Analog engineering, worth it?

[rolycat]

Ever implemented a DDR2 or DDR3 memory interface, or anything else that relies on correctly matching a high speed transmission line? The days of digital being just ones and zeroes ended a long time ago...

Digital is one and zero by definition, and always will be

Quite apart from any analogue design considerations, this is incorrect.

Binary is composed of ones and zeros by definition, but digital can mean any set of discrete values.

Even at the lowest level, balanced ternary (1, 0 and -1) computers have been built and may in the future replace binary systems. For example, ternary representations could prove more efficient in optical computers.

I'm pretty sure you mean this is incorrect when considering (possible applications of) quantum computing and some Russian tech from the 50's.

I'm pretty sure I don't.

I mean it's incorrect when considering anything. The definition of digital does not mean just ones and zeros.

Personally, I'm not aware of any other applications. Are there and I'm just in the dark here?

There are indeed. Consulting the Wikipedia entry on ternary computers is not sufficient research.

Ternary codes are extensively used in communications, for example in fast Ethernet signalling. The ISDN basic rate interface uses quaternary encoding, with four voltage levels on the line.

As another illustration, ASCII is a digital code but not a binary one. The underlying representation in current computers happens to be binary, but when ASCII is being sent between computers it may well not be.

[Obi_Kwiet]

Digital is therefor easier

Ever implemented a DDR2 or DDR3 memory interface, or anything else that relies on correctly matching a high speed transmission line? The days of digital being just ones and zeroes ended a long time ago...

Sorry but can't help being a bit of a smart-ass here; it still comes down to the 1's and 0's, just like the words 'yes' and 'thermodynamics' use the same alphabet - one is more complex than the other but they use the same building blocks.

His point is that you have to consider a lot of analog design to get it to the point where it is 1's and 0's.

[BravoV]

When every time I read this kind of debate (analog vs digital), its like watching a duel between a brain surgeon vs a psychologist on who has the bigger dick. 

[StubbornGreek]

Ever implemented a DDR2 or DDR3 memory interface, or anything else that relies on correctly matching a high speed transmission line? The days of digital being just ones and zeroes ended a long time ago...

Digital is one and zero by definition, and always will be

Quite apart from any analogue design considerations, this is incorrect.

Binary is composed of ones and zeros by definition, but digital can mean any set of discrete values.

Even at the lowest level, balanced ternary (1, 0 and -1) computers have been built and may in the future replace binary systems. For example, ternary representations could prove more efficient in optical computers.

I'm pretty sure you mean this is incorrect when considering (possible applications of) quantum computing and some Russian tech from the 50's.

I'm pretty sure I don't.

I mean it's incorrect when considering anything. The definition of digital does not mean just ones and zeros.

Personally, I'm not aware of any other applications. Are there and I'm just in the dark here?

There are indeed. Consulting the Wikipedia entry on ternary computers is not sufficient research.

Ternary codes are extensively used in communications, for example in fast Ethernet signalling. The ISDN basic rate interface uses quaternary encoding, with four voltage levels on the line.

As another illustration, ASCII is a digital code but not a binary one. The underlying representation in current computers happens to be binary, but when ASCII is being sent between computers it may well not be.

Ternary signals through ethernet are just that, signals. Digital 1's and 0's still make the operation possible and are ultimately the bottom layer. I was not aware of ternary signaling in ASCII so I can't comment until I've looked up some info.

What makes you think I received my understanding of ternary computing (signaling) from wiki?  Were you being funny of just out to insult?

EDIT: Google isn't helping much as every article I find refers to ASCII being a binary process. Instead of trying to show everyone how smart you are through clever quips, how about educate me? Where can I find info on this?

EDIT2: We are talking hardware here, right? I'm not debating digital code as there is no such thing as analogue code.

[rolycat]

Ternary signals through ethernet are just that, signals.

What's your point? Binary signals in a computer are 'just that' as well. Computers don't do anything without signals.

Digital 1's and 0's still make the operation possible and are ultimately the bottom layer.

They only become the bottom layer at the endpoints, and that is to some degree a historical accident.

You say "Digital 1's and 0's" as if they are the only digits that exist. What about digital 2's and 3's and 4's and so on? We all use them every day.

What makes you think I received my understanding of ternary computing (signaling) from wiki?  Were you being funny of just out to insult?

Well, you did, didn't you?

I was struck by the exact correspondence between your attempt to sum up applications of ternary notation and the wiki entry.

I wasn't trying to insult you, although since your original response to my post was a little snarky it seems somewhat perverse to get offended when I respond in kind.

EDIT: Google isn't helping much as every article I find refers to ASCII being a binary process. Instead of trying to show everyone how smart you are through clever quips, how about educate me? Where can I find info on this?

You must be looking at a different internet to me, since I can't find a single article which describes ASCII as a binary process. Could you supply a URL?

I am not trying to show everyone how smart I am, I was simply trying to correct what appears to be a common misapprehension, namely the tendency to conflate 'digital' with 'binary', even by highly intelligent and knowledgeable individuals such as Dave. If you recall, he stated that 'Digital is one and zero by definition, and always will be'. That's both categorical and incorrect.

EDIT2: We are talking hardware here, right? I'm not debating digital code as there is no such thing as analogue code.

I was using hardware illustrations since this is an electronics forum, not a programming one. The principle is universal, though.

Please don't get hung up about ternary. It's just an example of the general principle that digital information can be represented using a variety of encoding mechanisms, and binary is merely one such.

[StubbornGreek]

Ternary signals through ethernet are just that, signals.

What's your point? Binary signals in a computer are 'just that' as well. Computers don't do anything without signals.

Digital 1's and 0's still make the operation possible and are ultimately the bottom layer.

They only become the bottom layer at the endpoints, and that is to some degree a historical accident.

You say "Digital 1's and 0's" as if they are the only digits that exist. What about digital 2's and 3's and 4's and so on? We all use them every day.

What makes you think I received my understanding of ternary computing (signaling) from wiki?  Were you being funny of just out to insult?

Well, you did, didn't you?

I was struck by the exact correspondence between your attempt to sum up applications of ternary notation and the wiki entry.

I wasn't trying to insult you, although since your original response to my post was a little snarky it seems somewhat perverse to get offended when I respond in kind.

EDIT: Google isn't helping much as every article I find refers to ASCII being a binary process. Instead of trying to show everyone how smart you are through clever quips, how about educate me? Where can I find info on this?

You must be looking at a different internet to me, since I can't find a single article which describes ASCII as a binary process. Could you supply a URL?

I am not trying to show everyone how smart I am, I was simply trying to correct what appears to be a common misapprehension, namely the tendency to conflate 'digital' with 'binary', even by highly intelligent and knowledgeable individuals such as Dave. If you recall, he stated that 'Digital is one and zero by definition, and always will be'. That's both categorical and incorrect.

EDIT2: We are talking hardware here, right? I'm not debating digital code as there is no such thing as analogue code.

I was using hardware illustrations since this is an electronics forum, not a programming one. The principle is universal, though.

Please don't get hung up about ternary. It's just an example of the general principle that digital information can be represented using a variety of encoding mechanisms, and binary is merely one such.

As for the first three statements above, you've somewhat answered yourself. Its the end points that we're speaking of here; I can only assume the last statement to be sarcasm as I'm sure you understood 1's and 0's to mean on and off or high and low (which-have-you) - what do 2's, 3's, etc have to do with anything?

To answer your question (although I do feel a bit goaded here), I first heard of ternary computing a couple of years ago (maybe '09 or '10) while reading an article on quantum computing (the possible venues of). When I did a bit more due diligence, someone was kind enough to point out that only the Soviets successfully implemented something like this but it didn't catch on and lasted less than a decade in the field. So, the fact that the Wiki article mentions the same tech (one obsolete and the other mostly theoretical) supports what exactly? I find it comical that you even checked.

Also, I ask for your direction/assistance and I get sarcasm in return - um, yea, pretty sure we're on the same internet... If not intelligence, what are you trying to show? The reason everyone "conflates" (combines? confuses? brings together? - sometimes a $0.05 is worth more than a $5 word) digital with binary is because 'at the end points' digital is either on or off (high or low).

Not wanting to go into a programming rant explains everything... I simply don't agree, the concepts of software and hardware are not universal. May I ask, is this what you do (work with code)?

My first statement is what you seem to have an issue with but it wasn't meant to be offensive and I don't believe you responded in kind. However, I believe I'm feeding into this a bit too now so how about calling it a difference of perception?

[PA4TIM]

I do analog design ( as a hobby, to bad I found out to late electronics is what I like most because otherwise I would like to do it for a living, my knowledge is high enough I think, but no papers)

But i'm confused now, if digital is about 0 or 1, or on/off , is using a comprator making me a digital designer 

I think there is no strickt border betweem analog and digital when we talk about the hardware design.
Like working with 74LS logic is kind a digital and routing GHz digital signals is almost analog RF engineering. 

It does not matter what the signal is, it are all currents and voltages. I think we must more think of two types of digital designers. The first one is a programmer who is able to connect some basic hardware blocks together. ( like a uP, an LCD, a latch, some external memory, sensors or servo's that can be connected straight to the uP or through a dedicated out of the box " translate/connect" IC.

The other one is basicly an analog engineer but he only works with digital signals, he knows all about bitrates, logic levels, transition times, timing troubles, seperating and filtering signals ect but most of the time he is doing hardware and not programming.

I can transform an analog signal into digital, but when it is digital it stops for me. I can design the microcontroller upin there, interface it, feed it but it will stay braindead because I can not write software. For instance an measure instrument that has a uP in it. I can design the whole thing, but i have to someone my demands for the uP, he then tells me the processor usable, and if it s build i must find someone to write the software.

If I was always using uP's and programming them. i would have designed a program and made hardware needed for the software. I could say I was a digital designer. Maybe ask some advise about the translation from some analog stuff in to digital.

The result of both designers could result in the same instrument. Only the design viewpoint is different.

[merlinb]

It's merely a matter of clearing up the nomenclature- Rolycat is indulging in a bit of harmless forum pedantry. Don't get too het up on it! He's just pointing out that the word 'digital' is not synonymous with 'binary'.

Binary is simply a numbers system that has only 0s and 1s (base 2).

But digital is not restricted to just 0s and 1s. It can use any discrete numbers system to handle information- binary, ternary, quaternary, hex, etc. It is entirely possible to build computing circuits that use more than one discrete 'voltage level' to handle data- not just 0V and 5V (or whatever).
In other words, digital is not always just 0s and 1s (but it usually is!)

Analog uses continues values of course, no number system required.

[rolycat]

It's merely a matter of clearing up the nomenclature- Rolycat is indulging in a bit of harmless forum pedantry. Don't get too het up on it! He's just pointing out that the word 'digital' is not synonymous with 'binary'.

It's true! I'm a pedant and proud.

I like to think, though, that it's pedagogical pedantry with a practical purpose