Author Topic: crApple's disposable products  (Read 49327 times)

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Offline T4P

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Re: crApple's disposable products
« Reply #100 on: June 23, 2012, 05:19:57 pm »
That was what i was trying to get across : Once you own a iDevice this is the sort of person you are automatically grouped into or ARE!

1 dickhead of a friend i have kept thinking that android is a POS, NO! He owns a POS android phone that costs 0$ and didn't even look at the bright side of android devices that cost nowhere near as a iDevice and is every bit better

This is the same quality and quantity of information contained in all this other posts: absolutely none. Most of the numbered items on his list are absolutely random (he never even bothers to say WHAT laptop he's talking about), apparently all laptops have the same number of screws unless it's an Apple laptop. As for his ridiculous "evidence" to counter what tjb1 said about Android OS distribution, I seriously wonder how tuned in he even is to technology. It's VERY VERY widely known and been shown by data collected that 2.2 or 2.3 are over half of the installed base of Android. Despite what DaveXRQ's phone got, MOST android phones will never get an upgrade to 4.0. How does he not already know this?

Big idiot IT'S TIME TO WAKE UP! How many actual iPhone 3GS is still actually used? I'd say not many and anyway there are no speed bumps in the software updates compared to the speed bump from 2.2 to 2.3 then to 4.0
Let's talk about raw speed. 2.2 is faster then iOS already how about 4.0?
I'm talking about UI fluidicity that's not speed, that's self preference and 4.0 is now much smoother then 2.3 but still smoother then iOS 6
Sure the 600-800MHz android models won't get an upgrade but that's = 3GS
the 1GHz models (most of them) are getting updates to 4.0

Let me tell you how many laptops i DISassembled
10
Yes 10, most of them are 14 inchers
and i can only remember 2 of them
HP tx2028AU 12"
Fujitsu LH520 14"
« Last Edit: June 23, 2012, 05:38:38 pm by DaveXRQ »
 

Offline timelessbeingTopic starter

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Re: crApple's disposable products
« Reply #101 on: June 23, 2012, 06:16:06 pm »
Big idiot IT'S TIME TO WAKE UP! How many actual iPhone 3GS is still actually used? I'd say not many and anyway there are no speed bumps in the software updates compared to the speed bump from 2.2 to 2.3 then to 4.0
Let's talk about raw speed. 2.2 is faster then iOS already how about 4.0?
I'm talking about UI fluidicity that's not speed, that's self preference and 4.0 is now much smoother then 2.3 but still smoother then iOS 6
Sure the 600-800MHz android models won't get an upgrade but that's = 3GS
the 1GHz models (most of them) are getting updates to 4.0

Can you please explain how this relates to the topic?  I don't want this to become a thread about which phone is better. There are plenty of those out there.

A bit of advice: other people will take your arguments more seriously if you don't rain spit on their face.
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: crApple's disposable products
« Reply #102 on: June 23, 2012, 09:00:14 pm »
i think dave's point about the glass is "apparently" correct, but i'm not sure why people bashing and defending it. glasses do crack allright, the more aesthetical it is the more vurnerable it will be. but maybe this disposable fuss by that lady in the 1st post is just another gimmick (hypnotism) that most people will fall into... those imac maybe not that bad to take it apart at all? or maybe i'm just reading things...

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=457888
http://articles.businessinsider.com/2010-01-13/tech/30018103_1_screen-repair-kit-iphone
http://www.appleiphonereview.com/iphone-repair/iphone-cracked-glass/
http://www.ebay.com/sch/sis.html?_nkw=New%20Original%20Outer%20Screen%20Section%20For%20Apple%20iPhone&_itemId=250226999450

and those hunglow repair kit i believe wont give you the same as original. done that on another older phone. but its indicating, diy repair is possible. rather than $149 for the original repair, not my option, there's no applecare around here (not even "canoncare" centre which device brand i have a bunches here) :P
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Offline tjb1

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Re: crApple's disposable products
« Reply #103 on: June 24, 2012, 02:09:10 am »

So how many Android phones have a glass screen?  How many Apple phones are out and in use?  And its glass, its going to break.  Its a phone, not a hammer...treat it as such and you wont have a problem.  Since you seem to be such a glass specialist you should know that all glass isnt the same, they can have imperfections.  You should also realize you can try a piece of glass 500 times the same way and the 501 time it will break and take another piece and it will break on the 3rd try.  Seems like all you do is blindly go after Apple. 

I have a Macbook Pro and since you appear to know nothing about Apple products besides what you read I will tell you this.  10 screws, the bottom panel comes off and I have access to EVERYTHING...the hard drive, ram, fans, disc drive, cpu, motherboard, wireless cards.  Tell me how many PC laptops you can access everything with 10 screws.  If you also read some more than the blind Apple hate you would know why it isnt *replaceable* in the fact that it latches in and out, they gain around 30% more battery capacity by not having it in a separate unit that is removable.  But like I said earlier, 10 screws and you have access to the battery.  Another 3 and you can pop it out.  Go to iFixit or eBay and you can grab a new battery.  And tell me how many PC laptops get 7-8 hours run time...

You hate on Apple but I can say a lot about the shit Android system...its no wonder the only reason people develop for it is because its cheap.  Always 5-6 different versions in use at one time spread across a ton of different devices that have different resolutions and capabilities with only a handful of the phones actually getting upgraded to the latest version in their lifetime.  My iPhone is about to hit its 3rd operating system upgrade, how many Androids even get upgraded once?  How many apps on "Google Play" will work on every Android device?

Before you go throwing your blind hate around, take some time to learn something.  There is a reason Apple is one of the most valuable companies.  Ever look at the tablet scene?  Amazing how Apple can sell a $500 tablet like candy but HP couldnt sell one until they were taking a major loss on it.  You think your opinions are "correct" but looking at the numbers, you are the minority.

Wrong. The kindle fire sold like hotcakes. 
-Sold like hotcakes?  Thats not even Android, its a heavily(and I mean heavily) modified version to the point where the only way you know its Android is because of Google Play.  Its also $200 and has a lot of perks from Amazon and is built around the Amazon ecosystem.  The only reason it is based on Android is because Amazon would have had to build one if they didnt use it.  The number of apps it can even use from Android are just a handful.  Its terribly slow.  It has no capabilities, sold at one size, has speakers and a headphone jack and that is about it.  The screen resolution is down right horrible.  I owned one for 3 months, I even put a real Android operating system on it.  All it is is a glorified e-book reader.

You are another crApple Evangelist

1)Most android phones even far from apple's price point like the Optimus 3D has Gorilla Glass
- Apple uses Gorilla glass, there are many variables to how glass breaks...I dont know how you can say one glass is weaker without scientifically testing it, point blown.

2)All HTC's now even the One V has Gorilla Glass
- Read above...

3)1.5 is too old, move on. Most of the models have got an upgrade from 1.6 to 2.1 then to 2.2/2.3
- Ok so most phones are stuck on a 2-3 year old operating system even if they release today.

4)MY phone started out at 2.2 then got an upgrade to 2.3 then i too got an upgrade to 4.0
- Without rooting it, the only phones that will really see the newest Android are the Nexus phones.  By the time the manufacturer gets around to porting it, they have already released a replacement phone that will hold them over for another 2-3 months.

5)YOU know nothing about laptops, i only need 6 screws to open up the entire thing
- Oh 6 screws huh, lets see you access the motherboard with 6 screws.

6)1 screw and i can access the RAM
- Another separate panel that wastes space.

7)2 screws for the harddisk
- #6

8)2 screws for the fan
- #6

9)2 screws for the disk drive
- #6

10)1 screw for the wifi card
And those are individual bays, but come off together as a whole piece using the outer 6 screws
- #6

11)7-8 hours? With an extended battery? That's what apple uses, A EXTENDED BATTERY! I CAN LAST 10 HOURS ON THAT BATTERY
- Uh last time I checked, my "extended battery" doesnt make my laptop an inch thicker.  Probably because Apple dumped the whole removable battery idea like I already stated and they gained another 30% battery capacity.  By the way, most batteries outlive the life that a user will keep the computer.  While were on this whole recycling topic, I dont have to go buy an "extended battery" and then throw away my old battery.  Someone had enough brains to figure out how to pack more battery into the computer.

12)I had a long chat with a technician working at a glass manufacturer, most glass turn out the same for 3 inchers to 5 inchers
Unless you talk about your glass pane you idiot
- Oh, in this case how is Apple getting cheap Gorilla Glass??

13) There are only a few resolutions dickhead, 480x320 ( low-end ) , 800 x 480 and lastly 960 x 640
-Yeah, 3 different resolutions across hundreds of different phones with a variety of different hardware components.

And don't start a resolution war about the Pad3, it's the worst abomination ever to come out, people who buy it themselves are abominations
-Abomination, thats why it was the fastest selling tablet of all time.

Blind hate? I watched the whole industry for 10 years since i was 8 so you better not think i'm a "newbie"
Give me a reason why iPhones always HANG for no apparent reason and how the iPad 3 can reach searing temperatures
-No iPhone on stock hardware hangs, show me one that does.  The iPad 3 doesnt reach "searing" temperatures, stop reading the news like gossip.  You falsely think its at a searing temperature due to its design.  It has a processeror that is on par with most netbooks plus an aluminum case which acts as a heatsink, also with no fans and its driving a screen that has more pixels than an HD tv.

Conclusion?
- You just got owned by facts, thats the conclusion.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 02:16:02 am by tjb1 »
 

Offline timelessbeingTopic starter

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Re: crApple's disposable products
« Reply #104 on: June 25, 2012, 04:04:31 pm »
While there are certainly times when they've made decisions almost certainly targeted at forcing consumers into the store (glued in battery, though I'm not entirely sure this isn't more trouble than it's worth for them), others are clearly efforts at getting a certain formfactor.
... what about security screws?

Speaking of screws... for all those who were debating the number of screws in their computers, here's how many it takes to get the various parts of the (non-retina) 2012 Macbook Pro:



I also wonder about the RAM boards. If they're so critical to form factor, why not use cages for horizontal insertion like SD cards? Or put contact pads on them and lay them flat, like SIM cards in phones?

And here's a follow-up article by ifixit.
http://ifixit.org/2806/unfixable-computers-are-leading-humanity-down-a-perilous-path/
(the orange links within are interesting too)
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: crApple's disposable products
« Reply #105 on: June 25, 2012, 04:19:33 pm »
logic BORAT ? was this made for glorious country of kazachstan ?
Professional Electron Wrangler.
Any comments, or points of view expressed, are my own and not endorsed , induced or compensated by my employer(s).
 

Offline jerry507

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Re: crApple's disposable products
« Reply #106 on: June 25, 2012, 04:56:05 pm »
While there are certainly times when they've made decisions almost certainly targeted at forcing consumers into the store (glued in battery, though I'm not entirely sure this isn't more trouble than it's worth for them), others are clearly efforts at getting a certain formfactor.
... what about security screws?

Very cool picture. What I said wasn't worded all that well. Security screws are CLEARLY just their way of forcing consumers into the store. However I think there is more to the strategy than money. As I said, the user replaceable batteries of the older MBPs like I have cost exactly the same as the newer non-user replaceable ones. There is probably some small savings in packaging of the batteries by making them non-user replaceable. IMO the packaging difference is probably largely eaten up by the extra labor it costs to have a tech replace the battery. But it does bring people into the Apple stores and I think that is the entire reason they do it. It generates sales opportunities.

As far as gluing the battery in, I think it's just stupid. The labor cost is clearly much higher and while the battery has more capacity, the cost increase is probably at least half due to the increased labor cost to replace it. I think if they had given it a bit more thought they could have used a traditional screw mounting scheme and saved the customer a bit of labor cost. Glue just seems like such a hack to me.

Other things people complain about like the screen I think are legitimate mechanical design issues. Sandwiching a LCD and two pieces of glass together is already bulky enough. I think there is a strong argument that in most cases you'll be replacing the LCD if something goes wrong, and therefore it wasn't worth it to make the whole assembly come apart. My MBP has the old matte screen, which is literally just the lcd and a metal case. If something goes wrong, they're both most likely going to be replaced. Even if the metal is fine, the cost of the new LCD vastly overshadows the cost of the metal. Now I have seen newer glossy screen versions with cracked glass. The funny thing is no one has ever bothered to even replace the glass. It looks absolutely horrible with more than a few degrees of viewing angle, but it's perfectly fine straight on. They've never considered it worth the trouble of replacing.

The screen is done the way it is to hit a target formfactor, not to try and screw over people repairing it.
 

Offline T4P

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Re: crApple's disposable products
« Reply #107 on: June 25, 2012, 05:02:26 pm »
When it's time to say it's bullshit quality go ahead and say it, you piece of shit  :)

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« Last Edit: June 25, 2012, 05:29:04 pm by Simon »
 

Online tom66

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Re: crApple's disposable products
« Reply #108 on: June 25, 2012, 09:50:47 pm »
So, how do you fix this? Not buy Apple products? That wouldn't do it - there are plenty of other idiots out there -

Maybe there should be some "minimum" repairability(sp?) standard - like all consumables (batteries for example) must be easily replaceable for end users - But the last thing we need is more legislation complicating product design.

Maybe provide an incentive for manufacturers to produce reliable goods - they are perhaps responsible for the recycled goods - oh wait, WEEE tried and failed.

So?
 

Offline SgtRock

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Re: crApple's disposable products
« Reply #109 on: June 25, 2012, 10:21:56 pm »
Greetings EEVBees:

--Not only was the moderated post unnecessarily hostile, it was unclear to me who the poster was talking to, and so may have offended more people than intended. Note that an earlier poster was able to avoid, moderation, by using a common, four letter abbreviation for his angry and profane comment. I think Simon has hit upon a rather good solution by leaving the post up, but imposing a 2 day ban as a sanction. This way people can get an idea what led to the sanction, and not, perhaps, imagine the post to be more offensive that it actually was. Moderation is definitely improving.

--All that being said, I have a question for the posters in this thread, hoping that I will not engender, more wasteful and meaningless hostility, but just more reasoned argument. Does anyone here seriously contend that by making its products increasingly more fortified against even the most mundane maintenance, that Apple is merely pursuing efficiency, and not trying to create a proprietary empire?

--What if you were forced to buy a new car every 2 to 4 years? Or else, take it to the dealership where they could remove the special proprietary glue, in order to do a $300 oil change, an $800 tuneup, or a put on a $2000 set of tires. And if you were to need a new transmission, you could only sell your beloved hooptee for scrap metal and get a new, and very different one, lacking some of the now obsolete features, you had grown to depend on. And used vehicles would be relatively new, few, and far between.

--If all manufacturers were to take up this approach, then, eventually, many members of this Blog who use DMMs and soldering irons, will be consigned to nostalgic fuddyduddydom, working only on quaint anachronisms.

"I could see that, if not actually disgruntled, he was far from being gruntled."
P. G. Wodehouse 1881 1975

Best Regards
Clear Ether
 

Online tom66

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Re: crApple's disposable products
« Reply #110 on: June 25, 2012, 10:33:45 pm »
Both Android and iOS devices suck. Though if I were forced to use one, I would use an Android.

Why, well the biggest problem for me is that the battery life is frankly awful. My Nokia 3510i gets a good week, maybe two, of battery life, and it's about 7 years old, still going well with the original li-ion cell. But most smartphones can only last a day. That's a deal breaker for me.
 

Offline jerry507

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Re: crApple's disposable products
« Reply #111 on: June 26, 2012, 12:15:55 am »
In all this discussion, it is made to seem like Apple replacement parts carry some sort of massive cost difference compared to their "generic" PC equivalents. Of course generic must be in quotes because Apple doesn't operate any differently than any other vendor. Replacement batteries for non-Retina models are 130$ which is actually right in line with other vendors. That includes the cost of getting it replaced FYI. A new motherboard and processor will run you 200$ or so on ebay. That's not outrageous at all compared to other brands.

The fact is you don't get very tight levels of integration and fit/finish on products that are easy to repair. Cell phones aren't this way, neither are tablets. There is room for creativity and excellence, but if you don't think you're getting that from Apple then you sure as hell can't think you're getting it from the multitude of PC vendors who produce large quantities of generic crap with massively varying quality levels. Why do you think MS is making a surface tablet, or why Google made the Nexus One? They know OEMs are "race to the bottom" junk vendors.
 

Offline joelby

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Re: crApple's disposable products
« Reply #112 on: June 26, 2012, 12:23:42 am »
I don't think that non-user-servicability is the primary aim - I think that more compact form factors and design purity are their ultimate goals, and in mobile devices it's inevitable that things become more difficult to work on.

Just look at all the small shops that have popped up to repair screens and replace batteries, and the proliferation of spare parts on eBay. With these new, supposedly unfixable computers - wait a few months for spares, refurbished, and knock-off parts to filter through to retail channels, and for people to write repair guides, and no-one will worry about it anymore.

The non-upgradeable memory is a bit more disappointing, but there are a few good reasons for it - bad third-party RAM and mechanical problems with connectors cause many issues, most users never upgrade the memory, SODIMMs have been around for years and are thus relatively large compared to the chips themselves, and so on.
 

Offline McPete

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Re: crApple's disposable products
« Reply #113 on: June 26, 2012, 06:03:02 am »
Threads like this are the reason we can't have nice things.
 

Online Simon

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Re: crApple's disposable products
« Reply #114 on: June 26, 2012, 06:10:10 am »
I don't follow
 

Offline McPete

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Re: crApple's disposable products
« Reply #115 on: June 26, 2012, 06:37:05 am »
A dismal joke/comment at the state of vitriolic conduct. Feel free to ignore!
 

Offline _Sin

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Re: crApple's disposable products
« Reply #116 on: June 26, 2012, 09:23:44 am »

--All that being said, I have a question for the posters in this thread, hoping that I will not engender, more wasteful and meaningless hostility, but just more reasoned argument. Does anyone here seriously contend that by making its products increasingly more fortified against even the most mundane maintenance, that Apple is merely pursuing efficiency, and not trying to create a proprietary empire?


I'm fairly sure they're doing both. I don't much like being locked out of hardware, either from a maintenance perspective, or a software one, but at least in Apple's case the products are generally good. And on the few occasions where I *have* needed to get inside something to fix/upgrade, it's been possible, just somtimes hard. And they're doing exactly what every single other hardware manufacturer would do, if they could afford it. Apples pockets are just deeper and their top to bottom integration lets them do more.

However some things are definitely more about the product design rather than about making things difficult. The new retina screen, for example, is tough to repair, with the whole top of the laptop being the display assembly, rather than it being a shell with a display inside as a seperate unit. Yet I can see the advantages of doing that, in keeping the unit thin, and not having additional layers getting in the way of the display. Repair possibilities seem largely limited to replacing the whole display, rather than swapping any of the innards, but provided it is still *possible* I'm not sure it's the end of the world.

However using 5-pointed screws? That's just plain wankery.

I hope it's just a phase they're all going through, and once the dam finally breaks on controlling content, they'll stop, because it's an expensive waste of everyone's time, as with software DRM, etc.

Quote

--What if you were forced to buy a new car every 2 to 4 years? Or else, take it to the dealership where they could remove the special proprietary glue, in order to do a $300 oil change, an $800 tuneup, or a put on a $2000 set of tires. And if you were to need a new transmission, you could only sell your beloved hooptee for scrap metal and get a new, and very different one, lacking some of the now obsolete features, you had grown to depend on. And used vehicles would be relatively new, few, and far between.


Well, you're not *forced* to buy a new Apple product every 2-4 years, and they're considerably cheaper than a new car. Computers are generally well supported for a long time. Phones, pads, etc. less so - maybe 2-3 years before you can kiss goodbye to updates (though nothing stops you from continuing to use them as-is). I mean, our household has many Apple products, we like most of them a lot. But I don't think many of them are particularly new. There's an iPad 2, which is over a year old, and thats easily the newest. I like the new stuff they've brought out since, but I simply don't need any of it yet, because my old stuff works fine.

I get that some people *must* have the latest gear, and I envy their money if they can afford to keep up, but it's certainly not necessary. And to be honest, it's not an Apple specific thing. Long before Apple came along, most people I know upgraded their damn phone once or twice a year. Indeed the folks that I know who have iPhones probably upgrade *less* than those who are using Android phones or whatever.

But I follow your general argument. Regularly Apple wave some new shiny thing in people's faces, and it offers a few new features people want, but at the same time, quitely removes some previously available freedom. And once its accepted, everyone else follows suit, and soon people forget that their phones used to have removable batteries. And some people complain, but most don't care because they've never removed the battery from their phone except by accident.

However, I'm sorry to report, but cars are *already* doing down this route. A modern car is computer controlled, and I can assure you they're locked down pretty tight, with the main ECU in a sealed can and communication around the car encrypted. New parts, even relatively mundane ones, are coded to the car and can typically only be fitted by the dealer, unless hacked.

The newer model of my own car has several new features which I'd like, and which are *entirely* software based, with the onboard computer being exactly the same. However if I want them, I have to buy a new model, as the manufacturer will not release an update for cars even a few *months* old.

These things are, of course, hackable - but in the case of a car, you may not only invalidate your warranty, but could potentially run the risk of invalidating your insurance...

I suspect car manufacturers are fleecing individual customers for *far* more money than Apple are.

Ultimately I think that the possibilities for repairing electronics are reducing *regardless* of the deliberate attempts to obfuscate or obstruct. People simply want smaller yet more powerful devices, and that means miniaturistion and integration, which results in modern hardware consisting of SoC devices with only a small amount of supporting circuitry. I think as a result, unless a device is built with maintenance *specifically* in mind, its only a matter of time, even if some companies didn't have their foot on the accelerator.
Programmer with a soldering iron - fear me.
 

Offline timelessbeingTopic starter

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Re: crApple's disposable products
« Reply #117 on: June 26, 2012, 09:36:00 am »
I'm not sure why people are trying to justify this.

I don't buy the idea that sustainability has to be sacrificed for better looking computers. I think it's a convenient excuse for them, and I think it's a value that Apple simply chooses not to pursue. What they choose to pursue, as has been mentioned, is "sales opportunities", cheap build cost, and a protected marketplace. In essence: widen the profit margin. If you think that's okay, and to be expected, then there's nothing I can say to you... just shake my head. Yes, that DOES mean they screw people, and its wrong. And it's not like they don't have the money to do it properly.

Part of the problem is that at companies, such as Apple, the decisions about how to produce, where to produce, and what to do with the profits, is made by a small group of about 20 people. Statistically speaking, a small group of people like this cannot represent the interests of the general public, let alone the employees themselves!

But people love it. They see the commercials and billboards, they work their menial jobs that pay the same or less over decades, and then they go buy gadgets (on credit) that are rammed down their throat every waking minute of the day, so they can unwind with a bit of Angry birds. (or, login to forums and throw fits at each other about who has better glass) Who cares if some emaciated brown people toiled at gunpoint in squalid conditions to make it possible. It's my damn god given right to keep buying shit I don't need with money I don't have! And anyone who thinks we should make Steve Jobs or whoever to take responsibility for the problems they create is a commie pinko bastard, and should be stoned. Money is god! ::)

I don't need a Rolls Royce laptop or phone. crApple can shove it.
 

Offline G7PSK

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Re: crApple's disposable products
« Reply #118 on: June 26, 2012, 09:47:14 am »
My personal choice is to never buy any product that seals in any part of it that is a consumable item, to me buying an iPod or any other item by any manufacturer where this is the case makes as much sense as buying a car with a full tank of petrol and a welded shut filler cap and having to buy a new car when the tank is empty. No one is going to sell me any product where I know in two years or less I have to replace it just because the battery is worn out. Other non serviceable parts would also be a contention in the purchasing decision. To a certain extent I accept that some things are going to require specialized tools and knowledge for service, but it grieves me to part with hard earned cash for any item that is basically one use only and then disposed of in otherwise perfect order other than the need for one consumable item. Also the world can not continue to support the present trend. I also think that the making of of things to last gives a certain satisfaction to the maker, when I build things like gates and railings I like to think that they will be around in a hundred years time it is upsetting to see anything that I have made getting scrapped a few months after it has been made. 
 

Offline Omicron

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Re: crApple's disposable products
« Reply #119 on: June 26, 2012, 10:22:42 am »
For what it's worth: the battery in the new retina macbook IS replaceable. It's clearly listed here:

http://www.apple.com/support/macbookpro/service/battery/

The only drawbacks I can see is that you can't replace it yourself and that replacement is more expensive than it used to be with the older model. But then it's a larger capacity battery as well.

I had an old HP-28S calculator die on me a while back. I bought it more than 20 years ago. No chance of repairing that. You can't even open it without destroying the case and even if you could there's only 2 chips inside that are both custom parts. So this phenomenon is hardly new or limited to one company.
 

Offline SgtRock

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Re: crApple's disposable products
« Reply #120 on: June 26, 2012, 10:25:58 am »
Dear Timelessbeing:

--Well spoken tovarishch, next time don't hold back. Its a good thing that those less expensive phones and computers, are not built from materials and devices, made by Third World slaves, in Shenzhen. Like you I only by the cheaper, built to a price, devices, that are constructed here in the West, and provide no wages for emaciated brown people. I'm sorry, I forgot, there pretty much are no such products. Oh, well, sniff, there goes our moral superiority over genocidal racist companies like Apple, or actually all companies, now that you mention it. Just remember, no mater what happens in the third world, it is always the fault of a western company. If only that amiable dunce Reagan had not pushed over that tottering monolith, the USSR, where the rate of automobile ownership was markedly less than in Soweto township.

"Before I came here I was confused about this subject. Having listened to your lecture I am still confused. But on a higher level."
Enrico Fermi 1901 1954

Best Regards
Clear Ether
« Last Edit: June 26, 2012, 10:30:27 am by SgtRock »
 

Uncle Vernon

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Re: crApple's disposable products
« Reply #121 on: June 26, 2012, 10:55:32 am »
The newer model of my own car has several new features which I'd like, and which are *entirely* software based, with the onboard computer being exactly the same. However if I want them, I have to buy a new model, as the manufacturer will not release an update for cars even a few *months* old.
About the time to realise you may have bought the wrong car. The ECU in mine is configurable, and at a price you can get factory support for various levels of enhancement.

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These things are, of course, hackable - but in the case of a car, you may not only invalidate your warranty, but could potentially run the risk of invalidating your insurance...
see above I can purchase a variety of factory go-fast. Warranty and insurance implications vary by circumstance.

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I suspect car manufacturers are fleecing individual customers for *far* more money than Apple are.
Numerically or proportionally? At least with thecar manufacturer I have optionsfor customisation. Who wants a car or a computer that is nothing other than an appliance. They are tools and should be able to be adapted to individual usage. Not restricted to some dull idea of adequacy decided by Apple, Microsoft or Toyota.

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People simply want smaller yet more powerful devices, and that means miniaturistion and integration, which results in modern hardware
People also want longevity, adaptability and environmental responsibility, you are likely to see action in these areas too. As the personal device market matures.
 

Offline _Sin

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Re: crApple's disposable products
« Reply #122 on: June 26, 2012, 11:59:05 am »

Numerically or proportionally? At least with thecar manufacturer I have optionsfor customisation. Who wants a car or a computer that is nothing other than an appliance. They are tools and should be able to be adapted to individual usage. Not restricted to some dull idea of adequacy decided by Apple, Microsoft or Toyota.


Proportionally. I haven't seen the accounts of Apple, nor of the major car manufacturers. But I can certainly see the likely profit margin in (for example) a replacement screen for an Apple device versus a replacement wing mirror.

And yeah, I bought a car where that's more of an issue than some others. I did so with my eyes open, so I don't regret the choice at all - it was based on what the car would be like to drive, rather than what it would be like to service, because frankly I plan on doing a lot more of the former and not much of the latter. I reckon most people are the same, and I'd be surprised if that trend towards locking out the end user didn't continue in all types of product, at least for a little while.

As to who wants a computer which is simply an appliance, rather than a configurable tool? I would suspect the answer is "most people". Based at least on observing the success of Apple, who are (these days) pretty much built around delivering exactly that, and reap enormous profits.

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People also want longevity, adaptability and environmental responsibility, you are likely to see action in these areas too. As the personal device market matures.

In terms of longevity, I'd suggest that Apple are providing about as much as the market desires. My older Apple gear all still works just fine - it gets replaced when I want/need something new, not because it has itself expired.

In terms of adaptability, I am not sure in what significant way Apple's products are *not* adaptable, nor what the market actually wants.

Apple's software eco-system, though to some extent closed and controlled, is however very healthy and diverse. Their hardware is increasingly "what you buy is what you get", but it is still, generally, configurable at point of purchase (for which Apple charge a princely sum, admitedly). In what way are Apples products not adaptable, in a way that the average Joe cares about? The most blatant example of this seems to be the on-board ram on the latest MacBooks, which I don't like one bit, but beyond that I'm drawing a bit of a blank.

I'd actually be interested to know what proportion of the general public has ever purchased a ram upgrade for a computer. It seems like such a trivial and obvious thing to me, but perhaps not to everyone.

And as for environmental concerns, I would like to know in what way Apple are any less responsible than everyone else?

Programmer with a soldering iron - fear me.
 

Uncle Vernon

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Re: crApple's disposable products
« Reply #123 on: June 26, 2012, 12:37:04 pm »
And yeah, I bought a car where that's more of an issue than some others. I did so with my eyes open, so I don't regret the choice at all - it was based on what the car would be like to drive, rather than what it would be like to service
WTF said anything about service? I can modify the behavior of the ECU to make driving the pleasure no appliance will ever provide. I can increase economy in doing so too. My car doesn't need to be forever configured in the numbskull warranty preservation mode.

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because frankly I plan on doing a lot more of the former and not much of the latter. I reckon most people are the same,
I'd have to agree with you there, most people are too stupid to ever drive well or appreciate the engineering behind a good vehicle. Hell there are even people out there that think front wheel drive is a good thing.

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and I'd be surprised if that trend towards locking out the end user didn't continue in all types of product, at least for a little while.
again your right, while ever the population is over represented by the clueless, nanny mode will be an ever present nuisance.

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As to who wants a computer which is simply an appliance, rather than a configurable tool? I would suspect the answer is "most people". Based at least on observing the success of Apple, who are (these days) pretty much built around delivering exactly that, and reap enormous profits.
I note your concession that the market is unfairly skewed to cater for the clueless and the incapable.  ;)

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In terms of adaptability, I am not sure in what significant way Apple's products are *not* adaptable, nor what the market actually wants.
The market for the most part is too stupid to know what it really wants or needs. Good bucks for Apple, the dark bottomdrawers full of last years models testament to the products lack of adaptability.

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Apple's software eco-system, though to some extent closed and controlled, is however very healthy and diverse.
healthy? for Apple or the zombie clickers content to limit diversity to the confines Apple has imposed?

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In what way are Apples products not adaptable, in a way that the average Joe cares about?
I don't give a flying fig about average people, I'm talking about tools for engineers and others who've evolved past mouth breathing.

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And as for environmental concerns, I would like to know in what way Apple are any less responsible than everyone else?
Non replaceable batteries? Engineered obsolescence for the gullible.
 

Offline _Sin

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Re: crApple's disposable products
« Reply #124 on: June 26, 2012, 01:24:50 pm »
WTF said anything about service? I can modify the behavior of the ECU to make driving the pleasure no appliance will ever provide. I can increase economy in doing so too. My car doesn't need to be forever configured in the numbskull warranty preservation mode.

Well yes, my car also offers me the ability to configure how it drives, albeit within some parameters set by the manufacturer. Fortunately those limits are pretty marginal and I don't find myself particularly constrained by them. I mean it's limited to 155mph, but without the limiter it might do 170. I don't know in what circumstance that's ever going to be an issue for me.

My point, however, was not "all cars are completely locked down". I was merely responding to SgtRock's point as to whether people would buy a car which was not user serviceable in a similar way to Apple's products. And the simple fact is that many cars these days are exactly that and people still buy them.

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Non replaceable batteries? Engineered obsolescence for the gullible.

And yet they *are* replaceable. Simply donate another portion of your hard earned cash to Apple, and they will oblige. Likewise for disposal, assuming anyone actually pays attention to advice not to bin old batteries (or devices which contain them), I'm sure Apple will dispose of them for you. And to be honest they're probably quite serviceable by any vaguely competent non-Apple engineer too. I'm sure it won't take too long to defeat the dreaded glue...

As for being tools for engineers...  yeah, Apple don't really make those. But I don't think they market them as such either, so I'm not sure what the problem is.

Programmer with a soldering iron - fear me.
 


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