“Battery EV” vs “Hydrogen Fuel cell EV”

[Faringdon]

Sorry if this got discussed here b4...couldn’t find it

IMHO, it looks like the "Battery EV" has the eight major problems (below) which will mean Hydrogen Fuel cell EV’s always taking at  the very least, 25% of the EV car market...?

1..Batteries are made of loads of cells. One cell going bad can invalidate the whole battery...so battery  wear out is a big problem for battery EVs...(with a battery, you never know just when that rogue cell is going to show, could be any time). Hydrogen cars use a much smaller battery, so this is less of a problem.

2..Recycing all those batterys will be too problematic (cost, time, danger, etc)

3..Lithium batteries can’t be charged at decent rate when below -10degc (even zero degC?). Discharging a lithium battery  is a bit dodgy when ambient is -10degC. {EDIT..?the Li batts can be heated to solve this.}

4..Lithium batteries degrade much quicker at ambient temperatures around 38degC plus

5..A 10 year Battery EV will have near zero second hand price, since it will be useless, since its battery will be pretty well dead.

6..You cant “home charge” a Battery EV if you live in a flat, or house without a drive. (OK, same goes for Hydrogen Fuel cell EV, but hydrogn EV is quicker to charge when youre "out on the road")

7..Lithium batteries use rare metals which aren’t found (in sufficient qty) in EU/UK/USA/AUS/NZ/SA.

8...A hydrogen Fuel cell EV can be  “recharged” much quicker than a battery EV. (EDIT see post#107 for HFCEV fuelling times with temperature)

[wraper]

1. Fuel cells wear out faster than good batteries.
2. https://spectrum.ieee.org/lithiumion-battery-recycling-finally-takes-off-in-north-america-and-europe
3. Any decent EV has a thermal management system.
4. The same as 3.
5  Read 1. And nope, 10 year old Teslas do not cost 0.
6. It's not that hard to install such chargers. Norway does exactly that.
7. But fuel cells use precious metals like Platinum.
8. Refueling of a single car may be faster, however throughput of the refueling stations does not allow to refuel cars one after another. This is not even considering much higher cost compared to charging stall and problems with hydrogen transportation.

[Faringdon]

6. It's not that hard to install such chargers. Norway does exactly that.

Thanks, but There's a lot of space in Norway....a  big British housing estate full of terraced houses with no driveways, would have no Battery EV recharging facility near the house..
..Looking at places like Hunslett Carr or Harehills in Leeds, Walsall in Birmingham, Plumstead in London,  Bulwell in Nottingham, Barkerend in Bradford, plus the "non-luxury" areas of citys like  Manchester, Grimsby, Liverpool, Oldham, Leicester, Sheffield, Sunderland , etc etc.

For those "non-luxury" areas, owning an EV  car will mean councils building huge Hydrogen multi-story car parks, full of Hydrogran/Fuel cell cars (plus huge solar/wind farms, to do the electrolysis for them) .....the "non-luxury" Beeston resident will simply have to walk to the Hydrogen multi story, or electric scooter to it. If there wasnt enough wind or sun, then the "non luxury" resident will simply have to drive the hydrogen EV to a hydrogen station, and fill up with what they can there.

Any decent EV has a thermal management system.

Thanks, but If you dont have a garage, and your EV is outdoors in ambient -10degC, then its going to take a lot of electricity to heat all that big battery up

1. Fuel cells wear out faster than good batteries.

Thanks, but fuel cells are much smaller and lighter than EV batteries, so easier and cheaper to handle, easier to recycle...easier to take out of a hydrogen car and replace.

1. Fuel cells wear out faster than good batteries.

Thanks, but google doesnt show stats yet  for how many battery EVs suffered battery_invalidation due to rogue cell.
I once worked in a place that was trying to develop a way of switching a rogue cell out of a big battery pack......its no easy thing to do...the Battery_EV industry certainly hasnt solved this issue yet. It will need to solve it, if Hydrogen/Fuel cell cars  are  to be knocked out of the equation.

[rstofer]

Hydrogen isn't particularly efficient when you think about the amount of energy required to separate, compress, refrigerate, transport and dispense it.  See the graph:

https://theconversation.com/hydrogen-cars-wont-overtake-electric-vehicles-because-theyre-hampered-by-the-laws-of-science-139899

We're going to have a lot more battery charging stations then hydrogen refueling stations here in California.  The State is funding 200 hydrogen stations but 250,000 battery stations.  And that's not counting private enterprise.  We already have a lot of commercial (for pay) charging stations and many public buildings have free charging for employees.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/21/musk-calls-hydrogen-fuel-cells-stupid-but-tech-may-threaten-tesla.html

I have been driving EVs (Chevy Spark EV and Chevy Bolt) for the past 8 years and I like them a lot.  The Spark EV had more than 400 ft-lbs of torque putting it solidly in the 'muscle car' category.  They tamed things down for the Bolt and later Spark EVs.  High performance car, low performance driver, doesn't always end well, I guess.

For my simple needs, the 120V charger is adequate and requires no installation.

[Faringdon]

We're going to have a lot more battery charging stations then hydrogen refueling stations here in California

Thanks, i'll conceed that point straight away...theres loads of space in California....everybody probably has a driveway, or loads of space nearby to put charge points if they dont have a driveway. But look at places like Harehills in Leeds UK, even the Mill Road region of Cambridge UK.
(the above is probably the only text block  ever written that mentions both "California" and "Harehills" in the same paragraph..no offence to either location meant)

https://theconversation.com/hydrogen-cars-wont-overtake-electric-vehicles-because-theyre-hampered-by-the-laws-of-science-139899

Thats a good report, but the energy associated with the production of EV batteries is a lot more than that associated with the production of fuel cells.
Also, the  intensity of labour required to break down big heavy EV batteries for recycling means the west will struggle to handle large uptake of battery EVs.
Also, that report, at the bottom says carbon footprint of battery_EV vs Hydrogen_EV is similar if both are charged up with renewable energy.

[rstofer]

Chevy is recalling the Bolt for battery issues to the extent that they are even buying cars back because to prevent battery fires, the range needs to be reduced a lot.  I am expecting a complete replacement within the next year and a new battery warranty for some long period of time.  Not as big a deal as the Takata air bag issue or the Volkswagon false testing procedure but still expensive.

https://www.chevrolet.com/electric/bolt-recall

It's not a perfect world...

[rstofer]

Also, the  intensity of labour required to break down big heavy EV batteries for recycling means the west will struggle to handle large uptake of battery EVs.

It's my understanding that each cell is reasonable in size and weight.  The Lithium will be quite valuable.  I haven't heard of a mass replacement happening yet (other than the Bolt issue above) and I don't see why the Gigafactories can't get the labor input down to something like car manufacturing.  There will be a lot of machine assistance.

https://www.tesla.com/gigafactory

There is a plant going up in the UK and even Boris Johnson is in on the act:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/oct/25/uk-battery-gigafactory-electric-car-sunderland-envision-nissan

[Faringdon]

Thanks, those Gigafactories are all about battery manufacture...breaking battery packs down for recycling will be a lot  more labour intensive, since you are having to break up all those substantial high current connections from each cell to the pack.
I worked in  a company  that was trying to develop some way of interconnecting cells more dis-connectable-friendly because of the huge problem of disconnecting cells  which have very solid high current connections to the pack. Its a real problem for the Battery_EV industry...they havent got it properly worked   out  yet.

[rstofer]

We're going to have a lot more battery charging stations then hydrogen refueling stations here in California

Thanks, i'll conceed that point straight away...theres loads of space in California....everybody probably has a driveway, or loads of space nearby to put charge points if they dont have a driveway. But look at places like Balsall Heath in Birmingham UK, even the Mill Road region of Cambridge UK.

There are neighborhoods in the US where you would be tempted to stay in the car with the doors locked.

You're right, I have a 4 car garage that I should be using as a wood shop.  I just haven't gotten started with the conversion (after 6 years).  The charger stays in the garage and the cord snakes out under the door and is protected by some rubber weather seal.

Chevrolet recommends leaving the Bolt outside and the weather here is 'temperate' so it's no big deal.  GM will get it sorted out, I'm not worried.  I like the car!

[Nusa]

... which will mean Hydrogen EV’s always taking at  the very least, 25% of the EV car market...?

Your premise is demonstrably false without even digesting the rest of what you wrote. I know it's not true, you should know it's not true, and while a couple hydrogen models exist for sale, they are a truly tiny portion of the market.

Hydrogen EV's have a very small market share, and I see no signs of getting even close to 25% this decade, never mind the lack of infrastructure to support it outside of centralized fleet vehicles. By comparison, electric EV now has a practical charging network in major markets.

Any commentary about access to power in dense urban conditions applies nearly equally to all technologies....even gasoline. The answer for those people is simply that they don't fill up at home, they find somewhere else to do it.

[SiliconWizard]

Fuel cells are an attractive alternative to conventional batteries. But...
One big issue with hydrogen is, as already mentioned, producing, or rather, extracting it is not energy-efficient.
Another issue is possibly safety. It requires extremely sturdy tanks, and potential risks are not all pretty.

As they are now though, EV batteries don't seem like a very sustainable approach. So it's not ideal either.

In either cases (as hydrogen production requires electricity), electricity generation will become a bottleneck, and until we finally have "clean", sustainable and abundant electricity, we are just displacing the pollution.

[rstofer]

Rolls Royce (UK) has come up with a small scale nuclear reactor that can get around many of the hurdles of actually building such a thing at the site.  The bits and pieces are manufactured and partially assembled in a factory and transported to the site for final assembly.  A site is just 4 acres.

These plants are about 1/3 the size of a conventional nuke plant so they are more easily sited.

An interesting idea because, among other things, quality control is primarily at the factory.  The design can be preapproved and permitting will be a lot faster.

https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/news/rolls-royce-gets-funding-for-small-nuclear-reactors-in-the-uk/

We should learn from the Texas debacle:  Renewables aren't reliables!  Solar and wind can fail in a spectacular way and, lacking a grid intertie, Texas was left without power for up to 17 days:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Texas_power_crisis

[Nusa]

We should learn from the Texas debacle:  Renewables aren't reliables!  Solar and wind can fail in a spectacular way and, lacking a grid intertie, Texas was left without power for up to 17 days:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Texas_power_crisis

Yes, although ALL the usual forms of energy failed at the consumer level during that crisis. No natural gas, no electricity, no gasoline (retail pumps require electricity), no charging stations for your EV's (ditto, at least once the local batteries were exhausted). The lucky ones had older houses with functional fireplaces, assuming they could find enough stuff to burn. The even luckier ones actually had proper cold-weather gear to wear.

[ejeffrey]

Rolls Royce (UK) has come up with a small scale nuclear reactor that can get around many of the hurdles of actually building such a thing at the site.  The bits and pieces are manufactured and partially assembled in a factory and transported to the site for final assembly.  A site is just 4 acres.

These plants are about 1/3 the size of a conventional nuke plant so they are more easily sited.

An interesting idea because, among other things, quality control is primarily at the factory.  The design can be preapproved and permitting will be a lot faster.

https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/news/rolls-royce-gets-funding-for-small-nuclear-reactors-in-the-uk/

We should learn from the Texas debacle:  Renewables aren't reliables!  Solar and wind can fail in a spectacular way and, lacking a grid intertie, Texas was left without power for up to 17 days:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Texas_power_crisis

All the Texas debacle proved is that if you don't winterize your grid it can be taken down by winter weather, and if you don't interconnect your grid to anyone else you can't get power in a regional emergency.  The "renewables aren't reliable" angle on the Texas emergency is 100% BS and easily shown because the natural gas infrastructure also failed while wind power in Iowa works fine in winter.

That's not too say that there aren't availability problems with renewables but that had nothing to do with what happened in Texas.  That entire story was a PR stunt to distract from the other failures.

[Nusa]

Lack of winterization is right, but not entirely BS. Renewable sources also need winterization measures. That's cost-cutting policy and/or operator error, not a technology error.

[james_s]

I have been driving EVs (Chevy Spark EV and Chevy Bolt) for the past 8 years and I like them a lot.  The Spark EV had more than 400 ft-lbs of torque putting it solidly in the 'muscle car' category.  They tamed things down for the Bolt and later Spark EVs.  High performance car, low performance driver, doesn't always end well, I guess.

My friend has a Spark, he got a good deal on it but he gets screwed by the licensing fee since the state claims it's worth almost 3 times what he paid for it. Amazing little car though, in terms of acceleration off the line it's one of the faster cars I've been in.

[NiHaoMike]

I would say the best solution for now is plug in hybrid - you get the benefits of EVs for shorter trips without having the problems EVs have for longer trips. Next step is to make the engine run on biofuel so longer trips can also be "environmentally friendly".

Yes, although ALL the usual forms of energy failed at the consumer level during that crisis. No natural gas, no electricity, no gasoline (retail pumps require electricity), no charging stations for your EV's (ditto, at least once the local batteries were exhausted). The lucky ones had older houses with functional fireplaces, assuming they could find enough stuff to burn. The even luckier ones actually had proper cold-weather gear to wear.

A large part of the Texas energy crisis could have been prevented if they had programs that paid people to disconnect from the grid and run on backup, as well as programs to reward greatly cutting down on usage. I had a setup to tap backup power from my car but didn't use it last February since it was way cheaper to charge backup batteries from the grid when it was up, even though that contributed to the problem. I'd imagine there would be a lot more investment in backup power sources if there's a chance of getting paid to use it.

There is one energy source that didn't fail, and that's home solar with backup - just brush off the snow and it's up and running. As far as I know, there's still only two significant manufacturers - SMA and MPP - that offer daytime backup without batteries. I'd imagine there would be a lot more if that concept were more well known.

[BrianHG]

A new plus for hydrogen coming:

[james_s]

I would say the best solution for now is plug in hybrid - you get the benefits of EVs for shorter trips without having the problems EVs have for longer trips. Next step is to make the engine run on biofuel so longer trips can also be "environmentally friendly".

Those "problems" are already mostly solved, it is not hard to get a full EV now that does 300 miles on a charge and can have a substantial amount of charge added in 10 minutes. For longer trips there are hybrids and conventional ICE powered cars, since most families have more than one car it's pretty easy to have an EV and a regular car or hybrid, or just rent a car for the occasional trips. Most people don't take road trips very often, I haven't done it since I was in my 20s.

[Rick Law]

I miscalculated once and ran out of gas.  I walked to the gas station with a 2 gallon jug, filled it, and walked back to my car.  That 2 gallons would take me 50+ miles, within the distance to the next gas station.

AAA (USA's largest motor club for road side assistance) would have come with a gallon or two of gas if I was members and called for assistance.

I think AAA (or the likes) has the capacity to carry a fuel cell should they decide to do so.  They usually come in a small pick-up with other equipment, some including a generator for starter-battery and jumping.  I doubt they would be able to come with large enough a generator to charge up your car for another 20 to 50 miles in short duration.  In USA mid-west States, finding a common gas station in the middle of night (1am to 6am) can be iffy within 50 miles.  I doubt charging stations will be more available than common gas stations any time soon.

I think the lack of an easily portable energy source is a huge disadvantage.  In that context, fuel cell at least have some hope, EV's that is plug-in charging only has much less hope...

[james_s]

I don't think that would be difficult at all. The only EV I've lived with for any length of time was a Tesla Model Y, it could charge from the basic charge cable at a rate of 15 miles of range per hour from a 240V 32A circuit, that could be done even with a cheap consumer 8 or 10kW generator. Realistically a roadside assistance vehicle could easily have ~150kW diesel genset and a full fledged mobile Supercharger to give you ~50 miles of range in 10 minutes and the same genset could provide a selection of other charging standards. This is really not that difficult of a problem.

[Zero999]

Old EV batteries, with too lower capacity to be used in cars, can be repurposed for storing energy from the power grid.

Renewables can be fairly reliable. It depends on the location. Hydroelectric power can be very reliable. In Western Europe, wind is fairly reliable, especially in winter, but there needs to be enough turbines, over a large enough area, connected to the same grid.

[nctnico]

I don't think that would be difficult at all. The only EV I've lived with for any length of time was a Tesla Model Y, it could charge from the basic charge cable at a rate of 15 miles of range per hour from a 240V 32A circuit, that could be done even with a cheap consumer 8 or 10kW generator. Realistically a roadside assistance vehicle could easily have ~150kW diesel genset and a full fledged mobile Supercharger to give you ~50 miles of range in 10 minutes and the same genset could provide a selection of other charging standards. This is really not that difficult of a problem.

Now calculate the difference in cost between a 150kW generator compared to a jerry can and how that would reflect on your AAA subscription cost.

@Faringdon: KPMG publishes an automotive outlook every year which shows customer and technical trends for the automotive industry. It answers several of your questions: https://automotive-institute.kpmg.de/GAES2020/downloads/global_automotive_executive_survey_2020.pdf

[wraper]

Now calculate the difference in cost between a 150kW generator compared to a jerry can and how that would reflect on your AAA subscription cost.

Except you cannot use a jerry can for hydrogen filling. It will be quite complicated and expensive system. Nor you necessarily need a 150kW generator. 10-20 minutes of charging at level 2 speed most likely will give you enough range to drive to the closest charging station, unless you are in the middle of nowhere. Or just tow it to the closest charging station. Nor you need a generator at all. 10-20kWh portable battery will do the job. Or you don't even need a portable battery. If roadside assistance vehicle is an EV, it can output power from its own battery.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I miscalculated once and ran out of gas.  I walked to the gas station with a 2 gallon jug, filled it, and walked back to my car.  That 2 gallons would take me 50+ miles, within the distance to the next gas station.

AAA (USA's largest motor club for road side assistance) would have come with a gallon or two of gas if I was members and called for assistance.

I think AAA (or the likes) has the capacity to carry a fuel cell should they decide to do so.  They usually come in a small pick-up with other equipment, some including a generator for starter-battery and jumping.  I doubt they would be able to come with large enough a generator to charge up your car for another 20 to 50 miles in short duration.  In USA mid-west States, finding a common gas station in the middle of night (1am to 6am) can be iffy within 50 miles.  I doubt charging stations will be more available than common gas stations any time soon.

I think the lack of an easily portable energy source is a huge disadvantage.  In that context, fuel cell at least have some hope, EV's that is plug-in charging only has much less hope...

In the UK, the AA, one of the major breakdown companies is already using a big alternator on the van's engine for EV emergency recharging. I don't recall offhand the power rating.