A possible way to keep your fridge cold in long term blackouts.

[NiHaoMike]

Given the current energy supply problem in Europe, it is probable that there will be planned rolling electricity cuts this winter. I remember them back in "good old days" in the 70s, and India in the 90s.

This document, which is old but current, shows the effects of the cuts in the UK. I presume something similar would happen in other countries.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/electricity-supply-emergency-code

TL;DR: 19 levels from 0 (no cuts) to 18 (no power). Level 1 is a rotating 3 hour planned cut per day, level 17 is a rotating 3 hours of power per day. In between there planned 6 hour cuts and 9 hour cuts, progressively more of them as the level increases.

IMHO it is prudent in Europe (and that still includes the UK), to expect 3 hour cuts and think about 6 hour and 9 hour cuts.

I would like to see a program where people can elect to get paid to be first to be disconnected.

[tggzzz]

Given the current energy supply problem in Europe, it is probable that there will be planned rolling electricity cuts this winter. I remember them back in "good old days" in the 70s, and India in the 90s.

This document, which is old but current, shows the effects of the cuts in the UK. I presume something similar would happen in other countries.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/electricity-supply-emergency-code

TL;DR: 19 levels from 0 (no cuts) to 18 (no power). Level 1 is a rotating 3 hour planned cut per day, level 17 is a rotating 3 hours of power per day. In between there planned 6 hour cuts and 9 hour cuts, progressively more of them as the level increases.

IMHO it is prudent in Europe (and that still includes the UK), to expect 3 hour cuts and think about 6 hour and 9 hour cuts.

I would like to see a program where people can elect to get paid to be first to be disconnected.

Commercially that has existed for a long time; they got a cheaper tariff.

There used to be a cheap "overnight tariff" complete with separate meter for hones that were prepared to use electricity to heat a pile of bricks in their room.

It is already being suggested that people with smart meters will paid (whatever that might mean) if they don't use large loads in peak hours.

[themadhippy]

There used to be a cheap "overnight tariff" complete with separate meter for hones that were prepared to use electricity to heat a pile of bricks in their room.

Economy 7  is still here,a saving  for those of us who are nocturnal and have it configured so the cheap rate applies to the whole house,not just the pile of bricks

[SiliconWizard]

So uh, it's fun, but also concerning, that threads like this one are starting to pop up... We were like poking fun at all those survivalist lunatics, and now we're slowly but surely becoming part of the movement.

[Someone]

I would like to see a program where people can elect to get paid to be first to be disconnected.

As mentioned above this is already common/routine for large consumers, they lock in a lower supply rate in return for allowing the grid operators/regulator to enact demand management. Sometimes with explicit compensation during the downtimes, sometimes without and amortising that over a cheaper default rate. But, when the events are actually imminent/occurring those people getting the benefit of cheaper rates for this supposed stability/supply benefit to others....
https://www.2gb.com/breaking-matt-kean-tells-sydney-to-reduce-energy-usage-between-5-30pm-and-8pm-tonight/
The politicians/operators ask everyone else to kerb their usage, so industry isn't disrupted! We have the same issue with water, massive restrictions on domestic use while cotton farmers take their "entitlements" despite the poor overall economic return.

Demand management to households is experimental/trial stage:
https://www.energymining.sa.gov.au/industry/modern-energy/solar-batteries-and-smarter-homes/south-australian-demand-management-trials-program
https://www.evoenergy.com.au/emerging-technology/demand-management
But most of the models are "aggregation" where an intermediate operator hides the complexities from the customer (and takes the profits along with the government grants).

Consumers in Australia aren't individually exposed to wholesale pricing fluctuations, so have almost no incentive to reduce peak/constrained use as the marginal cost its averaged across every consumers bill. Rather than being paid to be disconnected, charging a spot rate of $XXX.XX per kWh would make people think twice about the importance of their energy use just as petrol prices fluctuate. The challenge is how to communicate this to consumers in a "fair" way, day ahead? hourly? Consumers railed against time of use tariffs because they were priced with no actual incentive to shift power use unless you had some enormous load like an EV or a pool heater.

Once the monetary incentive is there, then products will appear to address the savings. Hot water storage (and for the UK hot bricks for heating) was common when the overnight off peak tariff made it economic, the exact same technology can be flipped to hot water storage during the day when solar production drives the price down, but there is some unknown/weird blockage in the economic system that continues to not expose that to the consumer.

[NiHaoMike]

It is already being suggested that people with smart meters will paid (whatever that might mean) if they don't use large loads in peak hours.

That's what Ohmconnect does.

[Alti]

but there is some unknown/weird blockage in the economic system that continues to not expose that to the consumer.

That would have required quite a different metering system. Metering is managed by distribution companies and these companies have monopoly over certain territory. They won't earn less or more, rates of monopolists are always dictated by local authorities. From a monopolist's point of view there is no initiative in increasing sales volume and lowering unit price. Economy 101.

[Someone]

but there is some unknown/weird blockage in the economic system that continues to not expose that to the consumer.

That would have required quite a different metering system. Metering is managed by distribution companies and these companies have monopoly over certain territory. They won't earn less or more, rates of monopolists are always dictated by local authorities. From a monopolist's point of view there is no initiative in increasing sales volume and lowering unit price. Economy 101.

It could well be the distribution company preventing this, but metering is not the limitation here in Melbourne/Victoria where every residential customer was required to install (at their expense!) a smart meter.
https://www.energy.vic.gov.au/electricity/smart-meters
Promises of future benefits:
https://www.victorianenergysaver.vic.gov.au/get-help-with-your-bills/smart-meters-and-how-they-work
"Flexible pricing" "Smart appliances" still coming soon, 10 years after the metering and billing system was already in place

[Alti]

but metering is not the limitation here in Melbourne/Victoria where every residential customer was required to install (..) a smart meter.

I meant that if you want flexible electricity pricing, it has to be beneficial for a distribution company (which governs metering) and not that you need to upgrade a power meter and you are done.

A monopolistic market does not act according to free market rules. To get their revenues, they do not have to introduce risky changes, take initiatives or satisfy demand and supply. It is enough they justify the necessary increase in distribution costs and expenses,

unusual conditions are affecting Australia’s east-coast energy market

or

Smart meters are now in place in all Victorian homes, providing benefits that were not available with the accumulation meters.

and they are happy, they get their funds, even if those meters are just an expensive paperweight.

[tggzzz]

A monopolistic market does not act according to free market rules. To get their revenues, they do not have to introduce risky changes, take initiatives or satisfy demand and supply. It is enough they justify the necessary increase in distribution costs and expenses, ... and they are happy, they get their funds, even if those meters are just an expensive paperweight.

Be careful about introducing naive market, economic and political concepts - both in real life and on this forum.

The UK introduced market competition in the form that consumers could buy their gas and electricity from many different companies. The companies, of course, competed on price, and consumers frequently swapped the company supplying their energy.

This year many of those companies have entered bankruptcy, because they could no longer supply the energy at the price in the contract with the consumer.

In order to avoid riots, the government arranged for other companies to "take over" the consumers from the failed companies, including the credit balances that consumers had with the failed companies, even though those balances has already been spent. The consequence is that every consumer of electricty is now forced to pay a much higher price; the daily "standing charge" has risen from, IIRC ~5p/day to ~30p/day. There are much higher per-kWh charges are on top of that, of course.

Hence your contention about monopolies vs free markets is very naive.

[Someone]

but metering is not the limitation here in Melbourne/Victoria where every residential customer was required to install (..) a smart meter.

I meant that if you want flexible electricity pricing, it has to be beneficial for a distribution company (which governs metering) and not that you need to upgrade a power meter and you are done.

A monopolistic market does not act according to free market rules. To get their revenues, they do not have to introduce risky changes, take initiatives or satisfy demand and supply. It is enough they justify the necessary increase in distribution costs and expenses

To be accurate, the Australian market has distribution, generation, retail, all separated. So the distribution company has very little say in the per unit price of energy or how the tariffs are structured/timed (but majority say in the connection cost).

As with the UK mentioned above, the competitive retail companies are falling over on their own as they sold power without the futures to lock in the price. Prices went up more than anyone was expecting and now the small retailers are both losing money and running out of liquidity (going bankrupt).

[Alti]

The UK introduced market competition in the form that consumers could buy their gas and electricity from many different companies.(..)Hence your contention about monopolies vs free markets is very naive.

The UK introduced market competition between consumers and producers. This has nothing to do with distributors. Distributors are monopolists over their territory.

I meant that if you want flexible electricity pricing, it has to be beneficial for a distribution company (which governs metering)(..)

I think that the misunderstanding here comes from beliefs the energy distribution, with power grid limitations, its maintenance, upgrades (and metering system) is controlled by producers and consumers according to the rules of free market.

[tggzzz]

The UK introduced market competition in the form that consumers could buy their gas and electricity from many different companies.(..)Hence your contention about monopolies vs free markets is very naive.

The UK introduced market competition between consumers and producers. This has nothing to do with distributors. Distributors are monopolists over their territory.

How could that be otherwise?

Or are you proposing duplicating transmission infrastructure?

[SiliconWizard]

Indeed. Many large-scale infrastructures are monopolistic by nature. That can't be otherwise. And that is exactly where the free competition fantasy for those markets begins. It's the same shit everywhere in the EU since competition was forced upon EU members for absolutely EVERYTHING, even markets for which it didn't make much sense at all, and the nonsense is exacerbated in Europe for the simple reason that european countries are small (compared to the USA at least, for instance) and thus can't individually handle infrastructures of different parts of the country. Just not possible.

What this brought was a bunch of energy providers that just jumped on the bandwagon to get their share, and with very little to zero added value, since what they are doing is just resell energy that they are buying from "monopoles" anyway. Very efficient. So to make a difference, they just cut their operating costs as much as possible and even so, that often ends up not being viable long term so a number, if not most of them, are bound to go bankrupt. That's just a completely fucked-up and artifiial economic system that defies common sense.

So anyway, true competition can make things more resilient, but this artifical form of competition is never going to. There's still a "single point of failure", and since the handling of energy matters is fully in the hands of politics/states, it's never going to follow rules of a free market either.

[james_s]

Normally I would say that competition is always a good thing, but for something like electricity which is delivered on a national grid it has never made any sense to me and I'm glad I don't have to fuss around with choosing an electricity supplier. It all comes from the same generating plants and is distributed over the same infrastructure so what is one choosing? A billing service?

[Someone]

It all comes from the same generating plants and is distributed over the same infrastructure so what is one choosing? A billing service?

The theory being that smaller retail margins and "novel" tariffs would not exist if there was a monopoly retailer...
Reality is that the profit has shifted to the active market (speculation and financial instrument liquidity in generation) and the public are no better or worse off. Where before a massive vertical conglomerate (government owned or not) would be taken to task if they raised prices while making record profits, now its spread across a complex series of opaque transactions/companies and the general public cant see who to blame.

It's not coming from the same generating plants, as there are many "players" at that end who are enjoying the wholesale market they can manipulate with synthetic shortages, removing the cheapest energy sources increases their profits.

[ryan_zheng]

I would say a generator with a large AC portable power station would be best for this. Or use generator and dedicated battery and inverter. In this setup you hook the fridge and other low wattage appliances that require continuous power to the battery power station, other large loads to the generator, and connect the charging input of the power station to the generator as well. This way you only fire up the generator when using very large loads or when noise is not a concern. Fridges can be easily powered by the battery whenever generator is out.

Also I'm surprised nobody has mentioned propane fridge(fuel gas refrigerator). These are propane powered and are mainly for RV use but many also accept mains power or 12~24V DC power. These use absorption refrigeration and use heat as energy source so both a propane flame or a electric heater can power these. If you don't have a lot of other appliances to justify a generator you can use on of these. Use electric when there is power, and switch to propane when power is out.

EDIT: sorry for my blindness and stupidity. It was mentioned, twice, on the 1st page

[NiHaoMike]

I would say a generator with a large AC portable power station would be best for this. Or use generator and dedicated battery and inverter. In this setup you hook the fridge and other low wattage appliances that require continuous power to the battery power station, other large loads to the generator, and connect the charging input of the power station to the generator as well. This way you only fire up the generator when using very large loads or when noise is not a concern. Fridges can be easily powered by the battery whenever generator is out.

Delta recently came out with a portable battery system with matching automatic start generator. But if the generator is going to be infrequently used which is the case in most areas, it would make more sense to have a car double as the generator.

Also I'm surprised nobody has mentioned propane fridge(fuel gas refrigerator). These are propane powered and are mainly for RV use but many also accept mains power or 12~24V DC power. These use absorption refrigeration and use heat as energy source so both a propane flame or a electric heater can power these. If you don't have a lot of other appliances to justify a generator you can use on of these. Use electric when there is power, and switch to propane when power is out.

The efficiency is pretty poor, a regular refrigerator running from a generator would get similar or better efficiency.

[ryan_zheng]

The efficiency is pretty poor, a regular refrigerator running from a generator would get similar or better efficiency.

Indeed, but if the OP doesn't need anything else to be powered electrically apart from the fridge, a propane fridge may be suitable. So that they will not need any backup electrical power source, and a gallon of propane would last a really long time powering that fridge.

In the case someone already have gas lantern, gas cooktop/oven and gas water heater with battery ignitor, a propane fridge would really make sense here.

[Someone]

Also I'm surprised nobody has mentioned propane fridge(fuel gas refrigerator).

Twice on page 1, it got there really quickly!

anyone with any sense would be getting a gas powered fridge for that, as already hinted at:

Crosley Icyball

[ryan_zheng]

Twice on page 1, it got there really quickly!

I must have been blind. Went through it again, guess the word "gas" wasn't as obvious as "propane" and also I failed to recognize that brand and model name.

[BrianHG]

And that's my point - if you need electric power, install enough PV to supply that. You will thank me later when you actually can keep the fridge running, and not only fridge but some lights, too, and also be able to post on EEVBlog forum, and even possibly use some modest amount of hot water which is hugely convenient. And having to start the gasoline genset much more rarely is definitely worth it. Of course for totally off-grid, it would be hard to completely avoid that.

I thought about an entire house AC backaup battery system, but it's just not practical. It would have to huge and expensive, and requires extra cost in compliant installation etc.
So I thought a hybrid inverter with a smaller battery pack would do nicely for emergency power, as well as reducing by daily usage. The hybrid inverters have an emergency main output of a few kW that can power fridges and essential gear if needed.

I guess this comment didn't age too well now that Mr. EEVblog ended up getting a complete battery system for his house...

[Someone]

And that's my point - if you need electric power, install enough PV to supply that. You will thank me later when you actually can keep the fridge running, and not only fridge but some lights, too, and also be able to post on EEVBlog forum, and even possibly use some modest amount of hot water which is hugely convenient. And having to start the gasoline genset much more rarely is definitely worth it. Of course for totally off-grid, it would be hard to completely avoid that.

I thought about an entire house AC backaup battery system, but it's just not practical. It would have to huge and expensive, and requires extra cost in compliant installation etc.
So I thought a hybrid inverter with a smaller battery pack would do nicely for emergency power, as well as reducing by daily usage. The hybrid inverters have an emergency main output of a few kW that can power fridges and essential gear if needed.

I guess this comment didn't age too well now that Mr. EEVblog ended up getting a complete battery system for his house...

The economics change a bit when its mostly (all?) given (and installed?) for free. Video views = income for Dave, can spend money to make money.

[Bryn]

Not had a power blackout in ages, but some of these tips would be handy should I ever have another, god forbid (although to be fair, I'd rather fill it up with ice packs or such instead of rigging a bike to it, then again I don't have enough space in my kitchen for one, haha).

[johnk0gcj@gmail.com]

Lest one decide to go with an RV propane refrigerator, keep in mind that these, under continuous usage, do deteriorate
much more rapidly than conventional compressor driven units. I have been a full-time RVer for some 30 years, and have
had to purchase replacements over the years due to the outside elements(salt air) and internal chemicals(ammonia or a
substitute refrigerant) causing the tubing carrying said refrigerant to leak. Perhaps a commercial grade propane refrigerator
might last due to better quality materials and construction. RVs and their components are not of high quality, regardless
of the manufacturers claims to the contrary.