Australian Engineers Registration Act?

[GodIsRealUnless DefinedInt]

I just heard that Australia has some law on the books that's coming into force that all engineers have to register with the government and cannot give engineering advice or represent themselves as an engineer unless they do. Something also about you need a minimum of a four year university degree and even then you have to apprentice yourself out to another registered engineer for four years before you can be "blessed" with your own engineer title? Is this throughout the entire country? It sounds to me like protectionism.

[gnuarm]

It can mean nothing if you are willing to work around it.  In the US licensing is done at the state level and some states have various restrictions on calling yourself an "engineer".  Easy enough to change your cards and web site to offer "design services" without using the term "engineer" or "engineering".  It's not like medicine where the act of practicing medicine is restricted.  It is too hard to specify what is "engineering" vs. just design so the laws typically only cover how you word what you do. 

Mox nix.  Beat the bureaucrats at their own game. 

I'm sure the politicians can't point to problems this law will solve.  It's the mom and apple pie sort of thing.  Everyone is for law and order.  Most engineering segments that actually have health or safety implications are already covered by regulations requiring special certification like designing bridges.  I don't think you need an engineering degree to design a vacuum cleaner, at least not  the ones I've used.

[gnuarm]

If you have to apprentice to an registered engineer for four years to become a registered engineer, how did the first one get registered?

[beanflying]

Protectionism seriously?  Show me a Lawyer in any country I can think of that can put out their shingle without qualifications. Pick your profession and pick your country but before giving 'professional' advice you had better be a professional IMO.

Stick to sorting out the USA's paid fake Doctorates, Diplomas and such crap before you critique another trying to raise a standard.

[GodIsRealUnless DefinedInt]

Such inconsistencies and irrationalities are likely not the result of rational or evidence-based policy responses to real risks. Indeed, legislators rarely create licenses at the behest of consumers seeking protection from a demonstrated threat to health and safety from an occupation. Instead, they most often create licenses in response to lobbying by those already at work in an occupation and their industry associations.

The idea that an industry would ask to be regulated may seem counterintuitive, but it makes sense given that occupational licenses primarily benefit licensed workers themselves. In serving as a bottleneck on entry into an occupation, licensing restricts the supply of practitioners, allowing those who are licensed to command more in wages and prices for their services. This effect has long been known to economists, starting with Adam Smith, who observed in 1776 that trades conspire to reduce the availability of skilled craftspeople in order to raise wages.

I worked for 10 years in Australia from Melbourne to Sidney and Canberra. I already knew about the electricians limitations for doing your own wiring and coming from a non protectionist "speed bump" country, I was curious and opened up the wiring covers over switches and circuits in homes I rented. I was shocked at the absolute cow manure quality of the work I saw inside. I am sure it met the country's regulation but it did not impress me and left a bad impression in me on a whole for that whole licensed occupation racket. The worst racket though was in automobile licensing restrictions where you had to take your car to a licensed state approved shop to get your annual sign off. The amount of racketeering I saw where parts that were fine were said to be bad and needed costly replacement "bribe" to the auto mechanic business in order to purchase your sign off on registration was absolutely disgusting.

So yes, I stand by protectionist as my statement.

[Bud]

It can mean nothing if you are willing to work around it.  In the US licensing is done at the state level and some states have various restrictions on calling yourself an "engineer".  Easy enough to change your cards and web site to offer "design services" without using the term "engineer" or "engineering".  It's

This will not make you eligible to stamp drawings if work in construction for instance. You will be out of any official approval business. Not being a registered professional engineer will severely limit what you can legally do. So yes, that means a lot.

[TimFox]

The State regulations in the US define and qualify  a “Professional Engineer” or “P.E.”.  Many processes require a signature of a P.E. in the relevant field, such as structural engineering.  See nspe.org for the US.

[helius]

"Protectionism" usually covers rules that shield a nation's domestic industries from foreign competition.
The kind of credentialism being discussed has roots in medieval Europe's guilds. Its function is to keep rates high by restricting supply, but in a globalized world mostly tends to further push productive capital offshore.
In that way it has the exact opposite effect from protectionist policies.

[beanflying]

Such inconsistencies and irrationalities are likely not the result of rational or evidence-based policy responses to real risks. Indeed, legislators rarely create licenses at the behest of consumers seeking protection from a demonstrated threat to health and safety from an occupation. Instead, they most often create licenses in response to lobbying by those already at work in an occupation and their industry associations.

The idea that an industry would ask to be regulated may seem counterintuitive, but it makes sense given that occupational licenses primarily benefit licensed workers themselves. In serving as a bottleneck on entry into an occupation, licensing restricts the supply of practitioners, allowing those who are licensed to command more in wages and prices for their services. This effect has long been known to economists, starting with Adam Smith, who observed in 1776 that trades conspire to reduce the availability of skilled craftspeople in order to raise wages.

I worked for 10 years in Australia from Melbourne to Sidney and Canberra. I already knew about the electricians limitations for doing your own wiring and coming from a non protectionist "speed bump" country, I was curious and opened up the wiring covers over switches and circuits in homes I rented. I was shocked at the absolute cow manure quality of the work I saw inside. I am sure it met the country's regulation but it did not impress me and left a bad impression in me on a whole for that whole licensed occupation racket. The worst racket though was in automobile licensing restrictions where you had to take your car to a licensed state approved shop to get your annual sign off. The amount of racketeering I saw where parts that were fine were said to be bad and needed costly replacement "bribe" to the auto mechanic business in order to purchase your sign off on registration was absolutely disgusting.

So yes, I stand by protectionist as my statement.

Lets deal with the last paragraph first. Engineers do not typically design house wiring. Electricians follow the rules and of more recent times a tighter series of inspection requirements. In the case of larger commercial buildings this it is more 'normal' to have an Engineer involved to run Calculations on wiring but and layout. They still have ZERO to do with the installation. So lets leave the assorted tradies out of this as they have no need of your long distance  We might also leave out that in your 10 years in Australia you never learned the correct spelling of SYDNEY.

Our peak Engineers body which covers ALL of the main branches https://www.engineersaustralia.org.au/Engineering-Registers/Victoria-Registration is anything but exclusionary in my first year of Uni over three decades ago they handed out FREE student memberships to ALL students. This included the then minority at the time of foreign students studying with us. Read the link above and you will see that peak body anything but anti and they are a stakeholder in discussions.

Australia is also NOTHING to do with your 1776 rebellion we have our own path from the invasion of this country and are still a work in progress like the USA. Your Specious Argument citing craftspeople pre date Engineering as a study and science and date to guilds and such of earlier times. They have little to do with the 21st century and the now established Engineering.

Feel free to READ the actual website of the State I live in and the incoming regs https://engage.vic.gov.au/engineers-registration#:~:text=Overview,a%2Dhalf%2Dyear%20period.

It is NOT PROTECTIONIST at all if you meet their qualification requirements and standards then you are able to be INCLUDED.

[gnuarm]

It can mean nothing if you are willing to work around it.  In the US licensing is done at the state level and some states have various restrictions on calling yourself an "engineer".  Easy enough to change your cards and web site to offer "design services" without using the term "engineer" or "engineering".  It's

This will not make you eligible to stamp drawings if work in construction for instance. You will be out of any official approval business. Not being a registered professional engineer will severely limit what you can legally do. So yes, that means a lot.

That's rather a "duh".  If you were doing that kind of work before this law it means you were already registered or approved in some way.  Likely nothing has changed and these people constitute the set of preordained registered engineers who don't need to run the gauntlet to get registered. 

I believe the objection is to those who have been doing design work as "engineers" and now won't be able to use that title, "engineer".  I recall hearing about someone who got in big trouble in Texas for this sort of thing.  He had worked as an engineer for years, moved to Texas and got charged with violating the law that required being registered to do "engineering" work.  All he needed to do was say he was simply doing design work, not engineering, but they caught him because he didn't know... 

As I said, mox nix.

[floobydust]

I think it goes back to the early 1800's when anyone could claim to be an engineer. Buildings and railroad bridges etc. collapsed and it was a problem back then, nevermind the Sydney Opal tower fiasco today. Australia is likely trying to copy other parts of the world with the Act.

The disadvantage is high membership dues ($415/year) in order to support the fat and overhead of a bloated association that largely does nothing for the profession beyond registration and licensing. Here the engineering association keeps trying to include software engineering, "stamped" so you are responsible for software that can cause injury or loss, even though software correctness is not provable.

As I've said many times, there still is a problem in the profession in that anyone can call themselves "engineering manager" or "engineering director" etc. If you use the word "engineer" in your job title or company's website for services provided, the engineering association will come after you unless you are licensed and have a Permit to Practice.
Many times engineers have non-engineers for managers who push around the noobs and direct them to skirt around safety and exploit loopholes, to rush a project and save  money.

When the bridge collapses, they go on a head hunt for whoever reviewed and stamped the drawings, as they should. But when the planes crash, nothing was really done for Boeing's corruption in the 737 Max's engineering.
Engineers are still the fall guy for corrupt leadership or a corporation that will not let them design/test properly. Tesla seems to be able to make mistakes with autonomous vehicle S/W and nobody goes to jail there.

So registering engineers will not really guarantee safe buildings, bridges, products etc. Defective/corner-cutting manufacturing can also generate unsafe products.
Registration would be a small step forward at great expense to engineers. But still zero consequences for the CEO and other usual crooks.

[beanflying]

Don't confuse 'voluntary' membership or not in Engineers Aust with this State Government registration. EA is and is always likely to remain independent and not a requirement of the Government scheme application. I only included their seemingly broad support for this scheme going forward for context. As we are a Commonwealth of States in particular it is already Difficult for a National Body to try and act in any oversight role at State level.

There is no final cost per year and no application form or requirements in print yet for the Victorian plan and as far as I am aware only Queensland has adopted this sort of scheme https://ablis.business.gov.au/service/qld/certificate-of-registration-as-a-registered-professional-engineer/4331

Quick look at the costs of a few hundred $AUD is less than a lot of other Professions for Government Registration. Even the Sparky in Qld gets slugged $400+

Those most effected by the Vic proposal will be sole Engineers as they need to comply individually, companies will not require individual employees to be Registered members of the State scheme but the Companies will need to apply.

[james_s]

I guess it depends on what "engineer" means. I can call myself an engineer and indeed my employer does. What I can't do is call myself a P.E. or do the things that require a P.E. to do.

[gnuarm]

I guess it depends on what "engineer" means. I can call myself an engineer and indeed my employer does. What I can't do is call myself a P.E. or do the things that require a P.E. to do.

The terms and the regulations vary of course.  It all depends on where you choose to commit your crimes.

[Kerlin]

I my self am a non degree Electronics Engineer, thrashed every degree carrying engineer I ever met in my time.

One of my methods of gaining contract work was to pick up their uncompleted projects and demand a high price for finishing them, worked many times as the poor manufacturer was often holding an overdue purchase order from a buyer.
In those cases just show up with a completed prototype and name the price.

Your assuming that degree people have a good name in the Electronics industry, I would check on that.
At the moment employers prefer non degree Engineers, as they have the biggest name in the Electronics industry.
As one of my overseas distributors used to say to when he wanted to put some one down " He would have to have a degree that fellow, wouldn't he ?".

These regulatory type moves are not competitive and dumb they only retard the country as others always find very very simple ways around them.
There are other qualifications of much much greater value than a degree.
If you are good at what you do you don't need protection, you'll be in high demand.

[beanflying]

I my self am a non degree Electronics Engineer, thrashed every degree carrying engineer I ever met in my time.

snip

To me these regulation type moves are not comparative and dumb they only retard the country as others always find very very simple ways around them.
There are other qualifications of much much greater value than a degree.

The best people to work with in 'some' circumstances when I had a real job were Diploma Qualified Engineers with mining or heavy industry backgrounds that started on the floor or underground. The level of BS dropped and the ability to 'yep, sure, we can make it work' went up. When I was starting Engineering way back when the last of the 'Engineering Cadetships' were going the way of the dodo too. These were an Apprenticeship, sweeping factory floors and starting a Degree at the same time. Sad but these would result in competent humans and better Engineers at the end.

That does not make these rules a bad thing but what it will likely mean in time that tagging yourself 'Engineer' in Oz won't be allowed. Your working in the Engineering field is not likely to change for you just the title (still not happening tomorrow or even next year) unless you go out and try and hang your own shingle out. The reality is most 'Engineers' in Oz tended to finish up managing people not nuts and bolts jobs so does the tag 'Engineer' matter?

[Kerlin]

OK I will spell it out - It wont help I have seen some who simply employ a qualified person for the same price as a cleaner.
We are in a global environment now and we better wake up to it.

What happens when you employer insists you sign documents on the basis of some of your licenses and you know the job doesn't comply?
You are personally responsible for the life of the product/job, are you sure we want that.
In the days when I was applying for jobs with employers I put all my licenses on my resume and never mention them again , because I have had that experience before.

[Kerlin]

Ah ha had a brilliant flash over dinner.
I been around to long and and have worked it out.

Say, just saying only, there is a mythical place called the land of Oz. You know the wonderland where Alice lives.
And in this land sit two people in their ivory castle.
Things are not too good in this fiefdom and things need fixing fast. There is a big event coming up in November.

Person M:  How are we going to fix this, think the normal way will be OK ?
Person X:  Yes that one always works.
Person M:  Good, I think this time I will do it by making a regulatory change to actually cause a perceived lack of skilled labour and then we will make our 
announcement.
Person X:  Yer that’s puts a good twist on it. All the engineer types will think they are getting something out of it. Haha wait till they see what we do.

[EEVblog]

Apparently from the 1st July it's going to be illegal in Victoria to do any electronics design work.
Jon Oxer talks about it here in a live stream here:

[beanflying]

This will apply to engineers providing professional engineering services in and for Victoria.

However, registration for the five prescribed areas of engineering – structural, civil, electrical, mechanical and fire safety – will be phased-in over the following two-and-a-half-year period.

So there is to my read nothing that will stop Electronics design work. Like is current plenty of Techs and non qualified people do 'design'. It is also not an instant timeline it is phased in.

I fail to see anything here that is an issue other than providing 'professional Engineering services' when not being qualified and registered. There is nothing in the proposed regs stopping anyone from developing X product.

Most respondents agreed the guidelines on providing professional engineering services did not require any additional information or amendment. However, based on feedback from respondents that disagreed, the guidelines would benefit from expanding the descriptions of the terms ‘engineering’, ‘service’ and ‘engineering service’. Respondent feedback also suggests the guidelines would be improved by the inclusion of an additional section that assists readers to distinguish professional engineering services from other services, including other engineering services which are not intended to be captured by the Act, such as those provided by technologists and technicians.

[Someone]

Apparently from the 1st July it's going to be illegal in Victoria to do any electronics design work.

Stirring up bullshit?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/professional-engineers-in-victoria-must-now-be-licensed/?all
Electronics design work is not part of those law changes.

[gnuarm]

Apparently from the 1st July it's going to be illegal in Victoria to do any electronics design work.
Jon Ozer talks about it here in a live stream here:

Six minutes in and he still hasn't started talking about it.  Where in the two hour video does this happen?

[beanflying]

Apparently from the 1st July it's going to be illegal in Victoria to do any electronics design work.
Jon Ozer talks about it here in a live stream here:

Six minutes in and he still hasn't started talking about it.  Where in the two hour video does this happen?

Much as I have a lot of time for Jon he has done 'paid Engineering work' as part of his income as a sole operator without a Degree so he has a vested interest in complaining about the Regs. Skill and knowledge wise he would run rings around 90% of degree qualified people but he lacks the bit of paper.

[gnuarm]

Apparently from the 1st July it's going to be illegal in Victoria to do any electronics design work.
Jon Ozer talks about it here in a live stream here:

Six minutes in and he still hasn't started talking about it.  Where in the two hour video does this happen?

Much as I have a lot of time for Jon he has done 'paid Engineering work' as part of his income as a sole operator without a Degree so he has a vested interest in complaining about the Regs. Skill and knowledge wise he would run rings around 90% of degree qualified people but he lacks the bit of paper.

So you are saying he has done engineering work, but he has never done electronics design?  Shame, he sounds like he should be good at it. 

Until someone explains exactly how the regulations define "engineering work", I don't think we should get too excited about it. 

Even so, there are no small number of nurses who could serve as doctors for many purposes, but do you want them prescribing drugs they have no training about?  Or performing surgery? 

Regulation may stop a small number from hanging a shingle who could do a good job of most things, but when being qualified is important don't you think regulation is important?

[beanflying]

The bulk of what he does is design work. I would call him prodigious   

https://www.freetronics.com.au/ is 'some' of his design work and some more here https://www.superhouse.tv/products/

It is the sole operators like Jon that might feel some impact from the regs due to a lack of qualifications. People like Kerlin will most likely come under the umbrella of the companies they work from and as such nothing will change apart from likely the job title.