$2,000 Custom PC vs $4,000 Mac Pro

[Homer J Simpson]

Not posting to start an Apple PC flame war but interesting to watch.

About 2 years ago I considered switching from a i7 PC to a Pro but even then the math did not add up.

[ZeTeX]

Apple today in a nutshell, not too surprised.
apple is just garbage those days, it really is. (and I still own iPhone 4 and its great, but iphone 4 was before steve jobs died and apple started fooling people).

"OWW IT COST 10$ RETAIL!! LETS DRAW AN APPLE ON IT AND SELL IT FOR HALF A MILLION!!"
"LOOK MOMMY ITS APPLE PLEASE BUY ME PLEASE PLEASE!!!!"

[edy]

It basically boils down to what software you need to run and what ecosystem you prefer. The hardware vendor options are obviously severely limited on the Mac side because only Apple manufactures Macs.

On the PC side you have much more competition, from processors to graphic cards to every component you can imagine. Mix and match and you will find a price level that can always beat a Mac on a pure performance to dollar ratio.

But having said that, people still buy Macs. Ask yourself why?...   and you will know whether you fit into that camp or willing to go the PC route.

Traditionally, the graphic artists people and hollywood types have always preferred Apple. Whether it is because of software availability (certainly more so in the past) or esthetics, or status symbol....   Today you can find a PC that runs it all too and looks nice too. But you have to go looking. With Apple you have it served to you on a platter with caviar, but you pay a premium for that.

If cost were equal I would have no issues considering Apple or PC based on my needs. Being on a budget and knowing what software I typically use is available for Windows or Linux, I choose the cheaper option that does the job. If I had to use some specialized software or game only available on Mac, I would go Mac. Without knowing what you intend to do with your machine, there is no way to answer that question.

[JacobPilsen]

Are Macs still fanless

[Wuerstchenhund]

Traditionally, the graphic artists people and hollywood types have always preferred Apple. Whether it is because of software availability (certainly more so in the past) or esthetics, or status symbol....   

The artists maybe, and the small production studios, but the big stuff has been made on PCs (mostly HP workstations) for a very long time, and before then on SiliconGraphics machines. The simple reason is that Apple never had anything that was even close to a real high end workstation. That they pretty much were the last to come up with a 64bit OS didn't help them, either.

Today I'd say Apple has given up on the 'Pros' as they make much more revenue through iPhone, iPad and iMacs.

[miguelvp]

I just purchased a refurbished off-lease Lenovo ThinkStation D20 with dual quad cores Xeon processors (16 threads total), 32GB ECC ram and 2TB drives for under $500, including W7 Pro.

[edy]

I just purchased a refurbished off-lease Lenovo ThinkStation D20 with dual quad cores Xeon processors (16 threads total), 32GB ECC ram and 2TB drives for under $500, including W7 Pro.

Forgot to mention... There are way more PC's out there and a much better after-market (off-lease, resale, etc). Once again, increased competition and greater volume = better price, more value $$$ available.

I also recently purchased an off-lease Lenovo ThinkPad T410 Core i-5 4GB RAM 280 GB HDD Win 7 Pro for under $200 US. There are so many around for sale... tons of parts, tons of support, easy to fix. For that reason as well (availability of parts, resales, interchangable components) I've stayed out of the Mac ecosystem also.

I think it boils down to "must have" software that is only available on Mac. For example, if you are an iOS developer you have to be on a Mac. I've done apps for BlackBerry and Android on PC no problems. But I have not been able to get into iOS developing because as far as I know, you need to have a Mac to run their developing environment (XCode IDE)... (there are ways using VMware but that just proves even more that you don't need the Mac)

[ChunkyPastaSauce]

Not posting to start an Apple PC flame war but interesting to watch.

About 2 years ago I considered switching from a i7 PC to a Pro but even then the math did not add up.

That comparison isn't a good one. The mac has xeon core and ECC ram and workstation graphics. ECC is slower, but greatly improves the likelihood the memory data is correct. Xeon core goes with that, but also adds better support for other stuff such as virtualization extensions. The graphics are hugely different, the pc had a gamer card, which is optimized for speed rather than correctness. The workstation card in the mac, is optimized for correctness, supports things like full 10bit color path, geometry / overlap corrections, and a bunch more stuff.  The PC would need workstation class hardware to be a fair comparison. People using software using those types of features know the difference, most gamers do not. It would actually be not smart to try and build a gaming computer from workstation hardware unless you needed the hardware.

Having said that, the current (today) fully loaded ~$10,000 macpro is way over priced and can be built 1/2 the cost in PC hardware. I haven't checked, but I think it's likely that when you go to the lower end macpros, the pricing differential probably becomes less (basing this on insane markups for things like expanded ram in the past).

[RGB255_0_0]

Not posting to start an Apple PC flame war but interesting to watch.

About 2 years ago I considered switching from a i7 PC to a Pro but even then the math did not add up.

That comparison isn't a good one. The mac has xeon core and ECC ram and workstation graphics. ECC is slower, but greatly improves the likelihood the memory data is correct. Xeon core goes with that, but also adds better support for other stuff such as virtualization extensions. The graphics are hugely different, the pc had a gamer card, which is optimized for speed rather than correctness. The workstation card in the mac, is optimized for correctness, supports things like full 10bit color path, geometry / overlap corrections, and a bunch more stuff.  The PC would need workstation class hardware to be a fair comparison. People using software using those types of features know the difference, most gamers do not. It would actually be not smart to try and build a gaming computer from workstation hardware unless you needed the hardware.

Having said that, the current (today) fully loaded ~$10,000 macpro is way over priced and can be built 1/2 the cost in PC hardware. I haven't checked, but I think it's likely that when you go to the lower end macpros, the pricing differential probably becomes less (basing this on insane markups for things like expanded ram in the past).

The point he was making though was that - for him - the switch to a cheaper PC was more beneficial. The difference between a 5820k and 1650 V3 is not a great deal (http://ark.intel.com/compare/82932,82765) and only about £190 difference. Unless you need ECC and vPro extensions and 40 PCIE lanes the 5820K is a good deal. If you need 2 CPUs or more then costs escalate very quickly though.

For mathematical/mission-critical tasks you basically have to go with ECC and Xeon. Still, doesn't add quite as much as $2000 though.

[Halcyon]

Traditionally, the graphic artists people and hollywood types have always preferred Apple. Whether it is because of software availability (certainly more so in the past) or esthetics, or status symbol....   

"Traditionally" (back in the 1990's) Apple had a hold on the multimedia and non-linear editing market but PC very quickly cause up. As already mentioned, the big players used film and specialist machines like Silicon Graphics.

These days (pretty much from 2000 onwards) most half decent and large production houses, TV studios and OB facilities will use PC-based or embedded devices. Apple is just too darn expensive for no gain. I've done work for two television stations in Sydney (Channel Ten and the smaller TVS in Penrith) and both use PCs. Channel Ten was using HP workstations and Avid systems, TVS used cheaper consumer machines running Playbox Technology's software.

[ChunkyPastaSauce]

The point he was making though was that - for him - the switch to a cheaper PC was more beneficial. The difference between a 5820k and 1650 V3 is not a great deal (http://ark.intel.com/compare/82932,82765) and only about £190 difference. Unless you need ECC and vPro extensions and 40 PCIE lanes the 5820K is a good deal. If you need 2 CPUs or more then costs escalate very quickly though.

For mathematical/mission-critical tasks you basically have to go with ECC and Xeon. Still, doesn't add quite as much as $2000 though.

I don't think that was the point he was making. He says pretty clearly that the macpro isn't a "pro" product but came to the conclusion as a result of a completely incorrect analysis. You can tell he doesn't know what he's talking about when he thinks the hardware update cycle is too slow (workstation hardware has a slower update cycle the consumer hardware), he also doesn't seem to understand the massive differences between the graphics cards (agencies doing media will be using exclusively workstation cards due to full 10bit path alone).

As far as ECC ram. If you're running a business and you depend on the computer, the computer should almost always have ECC ram. Not exclusive to scientific or mission critical applications. The price difference is negligible in the professional market. The E5-1650 equivalent is the i5930k, the cpus cost basically the same, but you generally need slightly more expensive motherboard. You are right most consumers don't need the 40 lanes though but even then the price difference is negligible in the professional market.

A fully loaded macpro is definitely over priced though.

[ChunkyPastaSauce]

These days (pretty much from 2000 onwards) most half decent and large production houses, TV studios and OB facilities will use PC-based or embedded devices. Apple is just too darn expensive for no gain. I've done work for two television stations in Sydney (Channel Ten and the smaller TVS in Penrith) and both use PCs. Channel Ten was using HP workstations and Avid systems, TVS used cheaper consumer machines running Playbox Technology's software.

Good bet the machines are loaded with workstation cards, and not video gaming cards, and workstation ram. The exception might be rendering stations.

[boffin]

If you're really looking for 'server level' reliability, dual power supplies will likely be more useful than ECC memory.  All that being said, I can put together a server-grade system with a Supermicro Chassis/motherboard with Xeons/ECC ram for less money than a Mac Pro.

[suicidaleggroll]

There are two major problems with this comparison:
1) Comparing server-grade hardware to consumer-grade hardware
2) Comparing a fully assembled, tested, and warrantied retail product to a rig you design, build, and debug yourself (time = money)

Compare apples to apples (pun intended) and the difference will be much smaller.  Throw that Mac up against Xeon/ECC workstation from the likes of HP or Dell, not against a machine you built yourself, it's not a fair comparison.

[suicidaleggroll]

If you're really looking for 'server level' reliability, dual power supplies will likely be more useful than ECC memory.  All that being said, I can put together a server-grade system with a Supermicro Chassis/motherboard with Xeons/ECC ram for less money than a Mac Pro.

Of course you can, you can do it for less money than any Dell, HP, or other retail workstation as well.  This has nothing to do with Apple or their prices, this is simply a comparison between retail vs homebrew (and for the OP, server grade vs consumer grade hardware as well).

[suicidaleggroll]

The point he was making though was that - for him - the switch to a cheaper PC was more beneficial. The difference between a 5820k and 1650 V3 is not a great deal (http://ark.intel.com/compare/82932,82765) and only about £190 difference. Unless you need ECC and vPro extensions and 40 PCIE lanes the 5820K is a good deal. If you need 2 CPUs or more then costs escalate very quickly though.

For mathematical/mission-critical tasks you basically have to go with ECC and Xeon. Still, doesn't add quite as much as $2000 though.

Yes it does.  Add in a couple hundred for the Xeon processor, a hundred for the ECC RAM, a couple hundred for the Xeon/ECC motherboard, a hundred for the workstation graphics card, a couple hundred for the server power supply (is the Mac's redundant?  Not sure, most server chassis are), a grand for somebody to design, build, test, and warranty it for you, and your right there at Apple's price.

[ChunkyPastaSauce]

Quick clarification. It's workstation grade vs consumer grade. Server grade is another market segment. Also, there is a difference between a homebrew workstation and a workstation from dell or hp. The dell and hp machines go thru machine level certification, and some go further and get ISV certified. For the most part, the best a homebrew can do is component level ISV certified and others, but not machine level.

[Kevman]

The point he was making though was that - for him - the switch to a cheaper PC was more beneficial. The difference between a 5820k and 1650 V3 is not a great deal (http://ark.intel.com/compare/82932,82765) and only about £190 difference. Unless you need ECC and vPro extensions and 40 PCIE lanes the 5820K is a good deal. If you need 2 CPUs or more then costs escalate very quickly though.

For mathematical/mission-critical tasks you basically have to go with ECC and Xeon. Still, doesn't add quite as much as $2000 though.

Yes it does.  Add in a couple hundred for the Xeon processor, a hundred for the ECC RAM, a couple hundred for the Xeon/ECC motherboard, a hundred for the workstation graphics card, a couple hundred for the server power supply (is the Mac's redundant?  Not sure, most server chassis are), a grand for somebody to design, build, test, and warranty it for you, and your right there at Apple's price.

Yeah, but what if I don't want to? With Apple my only option then is to buy an All-in-one with laptop components in it (the iMac). So I have to either buy a giant laptop or a silly-expensive server with dual workstation graphics cards. There's no other options. I can't not get ECC Ram. I can't get gamer cards if I don't need FirePro, so there's a very high price floor. It gets pretty silly if you're thinking about using them as servers and don't need the graphics cards at all.

The Mac PSU is not redundant and they're typically pretty friggin' pricey. Also note that the graphics cards are mirrored- if you blow a card you must buy or source a left or right handed replacement. I think this is also going to add onto maintenance costs- not only is the card proprietary, there 2 different ones in every machine!

[suicidaleggroll]

The point he was making though was that - for him - the switch to a cheaper PC was more beneficial. The difference between a 5820k and 1650 V3 is not a great deal (http://ark.intel.com/compare/82932,82765) and only about £190 difference. Unless you need ECC and vPro extensions and 40 PCIE lanes the 5820K is a good deal. If you need 2 CPUs or more then costs escalate very quickly though.

For mathematical/mission-critical tasks you basically have to go with ECC and Xeon. Still, doesn't add quite as much as $2000 though.

Yes it does.  Add in a couple hundred for the Xeon processor, a hundred for the ECC RAM, a couple hundred for the Xeon/ECC motherboard, a hundred for the workstation graphics card, a couple hundred for the server power supply (is the Mac's redundant?  Not sure, most server chassis are), a grand for somebody to design, build, test, and warranty it for you, and your right there at Apple's price.

Yeah, but what if I don't want to? With Apple my only option then is to buy an All-in-one with laptop components in it (the iMac). So I have to either buy a giant laptop or a silly-expensive server with dual workstation graphics cards. There's no other options. I can't not get ECC Ram. I can't get gamer cards if I don't need FirePro, so there's a very high price floor. It gets pretty silly if you're thinking about using them as servers and don't need the graphics cards at all.

Then don't buy Apple, or suck it up and deal with the higher price for more reliable equipment.  It's not a valid argument to say that you can build -something- for half the cost of the Mac, and therefore Apple is ripping people off, when that -something- you're building is not up to the same level of quality/reliability and doesn't include the same services.

If you want a cheap, consumer-grade desktop, then I'm sorry but Apple doesn't make one.  That doesn't mean that what they do make is a ripoff, it's just a different product for a different application.  Compare Apple's prices to truly equivalent machines from other name-brand computer manufacturers, and you'll see their prices are right in line.

[vze1lryy]

I crap on Apple everyday, almost for a living. But what I will say is that it is so much more than specs.

You pay for the experience. You pay for the OS, you pay for the OS "just working" with the hardware, you pay for every aspect of elegant design.

If you are Apple's target demographic(BIG IF HERE), their shit will just do everything the way you want it to as if they have read your mind inside and out. EVERYTHING will make sense in this beautiful way.

To their target demographic, this is worth far more than saving some money to get equivalent processing power for a few bucks less. To go from Mac to PC, to get the same specs for less, to these people, would be like dumping your spouse who loves you & understands you & values you for someone who couldn't give a shit about you because they're 3 lbs lighter. Ridiculous.

To people outside their target demographic(like myself), it is torture. I wouldn't take half of their shit for free. I just can't stand it. Every aspect of the machine is at odds with how I use a computer. It is inherently frustrating to be stuck inside their ecosystem, for me.

But I understand how it works for other people completely. The same way I understand that a $6000 Lenovo P70 with a trackpoint, while amazing interface for me, would be worse than hell for many Mac users used to a conservative-sensitivity-but-accurate trackpad.

[vze1lryy]

Now, from a purely TECHNICAL point of view

It is absolute BS that GPUs are failing in this machine enough to warrant an extended warranty/recall program.

It is shaped like a HEPA filter. This is a desktop. It was designed, from the bottom up, with ventilation in mind.

Every year Apple screws up their hardware in a new way. Every effing year. And it is so frustrating, because unlike everyone else who competes on price, Apple has the money to do it RIGHT!!

[jeremy]

If you are Apple's target demographic(BIG IF HERE), their shit will just do everything the way you want it to as if they have read your mind inside and out. EVERYTHING will make sense in this beautiful way.

To their target demographic, this is worth far more than saving some money to get equivalent processing power for a few bucks less. To go from Mac to PC, to get the same specs for less, to these people, would be like dumping your spouse who loves you & understands you & values you for someone who couldn't give a shit about you because they're 3 lbs lighter. Ridiculous.

This is exactly it. You aren't paying for a "computer" in the general sense, you are paying for a specific product where a number of the differentiating characteristics are subjective.

I've been through many computers over the years, from desktops to laptops to servers. Apple stands out as a company who provided me with outstanding warranty service (or should I say, out-of-warranty-but-still-free-without-arguments service), as well as a reliable product, and that's why I pay the not insignificant premium to type this on a macbook pro.

If you don't like it, don't buy it ? 

[tooki]

The modern Mac Pro is kind of a bizarre beast. Aside from the fact it hasn't been updated since time immemorial, it's really designed almost exclusively for high-end video editing, to the exclusion of other tasks. For nearly anything else, a high-end iMac is actually faster, not to mention massively cheaper.

This is quite a shift from earlier Mac Pros, which had wide appeal to power users of various kinds. My main computer is a 2008 Mac Pro, which wasn't cheap, but it was actually $1100 cheaper than the closest-spec Dell Dimension workstation available at the time. (In fact, Apple's price for the entire computer was only about a few dollars more than Newegg's cost, at the time, for just the two Xeon processors it contained!!!) A few upgrades over the years (RAM, SSD, and GPU) and this old beast is still lightning fast and rock solid stable.

Indeed, if you look at Mac tech forums, you'll find that an ongoing gripe from power users is the lack of any expandable machine for power users. They — we — want for the screen to be separate, space for internal storage, etc. (I love having ample drive bays in my Mac Pro.) But the problem is, most people (and businesses) don't ever upgrade computer components piecemeal. We know that they almost always replace their displays, input devices, etc, even though those could easily be kept and used with a new CPU. We power users who want modularity are simply not a large enough customer group to warrant a model just for us. (And no, the irony is not lost on me that the current Mac Pro has far, far, far narrower appeal. It seems more an engineering study than a viable product, IMHO.)

[Mechanical Menace]

2) Comparing a fully assembled, tested, and warrantied retail product to a rig you design, build, and debug yourself (time = money)

Designing a PC "I want to put these parts in it."
Building a PC "This card will only go in this slot, this plug will only go in this socket. Don't block airflow."
Debugging a PC "Well that's all the drivers installed."

All that takes what, 2 hours at a push?

Fair enough this isn't a like for like comparison between a DIY PC and an Apple branded one and that's a failing of this video. But you can still build a none Apple PC for at most half the price with similar specs and buy one, say a ThinkStation, for at most two thirds of it.

EDIT: The above is going by the price of lowest specced Mac Pro second hand in the UK. In the US I'm guessing they're cheaper and there actually isn't much in it there.

[Kilrah]

Debugging a PC "Well that's all the drivers installed."

All that takes what, 2 hours at a push?

That's the theory until you install your 6TB hard drive, you find out that the SATA chipset controlling the port you connected it to somehow breaks with >3TB drives even if it's not supposed to and thus isn't documented, which corrupts it, then you have to try another port that goes to a different controller, but then that one doesn't support the hotplug feature you intended to rely on... and you still have to spend 2 days properly reformatting and restoring the 6TB drive being super extra careful not to connect the backup to the broken controller. Repeat the process when 6 months later you take it apart to clean it up, change your config a bit and rearrange things while you're there, and had forgotten about the issue.

One of my machines intermittently failed to boot (stayed stuck on DMI pool check) and it took me 3 days to find out why, it happens it won't boot if an USB3 hard drive is plugged in to a USB3 port at power on. Haven't found another solution than disconnecting the drives yet, and it didn't do it when it was new, maybe a BIOS upgrade broke it. Of course when you wake up in the morning, press that power button half asleep, go have a drink and come back 10 mins later hoping to find your PC ready it's stuck becasue a drive was plugged.

When you buy a ready-made machine the manufacturer will have tested for weeks to find caveats and solved/avoided them. Then warranties his work to cover cases where he failed.
I build my own PCs because I like doing that once in a while and I get exactly what I think I want, but it certainly isn't a guaranteed smooth ride.