Are micro controllers a help or hindrance to learning electronics?

[gb243]

Everyone must start somewhere but I do feel concern that given a problem so many automatically reach for a micro controller for a solution. What do they learn in the process? You want to blink an LED. OK, well: -

1.   Use an Arduino.
2.   Use only an analogue IC
3.   Use two transistors.
4.   Use only one transistor.
5.   Use only an LED with no active or passive components.

Using google number 4 is out there but easy to find. Number 5 can probably still be found in use in several homes. Personally, I feel this is a way to extend knowledge and pick up a range of physics and electronic concepts. Am I being reasonable or just a grumbling old fart (which I am anyway)?

[ataradov]

They learn a useful skill (programming). It does not matter if you can blink an LED with a single transistor if no one actually needs this. Sure, there are some jobs that will require purely analog solution, or some deep RF black magic, but most things in the hardware world right now are about programming. No matter if you like it or not.

Also, in many cases it is cheaper to put a micro than to figure out analog solution.

PS: I've seen similar grumblings from people making digital clocks. "I can make a clock that uses only 74xx logic, and all those kids just put a way overpowered micro and call it 'electronics'". Nevermind that a dozen 74xx ICs cost like 5 of those overpovered MCUs and the clock does not have nearly as many functions.

[gb243]

I am not anti digital. It is an analogue world out there. Only knowing how to write C programs can mean that as soon as you have to interface with anything real you hit an intellectual brick wall. Impedance, velocity factor, transmission line theory, electro magnetics, op amps etc. are just a few words that describe a deep field of knowledge essential for an engineer.

A single transistor oscillator may not be a practical solution but knowing how it works at the circuit and atomic scale is knowledge that can be applied elsewhere. A product is almost never just an arduino. It may have a controller but there will be analogue sections. Probably several hundred million Chinese children can program in C. That offers no advantage in the real world.

[ataradov]

I am not anti digital.

And I'm not anti-analog. Picking up typical analog issues that software person will face in a typical MCU applications (impedance mismatch and all that stuff), is way easier than picking up programming for an analog person.

Now, if you actually do hardware design as a job, then balance shifts the other way - you do need to know a lot of analog stuff, and some marginal programming just to know what programmers expect.

And if you do both things professionally, then you are doing something wrong. Unless you are a solo full-cycle consultant.

[Berni]

Well depends on what you do with it. If you buy an arduino and a LCD shield to plug in to it so you can draw pretty stuff on it means you learned absolutely nothing about electronics, but you did probably learn quite a bit about programming.

This is not inherently a bad thing. Not everyone is interested in electronics but might be in to programing. But as soon as they hook up something as simple as a switch to an arduino they will learn about pullups and pulldowns and such.

While most non electronics people that buy an arduino don't get far past blinking a LED, but a small percentage of them might pick up a soldering iron for the first time that otherwise wouldn't.

At the end of the day one has to have enough interest to get anywhere.

[imidis]

I think it depends on the person I think. I'm more interested in the hardware side of things, I've had some of the basics for a while, but didn't go too much beyond component repairs (bad capacitors, inverters, things like that). I have learned a bit messing around with an arduino, if you need to power something higher than 40mA you learn quickly about transistors. And yeah, pulling high or low, even for i2c addresses. And I think daves right, you learn the most when things go wrong. But it just depends on the person and what they want to do.

[AndyC_772]

Don't forget, a microcontroller is the way to solve many problems that might have been solved using discrete parts 20 years ago. Learning to use one is learning electronics.

A microcontroller != a 'duino (of whatever flavour). The range of microcontrollers out there far, far exceeds the number which have been conveniently mounted onto a PCB and wrapped up in a step-by-step UI, and so does the range of problems which can be correctly solved using one. Please, don't confuse the two; I strongly recommend graduating from and becoming independent of the whole 'duino way of thinking at the earliest possible opportunity.

Let me give a real example. Not so long ago I was designing a board which was exceptionally tight for space, and which needed to deliver a couple of digital outputs given some analogue inputs.

The 'discrete' way of doing it would have needed comparators, half a dozen discrete resistors, some D-type latches and a handful of other logic gates. The 'old-school' would no doubt have nodded in approval of a design using these simple building blocks.

Today, though, it's just a bad solution in every measurable way.

A much better solution was an off-the-shelf microcontroller; a single chip containing the comparators, a DAC to set their threshold, and even some configurable 'hard' logic to process the digital signals independently of the CPU core. One chip, nine square millimetres, and the same cost as the comparator would have been on its own.

[Rerouter]

Generally its when you run into the limitations of the micro controller you prefer that you learn the most about the many other fields of electronics.

[tszaboo]

Generally its when you run into the limitations of the micro controller you prefer that you learn the most about the many other fields of electronics.

Yes. The issue with microcontrollers, is simple. If you only have a hammer, everything is a nail. It is not the only solution for all problems, but since it requires less thinking, people go that way. I very much like to solve problems with logic chips or ASICs. Because you solder it together and it works. And you dont need to worry about bootloaders, compilers, board support packages. i would replace a micro with a comparable ASIC every time, because when I did that, it is someone else's problem. Yet, 90% of the projects I do contain a microcontroller. It is when you say "I need a second microcontroller" that is when you are supposed to think.

[jonovid]

« on: Today at 06:00:38 PM » Insert Quote
Everyone must start somewhere but I do feel concern that given a problem so many automatically reach for a micro controller for a solution. What do they learn in the process? You want to blink an LED. OK, well: -

1.   Use an Arduino.
2.   Use only an analogue IC
3.   Use two transistors.
4.   Use only one transistor.
5.   Use only an LED with no active or passive components.

Using google number 4 is out there but easy to find. Number 5 can probably still be found in use in several homes. Personally, I feel this is a way to extend knowledge and pick up a range of physics and electronic concepts. Am I being reasonable or just a grumbling old fart (which I am anyway)?

my Answer is use two transistors.

electronics is like a library.
you can read the whole book.
read one or two chapters in the book
or read just one page.
but few have ever read the whole library on electronics.
why we have forums & google, to help . 

Arduino is like the commodore 64 was back in the 80s
IMO  transistors then move to 555 ic's before Arduino

[@rt]

Programming has plenty of merit on it’s own,
but I don’t allow anyone around me to confuse plugging some boards together with electronics, or “making”.
There are Youtube videos out there titled “Project bla bla”, and “Biuld log of bla blah” that are simply plugging boards together.
They should just call that programming and be due proper merit.

Now if you’re going to use a bunch of logic to solve a problem in the digital domain that could have been solved with a much cheaper micro,
well that’s plain dumb, unless you were actually making a point of doing that, or not already proficient with programming,
and the project wasn’t worth the learning curve.

Admittedly, if I wanted to flash an LED I’d go for a 555, but I’d also have nothing to learn by making a transistor flip flop.

[jonovid]

Programming has plenty of merit on it’s own,
but I don’t allow anyone around me to confuse plugging some boards together with electronics, or “making”.
There are Youtube videos out there titled “Project bla bla”, and “Biuld log of bla blah” that are simply plugging boards together.
They should just call that programming and be due proper merit.

if I have a goal to make a unit do a job, then I will look at plugging some boards together off the shelf, so it saves time & money.
however learning electronics so you can design from scratch is another matter entirely. learning is IMO slow and time consuming.
but the reward is worth the effort in the long run IF your still young..

[CJay]

They're one gateway to learning electronics, there are plenty of routes to analogue through microcontrollers.

Coding is becoming a very necessary skill these days, as others have noted, it can be trivial to achieve results with a micro that would take many dozens of jellybean chips so why not use them, the electronics skill comes in integrating the micro into a larger system which has control or input from other devices which will also need electronics skills to implement.

[rstofer]

Feature creep!

It is seldom interesting to just blink an LED.  Sooner or later there will be a switch to change the pulse rate.  Then there will be an analog pot to linearly change the pulse rate.  Then then will be an LCD to display the % of on-time so intensity versus on-time can be computed.  And so on...

I haven't used a 555 in 30 or 40 years and will probably never use one again.  That's just the way it is in my little corner of the electronics sandbox.  Clearly, others use the chip much more often.  That's ok, it's a pretty big sandbox.  There's room for everybody!

Interesting projects have a UI of some kind.  Often it is easier to implement the UI with a uC.

[jonovid]

Coding is becoming a very necessary skill these days, as others have noted, it can be trivial to achieve results with a micro that would take many dozens of jellybean chips so why not use them, the electronics skill comes in integrating the micro into a larger system which has control or input from other devices which will also need electronics skills to implement.

Coding is a very necessary skill in video games too.  like the  development of the next Flappy Bird. 
the dividing line between the amateur and the professional in field of computer science & also electronics.
as a hobbyist its the one thing I did poorly at, when I was in school. advanced Mathematics! or Maths! 

[mrpackethead]

digital is just a special case of analogue anyway.

[SL4P]

This is quite a good question - based on what I see on the Arduino forum...

There are an incredible number of newbies that buy a uC board, some shields and expect it to assemble itself into a completed working project, then realise they have no idea how to select a power source, connect a switch and LED - then are totally confused by blocking code (e.g. delay).

Writing code is the last skill they learn, closely followed by hardware and writing code.

One can't exist without the other.

[CJay]

It is a good question, but how many of them give up entirely and learn nothing compared to the number who persevere and learn, either enough to achieve what they set out to do or get hooked and continue to learn?

I'm happy with anything that helps people learn more, seems rather churlish of some people to sneer at others because they use a microcontroller to accomplish things they'd do with two transistors.

All worthwhile in my opinion.

[JPortici]

i had to make a led strip thingie for a publicity panel recently. i could have gone analog but instead i decide to put a microcontroller and control the whole thing via pwm. Because i anticipated the question that would follow, if i was able to make it do some animations.. and everything was already there. a few more lines of code and voila
analog, digital, depends on the application. it's better to know more ways to do one thing, one solution will never always be the best one.

but one has to start somewhere and then move on. At school i started with both, high level programming and then more and more low level while on the hardware side i started from the bottom. I won't say it's the best way.. but it worked very well with me

[idpromnut]

...
You want to blink an LED. OK, well: -
...
5.   Use only an LED with no active or passive components.
...

I am quite the newbie when it comes to electronics, so this solution possibility intrigued me. I had a look on the google, and found a few posts saying that this could not be done. Can you give me a hint on how to do this?

[MK14]

...
You want to blink an LED. OK, well: -
...
5.   Use only an LED with no active or passive components.
...

I am quite the newbie when it comes to electronics, so this solution possibility intrigued me. I had a look on the google, and found a few posts saying that this could not be done. Can you give me a hint on how to do this?

You can get LEDs with built in flash ICs. So you just connect them up to power, and they flash automatically.
Example:
http://uk.farnell.com/kingbright/l-56bhd/led-blinking-5mm-bright-red/dp/1142543

[BravoV]

Am I being reasonable or just a grumbling old fart (which I am anyway)?

Maybe ..    ... j/k

Facts about availability especially for hobbyist and it's eras ...

1.   Use an Arduino. (or mcu)
Not very sure about time frame, maybe before the 90's ? MCUs basically was out of reach for ordinary hobbyist before that time frame.

2.   Use only an analogue IC
Maybe in 70s ?

3.   Use two transistors.
Maybe in late 60s as transistor became cheaper ?

4.   Use only one transistor.
Mid 60s maybe, as transition from tube and transistor still expensive ?

5.   Use only an LED with no active or passive components.
Not sure about this.

My opinion, yes, it helps, not as a hindrance as technology evolves, and mcu actually is a new method (not all though) of getting thing done and working, especially just to blink a led.

[mc172]

You can make an LED flash with no external components by turning the power on and off manually.

[Ducttape]

You can make an LED flash with no external components by turning the power on and off manually.

You've now become an external component. 

[idpromnut]

You can get LEDs with built in flash ICs. So you just connect them up to power, and they flash automatically.

I was aware of these, but I had assumed that was "cheating" in the context of the original poster