Another deadly 737 Max control bug just found!

[SiliconWizard]

The real root cause is a complete lack of accountability, and these events will happen until that changes.  Judging by the long history of similar events, I'm not going to hold my breath.

Well, I'm not sure there is a complete lack of accountability. A CEO is still responsible for anything unlawful that could happen in their company (at least in many countries). The problem is that there is never FULL accountabilty, so it's always limited in some way. Then it can be very hard to formally prove there was a chain of bad decisions that led to the deadly situation. I have no figures, but I'd venture that most cases of CEOs getting tried are for financial/fiscal fraud, and not for bad management leading to bad product design...

[KL27x]

pt money over lives... more than once, that CEO/management/engineers would be arrested and tried for hundreds of counts of murder.  The same goes for felony charges with investment and other fraud.  But, time and time again these laws are not enforced.  The CEO of Boeing still has his job and is still making millions.

The irony is that Boeing is likely extremely bloated and wasteful, and CEO probably has a lot of ways to improve efficiency and reduce wasteful spending. But budget cuts can be as much to do with politics as common sense. Where can we cut spending WITHOUT suffering major resistance and backlash?

I think the personality type that pursues and achieves political influence is not often coincidental with engineering proficiency. Even though their opinion and thoughts on things like airplanes should have some weight, they are not necessarily the squeakiest wheel in the grand scheme of running a company.

There are only so many ways you can tell nicely someone you're right they they're wrong before you just accept they are gonna do what they are going to do, and good luck with that.

It's the folks that project 100% confidence and persistence that get listened to. A good engineer knows he's human and it's possible someone else either knows more or can get lucky. So he's never going to be as convincing or persuasive.

Steve Jobs was successful because Woz could actually back up him up and deliver.

[floobydust]

It's interesting a cannabis grower just fired their CEO and board chairman over unlicensed growing of marijuana in 5 unapproved rooms.
Nobody died, they just broke the rules for extra product and lied about them to Health Canada. Stock plummets 50% and CEO tossed and loses his $6.2M in stock options.

But here Dennis Muilenburg makes killer airplanes and keeps rolling along as CEO and chairman, $24M in compensation, $1.7M salary, as if nothing has happened. Imagine offering a paltry $50M for the victim fund. 40% of the price of a single aircraft, not even half a plane's worth.

I feel a lot for the dozens of engineers with ruined careers at Boeing and the FAA, after this criminal approach to steamroller the 737 max through approvals.

Boeing fully deserves to go down the shitter and take its investors with it. But they can afford the best lawyers in America, I expect nothing to happen.
There is no deterrence to being a crook CEO.

[coppercone2]

unlike cannabis growers, boeing is in bed with the military industrial complex. license to do anything until congressional hearing

Some man with some astrophysical shapes on his green uniform came in and asked "this won't effect our new missile project will it guys? Dennis has a way of meeting our dead lines and keeping this nation safe.... we can't afford to stir the pot with this little mishap with everything that's going on around the world right now.. "

I know its military branch is theoretically separated, but its all connected in reality I am sure.

[SiliconWizard]

Ahah, for some reason that reminded me of one episode of The Big Bang Theory...

[KL27x]

"You sure you guys are smart?"





I don't watch this show, but then again I hardly watch any show on TV. I think this episode was on last night, in fact. Just happened to see this 2 minutes.

[windsmurf]

Ryanair now expecting Jan. 2020 as return date for 737 Max; issues profit warning and possible layoffs
https://www.forbes.com/sites/marisagarcia/2019/07/29/ryanair-adjusts-expectations-for-737-max-return-to-january-resulting-in-cost-savings-delays


Southwest Airlines cancels all service to Newark, NJ, lays off staff due to 737Max grounding
https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/26/8931447/southwest-airlines-leaving-newark-airport-boeing-737-max-grounded

[Towger]

I think Ryanair are too optimistic.  Their Max 8200s are a different version, which will require additional/separate certification from the normal smaller Max 8.  According to the article the delay will reduce growth, not lead to layoffs.  The Max was grounded a couple of weeks before their first one was due to arrive, they are not struck with them on the ground.  As announced yesterday, Mick is planning on reducing UK flights, which will free up aircraft to expand other routes.

[windsmurf]

I think Ryanair are too optimistic.  Their Max 8200s are a different version, which will require additional/separate certification from the normal smaller Max 8.  According to the article the delay will reduce growth, not lead to layoffs.  The Max was grounded a couple of weeks before their first one was due to arrive, they are not struck with them on the ground.  As announced yesterday, Mick is planning on reducing UK flights, which will free up aircraft to expand other routes.

Yes you're right, forgot to add this link:
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/jul/29/ryanair-boeing-737-max-job-cuts-michael-oleary-brexit

[StillTrying]

UK TV tomorrow night.
Boeing's Killer Planes
Panorama  https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00077cw

Program was a waste of time for anyone who's read these threads, nothing new in it.

[Gyro]

I think Ryanair are too optimistic.  Their Max 8200s are a different version, which will require additional/separate certification from the normal smaller Max 8.  According to the article the delay will reduce growth, not lead to layoffs.  The Max was grounded a couple of weeks before their first one was due to arrive, they are not struck with them on the ground.  As announced yesterday, Mick is planning on reducing UK flights, which will free up aircraft to expand other routes.

Ryan is always too optimistic, he thinks he can treat his passengers like cattle and his pilots and cabin crew like shit and get away with it long term. I doubt he has is overly worried about cutting his routes as long as he keeps raking in the money. EDIT: Or loose sleep over planes he hasn't paid for.

[Towger]

Those 100+ Max 8200s are probably already generating income for him from Boeing, as they payout for non delivery.

It would not be first time Mick 'raped the f*ckers', to use his own words.

[windsmurf]

[Towger]

Nothing in that article about the flight computer issue (286 not powerful enough and bit swapping), which is probably an even bigger job to fix.

[floobydust]

Boeing is redesigning the 737 max flight control software to dual-channel, as it should have been starting decades ago.
Some of us know safety-critical dual-channel systems take time to code and test. This "extra 3 month delay"... Muilenburg may have problems finding competent engineers to write this software. You decimate your engineering staff and then expect magic software finished in 3 months to get the planes back in the air? 

I am pretty skeptical Boeing has the capability to even write and test this software, and on a 3 month schedule is absurd. The FAA and then European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) have to do their tests. It seems surreal, and high risk if an old CPU is tasked with more work and less memory. You never rush and push safety software/hardware engineering.

source: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/newly-stringent-faa-tests-spur-a-fundamental-software-redesign-of-737-max-flight-controls/

[Towger]

I would not be surprised if the 3 months become 3 years, unless they can reuse an existing system from another aircraft.  Even then it has to be fully recertified and this is not some 'simple' control loop which just controls the trim.

Actually sounds like a meeting I attended yesterday.   
Management wants it done in 2 years.  Was not amused when I estimated taking 16++ man years.  Which has based on the actual time it took 3 other very similar projects.  But two years it is, going live with a big bang. Time to jump ship.

[windsmurf]

11 out of 17 Air Safety Inspectors working for the FAA’s Seattle-based Air Evaluation Group either did not have the right classroom training or the required on-the-job training to perform their duties correctly.
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/09/25/faa_737_max_inspectors/

[windsmurf]

Boeing’s 737 Max flight tests underestimated risks, U.S. investigators say
Testing should be done with "average" pilots, says NTSB
https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2019-09-26/boeings-737-max-flight-tests-underestimated-risks-u-s-investigators-say

[SiliconWizard]

This is a disaster... I was anticipating almost right from the start that this case would not be as anecdotical as it first appeared...

[EEVblog]

Good summary on why the 737MAX won't be flying again soon:

[Bud]

Additionally, it is bad timing for  re-entry because of reduced travel demand over the coronavirus situation.

[Stray Electron]

I would not be surprised if the 3 months become 3 years, unless they can reuse an existing system from another aircraft.  Even then it has to be fully recertified and this is not some 'simple' control loop which just controls the trim.

Actually sounds like a meeting I attended yesterday.   
Management wants it done in 2 years.  Was not amused when I estimated taking 16++ man years.  Which has based on the actual time it took 3 other very similar projects.  But two years it is, going live with a big bang. Time to jump ship.

  This sounds like the company that I used to work for. We called it "having Martin babies", i.e.  9 women and 1 month. 

[notsob]

Also have a look at blancolirio youtube for his comments on the MAX, - worth noting was the estimated time to train pilots for the plane

[SilverSolder]

If the tickets are cheap enough on the Max...   they will fill the planes.   Passenger anxiety will drop off quickly and disappear entirely, and the fixed Max will eventually be a success...  provided there are no accidents!

[SiliconWizard]

If the tickets are cheap enough on the Max...   they will fill the planes.   Passenger anxiety will drop off quickly and disappear entirely, and the fixed Max will eventually be a success...  provided there are no accidents!

Oh really.
Trust has been damaged way too much for this to happen IMO.
Besides, supposing there would be enough people ready to forget about the debacle just because prices are low - that would be putting the burden of operating the 737MAX on the shoulders of the airline companies! That's non-sense. They already lost significant money with the 737MAX so far, how can you think they'll be OK with further cutting their prices just to be able to use the planes? Many would probably rather sue the ass off Boeing until they get compensated rather than lose more money. Just a thought, but what makes you think that getting companies to lower their prices due to Boeing's fuck-up could be acceptable for them?