$75k preamp....

[poptones]

You don't see the car equivalent of a directional Monster cable, or a wool USB cable with the +5V wire removed or an, ehhh, claimed EM field absorber box with an outlandish pseudoscientific explanation.

There are countless television programs that are little more than adverts for whatever "project" they are building that week - intake manifolds, headers, camshafts - all of which wonks are encouraged to apply to their vehicles willy nilly in order to extract more performance from them. How many teens have spent the weekend under their new ride ripping out exhaust bits, unhooking engine mounts and forcing bits around to fit a new pair of headers believing their buying extra performance? Often this venture costs performance and simply results in a loud, annoying car with ground clearance problems. Same can be said of carburetors and such. If applied correctly these things may improve performance, but few of these shows delve into their correct application - they simply focus on labels and brands. And let's not even get into the cow magnets, 30" rims and "deer whistles."

I guess the main point is can listeners repeatably pass a blind test, if the cables are similarly specc'ed in normal electrical terms. ie Length, resistance, vaguely similar impedance at a normal cable length and nominal 8 ohm speakers?

Like the way the teenager "evaluates" his new header install through the seat of his pants? Few have the gear to accurately measure even 0-60 times... it's just get in, start it up and see if it "feels different." Well, of course it does - you've thrown away 10ft/lb of low end torque and increased the wot spl by 30db... of course it "feels different."

But what really strikes a chord with me is the argument you've repeated which basically reduces to "it's all subjective". It's all about the experience.

Tell that to the teenager.

Yep, it's all about the experience. It's all subjective. If I want to DIY a tube amplifier that distills amplification down to its four part essence (valve, output transformer, bias resistor and input coupling transformer) and I believe it sounds good, then that is the end of it. If you disagree with my evaluation, then bully for you - you're free to pursue your own audio nirvana - or just to be happy with your sound card and logitech "home theater" setup. No skin off my nose, and none off yours either.

It seems your problem is with the way the press treats much of this stuff. Well, the press can choose to debunk it but what do they gain? One more advertiser is out the door, meanwhile this other magazine will gladly cater to that market. And most of the journalists probably really do believe this stuff - which, frankly, I find a lot more honest than the car performance shows where the "dialog" sounds like it was written by marketing droids. Well, I have a problem with the press too - that's why I don't bother myself with them. These last few days I've read more of that crap than I had in the last decade, and I really don't care to go on.

Some of you seem to think I am defending the snake oil - I'm not. I'm simply saying it's unfair to brand everything as snake oil simply because it's more expensive than you find "morally justifiable." I'm not down with the money either - if you read that last link you'll see pretty much where I am: build it. There is much more happiness to be gained from building your own rig than from spending thousands on someone elses mojo... just ask the teen who spent the weekend busting his knuckles to install those headers.

[amyk]

and one thing about irrationally priced high end audio equipment is that (I am assuming here)  it almost always does it's job well. As opposed to other scam products.
even super pure copper monster cable etc, actually will do it's job well.

Until you look at this...
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/crystal2/micro.html
http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/7971/picolopowercord.jpg
http://www.berlin-hifi.de/shop/images/product_images/popup_images/901_0.jpg

18AWG power cable. That just cannot be safe.

[BravoV]

18AWG power cable. That just cannot be safe.

Nope, you're wrong, when the "special insulation material" is toasted, it will emanate a nice toasted caramel smell when your system running at full power to complement the audio, you will get a surreal and almost perfect ambient especially when you played the right song. 

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

    and one thing about irrationally priced high end audio equipment is that (I am assuming here)  it almost always does it's job well. As opposed to other scam products.
    even super pure copper monster cable etc, actually will do it's job well.

Until you look at this...
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/crystal2/micro.html

I didn't manage to wade through the hype so I don't even know if they're double insulated, but they scare me. I wouldn't have them in the house in case somebody plugged one in.

It would probably be fine for a 'normal' preamp at our nominal 230v but all bets are off for a 75k preamp with 2 x 19 pin power connectors in the back and in USA where I gather you normally would need double the current running at 120v.

Ok I will retract that statement.

[T4P]

Well what's all that argument for when it's truly snake oil?
The way they advertised the 75k preamp and pricing it like that automatically groups it as snake oil!

[poptones]

Jeesus. So I guess high priced cars, wine, food and anything else you find priced offensively makes it snake oil? Or do you save your derision exclusively for sound gear? And does that extend as well to $15,000.00 guitars and $200,000.00 violins?

[T4P]

Jeesus. So I guess high priced cars, wine, food and anything else you find priced offensively makes it snake oil? Or do you save your derision exclusively for sound gear? And does that extend as well to $15,000.00 guitars and $200,000.00 violins?

At least they do what they claim on the paper and NOT bullshitting about what they do
A audio preamp should have a similar signal on the output and not require 75,000 to do the same job a 500 buck preamp can do for similar performance!

DON'T drag high priced cars into this, many R&D went into them and nobody can blame a bugatti veyron for costing that much, the engine is very expensive itself

Snake oil is something that does what they thus not claim and shall cost much more

Plus you cannot use R&D as a excuse for audio preamps, the core technology has been here and forever!

If the veyron's specs says 1500hp and 500km/h that would be snake oil BUT IT DOESN'T!
Because it does exactly about 1001HP and 253mp/h it's understable lots of R&D went into the airbrake and the body itself
As well as developing a new advanced chassis for a car to handle 1001HP without spinning the rear tires and being able to corner itself
What about the gearbox itself?

[poptones]

Once again, I am  in awe of your logical consistency...

[deephaven]

Here is my take on all this.
I have no objection to people/companies coming up with a product which has a high price tag. What it means is that the product will not be bought by many people, so it has a feel of exclusivity about it. People can come round to the owner's house and say "Wow, you've got an XYZ". As long as the supplier doesn't make claims which are false or misleading, then there is no problem. I myself would have some difficulty in seeing how the supplier in question can justify the high price tag, but if people are willing to assess the product and decide it is worth their money, then there's no problem. I think paying £75K for a preamp will put you in a very exclusive club!

Regarding perception of musical quality, I'm sure that the placebo effect can come into play. What I mean is that you expect it to be good, and that expectation has a part to play in it's perceived quality. There are other effects that come into play as well. As an illustration, try drinking coffee which has been dyed green or blue, it will taste different, because your brain has different expectations. Therefore, just the look of the equipment will change your perception of the quality of music.

Having said all that, I am quite happy with the audio quality of my 'ordinary' equipment. I don't use fancy mains, speaker and phone cables. I put on a good movie or CD and it sure sounds good to me. I think these expensive mains cables really are pushing the limits of credibility!

[Short Circuit]

yada yada

Plus you cannot use R&D as a excuse for audio preamps, the core technology has been here and forever!

...
something about an engine, gearbox and four wheels
...

What is fundamentally different from a 1908 T-ford? 
(apart from having only two seats and no cargo space)

[AntiProtonBoy]

Jeesus. So I guess high priced cars, wine, food and anything else you find priced offensively makes it snake oil? Or do you save your derision exclusively for sound gear? And does that extend as well to $15,000.00 guitars and $200,000.00 violins?

Yep. After a certain point, it is all knobbery.

Listen up.

You like playing with expensive audio equipment. That's cool. However, this becomes a problem when you are attempting to convince people about the benefits of something that is most likely fictitious. Instead of defending a bunch of outlandish pseudo engineering reasoning to validate your hobby, why not just say that you simply like shiny, expensive and reasonable quality toys? Just cut the bullshit and say that. This is what the whole discussion ultimately boils down to: Claims are being made, some of us called out on those claims, and yet we're getting nothing but hot air in return.

[poptones]

Wow, you're arguing with, like, someone in your head. You're obviously not arguing with me because it's incredibly obvious you haven't really read a thing I have posted.

I don't "like playing with expensive audio equipment" at all. The most expensive gear I have ever bought was a 3 year old Luxman CD player back in about 1990, and I only bought that because I had been, up to to that point, too cheap to buy a CD player and I got it for like 50 bucks because they thought something was wrong with it. My present speakers are some Klipsch HT speakers with 6.5" woofers and my receiver is a Marantz 2220A which, if you know anything at all about Marantz, you know is considered pretty much one of their least desirable from the "vintage" era because of its amplifier design with a single HV rail and giant output coupling capacitors. I bought it because the price was right and it looks cool -  it's a 70's Marantz. I'm not at all happy with the sound of it and am taking steps to build something better, but I am going to miss it when it's gone.

I like listening to music. I like building gear. I have no need to pay for someone else's mojo, as I have plenty of my own.

[SeanB]

I do have a nice Kenwood separate system, that is not used often. I have an old ( 1990's ) Aiwa radio that is the primary radio, but most of my listening is done on a PC, via an external USB sound unit, and a set of home built speakers which use a TDA2009 as amplifier. As good as my ears are happy with, and perfect for close up listening.

[T4P]

My setup that i use to listen to is a PC Speaker that i bought just for the transformer and the wood enclosures ... 12 bucks only
Consists of 2 TDA2030A for the left and right channels
And a TDA2040A for the sub

[ftransform]

[saturation]

Hmmm, nasty stuff.  Are you suggesting audiophoolery is a 2CE trip?

[ftransform]

im suggesting 1$ of that is better then any amplifier in the world.