Another deadly 737 Max control bug just found!

[SilverSolder]

If the tickets are cheap enough on the Max...   they will fill the planes.   Passenger anxiety will drop off quickly and disappear entirely, and the fixed Max will eventually be a success...  provided there are no accidents!

Oh really.
Trust has been damaged way too much for this to happen IMO.
Besides, supposing there would be enough people ready to forget about the debacle just because prices are low - that would be putting the burden of operating the 737MAX on the shoulders of the airline companies! That's non-sense. They already lost significant money with the 737MAX so far, how can you think they'll be OK with further cutting their prices just to be able to use the planes? Many would probably rather sue the ass off Boeing until they get compensated rather than lose more money. Just a thought, but what makes you think that getting companies to lower their prices due to Boeing's fuck-up could be acceptable for them?

It is in everyone's interests to fill the planes...  the airlines as well as Boeing.    So, they will sell cheap tickets and make sure some pictures/clips appear in the newsfeeds / social media showing MAX aircraft full of smiling passengers, pretty stewardesses, and handsome pilots.  You know this works, you've seen it many times in your life, I'm sure! 

When the FAA and other international bodies finally approve the MAX,  I think it will probably be as safe or safer than most other aircraft out there.  Can they really afford any screw-ups?   So - I would personally be happy to buy the cheap tickets, should they be offered!

[KL27x]

Just a thought, but what makes you think that getting companies to lower their prices due to Boeing's fuck-up could be acceptable for them?

Supply and demand?

When they start flying routes again, each plane represents a certain number of seats/tickets.

If/when people start to avoid flying on the MAX, the other planes will fill up. Lots of empty seats on the MAX. Prices drop.

It's not rocket science.

[BravoV]

Quotes :

"Boeing and the FAA first said in early January they were reviewing a wiring issue that could potentially cause a short circuit on the 737 MAX, and under certain circumstances lead to a crash if pilots did not react in time.

Last month, Boeing told the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) it does not believe it needs to separate or move wiring bundles on its grounded 737 MAX jetliner that regulators have warned could short circuit with catastrophic consequences.

The source said the FAA told Boeing on Friday that it did not agree with the planemaker’s argument that the planes’ wiring bundles meet safety standards and now it is up to Boeing to decide how to proceed."


Source -> Boeing proposal to avoid MAX wiring shift does not win U.S. support

[SiliconWizard]

Seriously guys. 

How come the whole upper management level has not exploded yet at Boeing?

[BravoV]

You called that a management ? 

They look more like a bunch of stock trader's employees, that their employer is taking a short position at the Boeing's stock.   

[SilverSolder]

When it rains, it pours...   really pours...

[SiliconWizard]

You called that a management ? 

That's what they seem to be positioned at. Not my fault.

They look more like a bunch of stock trader's employees, that their employer is taking a short position at the Boeing's stock.   

Now that you mention that, it's starting to look so bad that you may wonder if some people are not trying to prepare some nasty insider trading or something.

[BravoV]

You called that a management ? 

That's what they seem to be positioned at. Not my fault.

They look more like a bunch of stock trader's employees, that their employer is taking a short position at the Boeing's stock.   

Now that you mention that, it's starting to look so bad that you may wonder if some people are not trying to prepare some nasty insider trading or something.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating, 12% share value drop in a single day is a really-really serious number. 

-> Boeing shares plunge on coronavirus, 737 MAX wiring bundle setback

[schmitt trigger]

Boeing is a major, MAJOR defense and aerospace contractor for the US government.

It is too big and too important to allow it to fail. It will be bailed out.

[coppercone2]

boeing has two divisions, military and civilian, they are isolated. or should be.

the problem is however split, since the air force found booties in tanker aircraft, which should go through the boeing military channels, and also the FAA found stuff in civilian planes. 

This traces the bug to some thing shared. the two divisions should not reuse each others policies and develop independent policies so this kind of thing can be root cause analyzed to a management decision problem. to me this seems like a sign of poor isolation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Defense,_Space_%26_Security

the two divisions are clearly sharing something bad and there is a leakage between them some where. you would think military standards would be tighter and the issue would be isolated to civilian aircraft. So, it seems like metastasis.  are they both fucking the same (sub) contractor and sharing fake cribnotes about vendor reliability rather then checking ? (division transfer, 'off the books' information on how to save money because 'those guys are good'?) evil consultants being used to control both divisions by one party?

or was the shoe issue related to civilian aircraft that was just used by military (I assume they have private jumbo jets for troop transports to non front line bases possibly, to reduce cost since military planes are not necessary for sending technicians to friendly nations?)

[SiliconWizard]

Boeing is a major, MAJOR defense and aerospace contractor for the US government.

It is too big and too important to allow it to fail. It will be bailed out.

The famous "too big to fail"...

Thing is, the company could well be split into two completely separate entities, the defense/aerospace one still Boeing, and the commercial aircraft one... either bankrupt or sold to some other manufacturer. Maybe a chinese one.

[coppercone2]

Boeing is a major, MAJOR defense and aerospace contractor for the US government.

It is too big and too important to allow it to fail. It will be bailed out.

The famous "too big to fail"...

Thing is, the company could well be split into two completely separate entities, the defense/aerospace one still Boeing, and the commercial aircraft one... either bankrupt or sold to some other manufacturer. Maybe a chinese one.

both divisions appear to have a quality problem based on reports of the airforce matching the problems in the civilian one.

so it can't just be split more to clean it up.. problem is not isolated. you would need to keep the machines and burn all the paperwork that is shared between both companies and rewrite it to see if the problem goes away (or fire everyone and get new people if that does not work).. the processes are bad

[floobydust]

You could split up Boeing into 100 pieces, how does that really help with corruption?

Old monopoly corporations, once their culture is driven into a dive by a bad CEO, I have never seen them recover. You can't mandate safety or good design or even honesty.

The FAA has told Boeing the wiring bundles are "not compliant" and it did not agree with the planemaker's argument that the planes' wiring bundles meet safety standards. Let's see how Boeing worms its way out of this one.

[Psi]

If the tickets are cheap enough on the Max...   they will fill the planes.   Passenger anxiety will drop off quickly and disappear entirely, and the fixed Max will eventually be a success...  provided there are no accidents!

Oh really.
Trust has been damaged way too much for this to happen IMO.

Engineers trust in the planes has been damaged yes, company trust in them sure.
But i dunno about the general public.

I'd say over 60% of people buying plane tickets don't even look at their ticket to see what class of plane they will be flying on.
Even the ones who saw the news about the 737 Max issues, 90% of them have forgot what plane that was and wouldn't make the link even if they did read their ticket and saw 737 max on it.

Most people just buy a ticket and think the safety of the plane is someone else's job.
They assume if a plane is in service then it must be safe.

[schmitt trigger]

I agree with Psi.
We in these forums are "geeks" and are interested in everything technical. Not everyone is the same.

My wife wouldn't distinguish an Antonov from a Cessna, and she does fly a lot. International and domestic.

Of course I'm exaggerating, but as long as she is comfortable in her window seat, and arrives to the destination on time, everything else are "details".

[SiliconWizard]

Boeing is a major, MAJOR defense and aerospace contractor for the US government.

It is too big and too important to allow it to fail. It will be bailed out.

The famous "too big to fail"...

Thing is, the company could well be split into two completely separate entities, the defense/aerospace one still Boeing, and the commercial aircraft one... either bankrupt or sold to some other manufacturer. Maybe a chinese one.

both divisions appear to have a quality problem based on reports of the airforce matching the problems in the civilian one.

so it can't just be split more to clean it up..

Oh if that ever happens, that won't be for cleaning it up, but just because there is no other choice left.

[coppercone2]

You could split up Boeing into 100 pieces, how does that really help with corruption?

Old monopoly corporations, once their culture is driven into a dive by a bad CEO, I have never seen them recover. You can't mandate safety or good design or even honesty.

The FAA has told Boeing the wiring bundles are "not compliant" and it did not agree with the planemaker's argument that the planes' wiring bundles meet safety standards. Let's see how Boeing worms its way out of this one.

boeing has multiple ceo's, one for each division, I assume. The BCA is being investigated/restructured, I don't know anything about the BDS. I would assume the BDS has the same problem as BCA if they both find shit in the fuel tanks.



    Boeing Commercial Airplanes (BCA)
    Boeing Defense, Space & Security (BDS)
        Phantom Works
    Boeing Global Services
    Boeing Capital
    Engineering, Test & Technology
    Boeing Shared Services Group
    Boeing NeXt - explores urban air mobility

I thought about drawing a managment flow chart but it starts to feel like a mafia bust (bafia)

[floobydust]

Boeing will have to separate the wiring harnesses on the 737 Max to meet the 2009 safety standard. WTF boneheads ignored that regulation after the Swissair 111/TWA800 disasters and the FAA is not letting that slide. Stock plummeted down to $189 today, back to what it was three years ago or a loss of 50% from the good old days last year. I think that's $120B market cap lost so far?

What usually happens next is investors get fed up and bail, the company can't service its debt load, announces they are losing money, borrows even more money and then the cuts start happening.  Layoffs coming.

It seems like insanity because the new CEO will surely get $millions for a yearly bonus, worth say 100 engineer's wage. Imagine putting that to work developing aircraft.
But they wonder why they can't build new airplanes in less than 10 years, it seems like peak stupidity of the MBA management style.

edit: with my luck the stock is a strong buy, because a war will start over the crude oil market-share battle between Russia and Saudia Arabia.

[BravoV]

Boo hoo ... gimme money pleaseee ....

-> Boeing in talks for short-term U.S. government assistance

[EEVblog]

If the tickets are cheap enough on the Max...   they will fill the planes.   Passenger anxiety will drop off quickly and disappear entirely, and the fixed Max will eventually be a success...  provided there are no accidents!

Oh really.
Trust has been damaged way too much for this to happen IMO.

They'll just rename it.
I believe at least one airline has already done this on their decals.

[SiliconWizard]

If the tickets are cheap enough on the Max...   they will fill the planes.   Passenger anxiety will drop off quickly and disappear entirely, and the fixed Max will eventually be a success...  provided there are no accidents!

Oh really.
Trust has been damaged way too much for this to happen IMO.

They'll just rename it.

If they do, the info will spread in a matter of a few hours on all media and social networks. Everyone will know it's just the same.

I believe at least one airline has already done this on their decals.

What exactly did they do and how did that work out?

[SilverSolder]

If the tickets are cheap enough on the Max...   they will fill the planes.   Passenger anxiety will drop off quickly and disappear entirely, and the fixed Max will eventually be a success...  provided there are no accidents!

Oh really.
Trust has been damaged way too much for this to happen IMO.

They'll just rename it.
I believe at least one airline has already done this on their decals.

That is probably exactly what is going to happen - they are actually making a lot of changes so it is almost reasonable to claim it is no longer the same plane...

[Domagoj T]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/jul/15/boeing-737-max-ordered-by-ryanair-undergoes-name-change

No, far from everybody will know the name changed.

[Psi]

They'll just rename it.

If they do, the info will spread in a matter of a few hours on all media and social networks. Everyone will know it's just the same.

Unlikely. i think you are making the assumption that the general public care about stuff the way engineers do.
They would wait a little while and do a strategic re-brand.  Now would be the perfect time to do it, while the news is all just coronavirus.

[floobydust]

Boeing stock is getting destroyed down 68% in a month over the coronavirus crisis, erasing all Muilenburg's gains over the past three years.
“Yes, I think we have to protect Boeing,” Trump said. “We have to absolutely help Boeing.”
They are crying to Congress for a $60 billion bailout package for the industry 

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeing-and-the-airlines-seek-massive-bailout-critics-ask-about-sharing-the-benefit/