have been a monster project but the company would have just considered it a cost of doing business.  Charging would have been free.  I don't know what it might cost but I know I would take a flogging every day for a) it isn't done yet and b) it costs too much.  Such is the life of a project manager.

I suppose we could play 'musical plugs' and require employees to share time on the charger but these folks cost a LOT of money.  We wouldn't even consider it!

All of that charging would be during 'on peak' hours...

[Zero999]

Many people are currently using EVs. The shorter range isn't a problem for many and I imagine it's something one would be acutely aware of, which would explain why stranded EVs, with flat batteries isn't a common sight.

Anyway, do we really need another EV vs ICE thread? This topic has been done to death several times.

[nctnico]

For charging on the street, a typical EV with a 40kWh battery will need to charge about once a week to cover commuting uses.  So we do not need a density of chargers to match the number of cars. What we do need is dedicated on-street parking bays with EV chargers, about 10-20% of all spaces on a given street should consist of these.

No. You'd need 30% to 40% of the parking spaces AND solve the problem that people don't occupy a charging point unnecessary. Are you going to wake up at 3:00 in the morning to move your car so the beighbours can charge theirs? The reality is that the current BEVs are not yet evolved to a point where they are real alternatives for cars that run on fuel or hydrogen. It takes another revolution in battery technology to increase the capacity / weight ratio and charge speed. The only charging infrastructure that makes sense financially due to resource sharing is to have superchargers like/at gas stations and charge there within a few minutes. Charging at home / in the street is a temporary crutch and will dissapear again after 10 to 20 years from now.

Don't know where you get 30-40%, even 20% would be on the high end.

That is what the Dutch government is aiming for: One charging point for every 2 to 3 cars.

[SiliconWizard]

Anyway, do we really need another EV vs ICE thread? This topic has been done to death several times.

No, we don't. I thought it was about hydrogen fuel cells.

[Jester]

A bit off topic, I get a kick out of the endless naysayers regarding electric cars. If we focused on the problems during the “ Let’s  go to the moon “ phase of development, we would have never made it off the launchpad.

Meanwhile Tesla cars are everywhere (both of my neighbour's drive one), and Musk is the richest guy on the planet.

I have a good chuckle every time I read one of these “it’s not possible, doomed for failure “ scenarios.

[nfmax]

A bit off topic, I get a kick out of the endless naysayers regarding electric cars. If we focused on the problems during the “ Let’s  go to the moon “ phase of development, we would have never made it off the launchpad.

Meanwhile Tesla cars are everywhere (both of my neighbour's drive one), and Musk is the richest guy on the planet.

I have a good chuckle every time I read one of these “it’s not possible, doomed for failure “ scenarios.

Not only that, but at the same time as selling all those Teslas, Mr Musk is within a year of two of getting a rocket of his own to the actual moon!

[rstofer]

A bit off topic, I get a kick out of the endless naysayers regarding electric cars. If we focused on the problems during the “ Let’s  go to the moon “ phase of development, we would have never made it off the launchpad.

Meanwhile Tesla cars are everywhere (both of my neighbour's drive one), and Musk is the richest guy on the planet.

I have a good chuckle every time I read one of these “it’s not possible, doomed for failure “ scenarios.

Not only that, but at the same time as selling all those Teslas, Mr Musk is within a year of two of getting a rocket of his own to the actual moon!

Can you imagine the PR from using a Tesla as a Moon Rover!  Hang a few solar panels on the roof and it's good to go!  There's plenty of sun hours.  Yes, they would need to solve the temperature problem.

Whenever I hear the word "can't", I point the speaker back to July 20, 1969 when Neil Armstrong first stepped on the Moon!  There is no such thing as "can't".

[nfmax]

A bit off topic, I get a kick out of the endless naysayers regarding electric cars. If we focused on the problems during the “ Let’s  go to the moon “ phase of development, we would have never made it off the launchpad.

Meanwhile Tesla cars are everywhere (both of my neighbour's drive one), and Musk is the richest guy on the planet.

I have a good chuckle every time I read one of these “it’s not possible, doomed for failure “ scenarios.

Not only that, but at the same time as selling all those Teslas, Mr Musk is within a year of two of getting a rocket of his own to the actual moon!

Can you imagine the PR from using a Tesla as a Moon Rover!  Hang a few solar panels on the roof and it's good to go!  There's plenty of sun hours.  Yes, they would need to solve the temperature problem.

Whenever I hear the word "can't", I point the speaker back to July 20, 1969 when Neil Armstrong first stepped on the Moon!  There is no such thing as "can't".

When Mr Musk launched his Tesla Roadster into space, I was most impressed that it didn't actually fall apart from the launch vehicle vibration. Clearly, cars are much better made today than they used to be. Can you imagine what might have happened to a Morris Minor launched on a Saturn V?

[Faringdon]

In fact, a good hydrogen EV will take about 25-30 minutes to refill at -10C ambient.

Thas a good point, i looked into it, and it seems to be because having  the water in the fuel cell ice up causes major problems...
https://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/12/automobiles/fuel-cells-in-the-deep-freeze.html
..however, the above article seems to suggest that they think they might be able to solve this , "might".

[nctnico]

In fact, a good hydrogen EV will take about 25-30 minutes to refill at -10C ambient.

Thas a good point, i looked into it, and it seems to be because having  the water in the fuel cell ice up causes major problems...
https://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/12/automobiles/fuel-cells-in-the-deep-freeze.html
..however, the above article seems to suggest that they think they might be able to solve this , "might".

That is a 17 year old article  Toyota's Mirai works down to -30 deg. C https://newsroom.toyota.eu/the-new-toyota-mirai/

[Faringdon]

Thanks, its difficult to find articles accurately detailing what is the cold weather performance of hydrogen cars. (filling time, drive-ability in cold weather, etc)
...woops, just seen your article, ..ok...it looks like cold weather refilling for HEV's is now solved (?)...and it can be done just as fats as at say 20 degc ambient?

Google also doesnt give stats for percentage of  BEV batteries that get "rogue" cell.
If this is too high, it will be a major downer for BEVs.
And for those out-of-service-life BEV batteries that get used for the grid storage systems.....what's the rate (total stats)  at which they get "rogue" cell?....i bet its high.

Another downer for BEVs, is the lithium and cobalt for them is in countries which are a tad unstable (except Australia, but Australia may not have it available for long).
And how long will the supplies actually be available?....the mines might get depleted.
I reckon lithium supply fears is one of the reasons that Japan has totally committed to Hydrogen cars.
Recycling it out of used  BEV batteries is a situation which has yet to be proven possible on a super large scale. (reasons given in post #7 above)