A shocking discovery

[Pentium100]

IBM has a 22.2" at 3840x2400.  If course, I think it is around $1.5k.     Although that was probably more in the ball park of the GDM-FW900 when it was available.

Nice, and it would show 1920x1200 correctly too. Hmm, I should try to get this resolution on my FW900 - in theory it should display it, at least in interlaced mode
On the other hand, Wikipedia says that IBM T221 needs a special video card and two DVI cables. If it can't support VGA, I would'nt be able to use it with my KVM switch (which is VGA/PS2).
Maybe someday I'll buy something like that - assuming such monitors are still be made or at least the existing ones survive that long.

[scrat]

In the first part of the thread I see many people speaking about natural selection and the fact that a plug without its cover is not required to be safe at all.
I'm not a safety fanatic, but it's quite handy to have a socket which cover can be removed without becoming very dangerous. Apart from the case of damaged parts, for example, with my plugs and wall switches I can remove the covers for painting better (just applying some tape, not even the insulating one, it's just for preventing fingers and brush from going near the contacts), or look for a broken wire, doing all of this with live on. Having to disconnect power would mean not having light in the meanwhile...

When I was for a few days in the US, I found it strange that (in the country that has had the first absurd legal actions about safety) the plugs missed a very simple safety trick that is very common in Italy (and I think in many other countries): an insulation of the first piece of the pins (in the photo of an Italian standard plug, you can see the green part). In this way, it's impossible to touch the part when it's connected to the mains contacts. Another device that can save one (sometimes could simply be a child, instead of a stupid) from inserting any metal nails into the socket is a rotating piece of plastics, which blocks the entering unless the nails are two (in which case I agree with the natural selection idea ). These things cost very little, but do their job, I think they're worth, without being excessive.

That said, getting a mains shock can be quite harmless (especially if there's a GFI in the middle), and there's a heavy unbalance between perception of safety when speaking about electricity with respect to, for example, car circulation.

[IanB]

Another device that can save one (sometimes could simply be a child, instead of a stupid) from inserting any metal nails into the socket is a rotating piece of plastics, which blocks the entering unless the nails are two

I have seen that these are now available in the US as "tamper resistant" receptacles, although far from universal (they have been universal in the UK more or less forever).

[Monkeh]

Shuttered contacts have been required on UK sockets since the late 40s. Sleeved pins since.. I'm not entirely sure, 70s or 80s at a guess.

You can insult the size of our plug all you like, but it's safe and robust.

[PeteInTexas]

Another device that can save one (sometimes could simply be a child, instead of a stupid) from inserting any metal nails into the socket is a rotating piece of plastics, which blocks the entering unless the nails are two

I have seen that these are now available in the US as "tamper resistant" receptacles, although far from universal (they have been universal in the UK more or less forever).

I came across this http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=239225

Do electrical sockets and switches really have to be outside the bathroom in the UK?

[8086]

I came across this http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=239225

Do electrical sockets and switches really have to be outside the bathroom in the UK?

Anything except shaver sockets, I believe so. And as far as switches go, pull-cord or sensor activated ones are fine.

[Uncle Vernon]

Do electrical sockets and switches really have to be outside the bathroom in the UK?

In a nation where bathing is a fortnightly occurrence it would hardly even be an inconvenience. 

[PeteInTexas]

Do electrical sockets and switches really have to be outside the bathroom in the UK?

In a nation where bathing is a fortnightly occurrence it would hardly even be an inconvenience. 

 

[JonnyBoats]

Gee guys, as an American I am thinking that if someone is so stupid as to take the cover plate off the live outlet and start poking his fingers inside then perhaps he has what's coming to him ;-)

I understand there are countries with more stringent safety standards, like at least one Scandinavian country where pedestrians are expected to wear a helmet and reflective gear.

Perhaps it is our wild west heritage, but I kind of like being able to buy a wall outlet form less than $1 and install it myself rather than living in a country requiring me to use a super engineered outlet costing 10-20 (or more) times as much and requiring that it be installed by a licensed professional.

Finaly I ask the question, have you ever heard of a documented case of someone taking the cover off an outlet and being electrocuted in America?

[IanB]

Do electrical sockets and switches really have to be outside the bathroom in the UK?

Strangely, yes. It means, for example, that the common means of electrocution by dropping an electric fire or hairdryer in the bathtub while sitting in it is not possible  (Although people have run an extension cord into the bathroom to listen to the radio and then electrocuted themselves with that.)

It's odd that someone purporting to be a "UK EE" wrote that the UK mains voltage is 220 V. I smell fish 

(Although I smiled when I watched a US electrician on YouTube state that the mains voltage was 110 V and then proceed to demonstrate it with a meter. "Oh look, 120 V, just what we expect." )

[Uncle Vernon]

Finaly I ask the question, have you ever heard of a documented case of someone taking the cover off an outlet and being electrocuted in America?

I'm sure with a bit of checking you'd be able to find numerous examples where people had stuck there tongues on live conductors.   
But I'd have to agree you cannot legislate stupidity away. Every day people find new ways to die in Volvos.

[Ajahn Lambda]

There are plenty of cases where children have stuck things in outlets, which is why these things are sold:







That said, almost all of the AC shocks I've experienced haben't paused tooo buch brain dablage.    Nah, seriously, it tickles or hums a bit, but that's when I'm not creating a low-impedance path to ground with another part of my body, either.  Now, take a small child, and it'd be easily possible for them to take a metal object in one hand, place their other hand on a grounded object, and stick that metal into the hot side of the socket.  I shouldn't have to tell you any more.


IN MY VIEW, no system is inherently dangerous or safe.  It's almost always the humans involved that make it so.  Here in the US, those plastic outlet plugs are just one of those things expecting parents buy (or at least, intelligent ones do), and it's one of a boatload of things they do to keep their children safe.


As for the "which way is up", I personally let the face plate determine it.  If it's metal, the ground pin goes up, because if the metal plate somehow happens to fall forward (off the junction box, due to a stripped screw or mischievous morons), and something is plugged into the outlet, the plate won't become hot.  Instead it will rest on or hit the ground pin FIRST, instead of the chance of resting on the hot blade.  This is how ALL of the outlets on my lab bench are set up, and in some cases, it's allowed for easier cable routing -- many of my power surge suppression strips and instruments have molded, angled plugs.

I'd suggest finding a copy of the NEC handbook, reading it, and understanding it, before thinking that any of the modern US electrical systems are 'dangerous'.


EDIT:  120V is just a nominal value; 125, 115, and 110 VAC are sometimes quoted, too.  It's almost always 123.4 VAC at my apartment, but anywhere between 112 and 124 VAC at my parents' place across the state.  And just because I'm lazy, look at this:

Voltage levels

All of Europe, Africa, Asia, Australia, New Zealand and most of South America use a supply that is within 6% of 230 V, whereas Japan, Taiwan, North America and some parts of northern South America use a voltage between 100 and 127 V. The 230 V standard has become the most widespread so standard 230 V equipment can be used in most parts of the world with the aid of an adapter or a change to the equipment's connection plug for the specific country.

Measuring voltage
A distinction should be made between the voltage at the point of supply (nominal system voltage) and the voltage rating of the equipment (utilization voltage). Typically the utilization voltage is 3% to 5% lower than the nominal system voltage; for example, a nominal 208 V supply system will be connected to motors with "200 V" on their nameplates. This allows for the voltage drop between equipment and supply. Voltages in this article are the nominal supply voltages and equipment used on these systems will carry slightly lower nameplate voltages.
Power distribution system voltage is nearly sinusoidal in nature. Voltages are expressed as root mean square (RMS) voltage. Voltage tolerances are for steady-state operation. Momentary heavy loads, or switching operations in the power distribution network, may cause short-term deviations out of the tolerance band. In general, power supplies derived from large networks with many sources are more stable than those supplied to an isolated community with perhaps only a single generator.

[IanB]

EDIT:  120V is just a nominal value; 125, 115, and 110 VAC are sometimes quoted, too.  It's almost always 123.4 VAC at my apartment, but anywhere between 112 and 124 VAC at my parents' place across the state.  And just because I'm lazy, look at this:

Re: voltage drop under load. When I plug in my electric clothes iron all the lights dim in time with the on/off switching of the thermostat. I discovered this weekend the reason is partly that some dingbat daisy-chained 14 receptacles and 4 lights all off one 15 A circuit breaker in my house  (It's even 14 gauge cable too, not even 12 gauge.)

I've been examining the breaker box (rat's nest) to see if by any chance some circuits were paralleled up on one breaker (doesn't look like it), and looking to see if there are any junction boxes downstream (have not seen any yet). I'm trying to figure out if there is any way of fixing the situation without major surgery to the walls or ceilings.

In the UK lights and receptacles are nearly always on different circuits, and the receptacles are usually on a 30 A ring main. The "dimming lights" phenomenon generally doesn't happen. (This is why UK plugs need to be fused, since the 30 A breaker will not protect a 13 A appliance cord.)

Incidentally I can attest that a 120 V shock tickles or hums a bit (bullshit!), but a 240 V shock is in a different league. I have not been daft or unfortunate enough to suffer one since I was a teenager, but it is really painful, definitely not ticklish.

[G7PSK]

Do electrical sockets and switches really have to be outside the bathroom in the UK?

Strangely, yes. It means, for example, that the common means of electrocution by dropping an electric fire or hairdryer in the bathtub while sitting in it is not possible  (Although people have run an extension cord into the bathroom to listen to the radio and then electrocuted themselves with that.)

It's odd that someone purporting to be a "UK EE" wrote that the UK mains voltage is 220 V. I smell fish 

(Although I smiled when I watched a US electrician on YouTube state that the mains voltage was 110 V and then proceed to demonstrate it with a meter. "Oh look, 120 V, just what we expect." )

The UK voltage used to be 240V  but due to new EU regulations are 230V + - 6% and Northern Ireland is 220V but this will eventually rise The idea is for the whole of the EU to be standardized at 230V.

[siliconmix]

speak for yourself .i'm ripped.i feel tricity at 22 v .

[Monkeh]

Do electrical sockets and switches really have to be outside the bathroom in the UK?

Strangely, yes.

Actually, no. There are restrictions on type and location in wet areas, no blanket 'you can't have electricity in a bathroom' regulation exists.

The UK voltage used to be 240V  but due to new EU regulations are 230V + - 6%

230V ± 10%, actually. In reality this means just about everything is still 240V.

[IanB]

Actually, no. There are restrictions on type and location in wet areas, no blanket 'you can't have electricity in a bathroom' regulation exists.

But if you go into the bathroom of any newer UK house the light will be either be on a ceiling mounted cord switch or the wall mounted switch will be outside the door. There will be no power sockets except for an isolated electric shaver socket. Electric fires if installed will be radiant heaters high on the wall with a cord switch.

I have never seen any exception to any of these items.

[G7PSK]

This is the regulations for bathrooms in the UK now they were changed in 2008 to allow sockets but only under certain conditions, size being one of them and as most UK bathrooms are small ( due to us poms supposedly only having a bath once a year whether we need it or not) you are unlikely to see sockets in said bathrooms.

"Bathrooms
The installation of electrical devices in bathrooms and shower rooms is regulated in Section 701 of BS 7671:2008, and Part P of the Building Regulations. For such rooms, four special zones are defined,[4] in which additional protection is required for electrical facilities:
Zone 0 is the smallest cuboid volume that contains the bathtub, shower basin, etc..
Zone 1 is the area above Zone 0, up to a height of 2.25 m above the floor.
Zone 2 is the area above Zone 1 up to a height of 3 m, as well as the area that is horizontally within 0.6 m from Zone 1.
Older regulations defined Zone 3 as the area above Zone 2 up to a height of 3 m, as well as the area that is horizontally within 2.4 m from Zone 2, from BS7671:2008this is replaced by the term 'outside the zones'. This includes any space under the bath or shower that can only be accessed with a tool.{ref bs7671:2008}
Within Zone 0, no devices are allowed apart from suitable equipment and or insulated pull cords. In Zone 1, only separated extra low voltage (SELV) devices are permitted. Any AC transformer supplying such a device must be located outside Zones 0–2. The minimum required ingress protection rating in Zone 0 is IPX7 and IPX4 in Zone 1 and 2. If water jets are likely to occur, at least IPX5 is required in Zone 1–3. Otherwise, in Zone 3 and beyond, an ingress protection rating of IP20 is the minimum required. Equipment in Zones 1 and 2 must be protected by a 30 mA residual current device (RCD).
Shaving sockets (with isolating transformer) are permitted in Zone 2 if direct spray from a shower is unlikely, even if they are only IP20. Before the 2008 regulations, such shaving sockets were the only sockets permitted in a bathroom or shower room. Since BS7671:2008 normal domestic sockets are permitted, at distances greater than 3m from the edge of the zones, providing the circuit is RCD protected. As the new regulations also require all general purpose sockets not for use by skilled or instructed persons to be RCD protected, this effectively permits normal wiring in the larger bathroom. (Earlier British wiring rules in bathrooms used to be far more restrictive, leading to British peculiarities in bathrooms such as the use of cord switches. The 2001 edition of the Wiring Regulations is more flexible now, placing restrictions on bathroom installations that are now more similar to those in other European countries. )"

[cybergibbons]

The best thing about the old regs was that they were so strict that you ended up wit the situation that a bathroom was either completely by the book, or totally batshit crazy dangerous. I've actually found an extension socket under a bath, with an electric shower plugged into it.

[Ajahn Lambda]

You haven't lived until you've had to deal with knob & tube wiring.      

[SeanB]

The harmonising of the UK mains was done by changing the voltage limits. It was 240V plus or minus 10 percent, and afterwards it was 230V plus 10 minus 6 percent. Thus there was no need for the utilities to change anything ( think of the cost of replacing every distribution transformer at the same time as an example) other than how much they were allowed as a variation. They have only to take care not to give too high a voltage now, and this only under low load conditions. This can be handled by the standard substation equipment easily, and had no cost.

Here in South Africa there are still a few pockets of century old systems, which are nominally 240V. they will not be changed out but have the high voltage limited to not exceed the spec.  At work the mains is around 234 to 238V, mostly as there is a substation of 200kVA feeding it on site. Nice low impedance feed.

[G7PSK]

I Have a friend that used to live in a big old country house that before mains ever came along had its own power plant. On one occasion I went into the loft and found that the lights were wired with bare copper conductors about 2.5 mm dia held on wooden and ceramic battens this had been connected as is to the mains when the rest of the house had been rewired to the standards required in the early 60's when the mains power arrived. The first thing I did was find the fuse for the circuit and remove it.

[Bored@Work]

The first thing I did was find the fuse for the circuit and remove it.

And the next thing your friend did when figuring out the lights in the loft didn't work was to improvise a fuse with a nail?

[IanB]

On one occasion I went into the loft and found that the lights were wired with bare copper conductors about 2.5 mm dia held on wooden and ceramic battens

And as long as the system was electrically and mechanically sound it was perfectly OK. The main danger would be contact or shorting by foreign objects or people against uninsulated conductors. If the wiring was placed in an inaccessible location this would not be a great danger. You just need to be aware and have the wiring upgraded to modern standards at the earliest opportunity.

The first thing I did was find the fuse for the circuit and remove it.

I can see you are not a friend anyone would want to invite round to their house. With friends like you, who needs enemies?

[G7PSK]

On one occasion I went into the loft and found that the lights were wired with bare copper conductors about 2.5 mm dia held on wooden and ceramic battens

And as long as the system was electrically and mechanically sound it was perfectly OK. The main danger would be contact or shorting by foreign objects or people against uninsulated conductors. If the wiring was placed in an inaccessible location this would not be a great danger. You just need to be aware and have the wiring upgraded to modern standards at the earliest opportunity.

The first thing I did was find the fuse for the circuit and remove it.

I can see you are not a friend anyone would want to invite round to their house. With friends like you, who needs enemies?

The light switch was on the end of this circuit just inside the loft door and it was easy to touch the bare wires also as it was a big old house there was bats and birds in there , And no the friend did not find a nail she called an electrician and had the rewiring done.