EEVblog #1146 - New Low Cost Rigol MSO5000 Oscilloscope

[mikeselectricstuff]

Agreed.

Then again I don't think there is such a thing as a reliable scope out there from my experience

What's more important is how companies deal with issues.
Keysight fixed the memory issue and I believe will also fix any out-of-warranty scopes with this issue free.
AFAIK Keysight also recalibrate any scopes that pass through their repair dept.

[nctnico]

The only thing here that somewhat matters for the Rigol 7000/8000 discussion (in an MSO5000 thread ) is that obviously even for the "high end" Rigol/Siglent scopes, a probe connection is worth much less than the probe connection of a Lecroy, Agilent or Tektronix scope. Since who really wants to buy an active/current/differential probe from Rigol or Siglent?

I do, as I don't really feel like wasting money on massively overpriced products from "A" brands just so some random dude from the Internet would be happy.

But the equipment from the A-brands works and if there are teething problems it gets fixed even if it means taking a boat load of devices back. I'm done buying B-brands after being burned a couple of times already. At some point I run into the limitations which require me to buy the A-brand equipment anyway.

[bd139]

Agreed.

Then again I don't think there is such a thing as a reliable scope out there from my experience

What's more important is how companies deal with issues.
Keysight fixed the memory issue and I believe will also fix any out-of-warranty scopes with this issue free.
AFAIK Keysight also recalibrate any scopes that pass through their repair dept.

That is exactly it. One of the joys with Keysight is being able to just phone up Keysight, at least here in the UK and have someone helpful instantly. The three times I've had to call them they have been perfect. Can't say that for any other vendors.

Also if you rely on the kit, work on the basis that it will fail the day after the warranty expires and any time it lasts after that is a financial blessing

[Fungus]

What's more important is how companies deal with issues.
Keysight fixed the memory issue and I believe will also fix any out-of-warranty scopes with this issue free.

Siglent were very responsive sending out little bags of capacitors to customers after they forgot to to put them inside the 'scopes.

[David Hess]

I'm wondering if Logic Probe is just a bunch of wires and one can use this feature without actually buying the logic probe...
The socket in MSO5000 unit looks like one can just insert hand-made pins directly into the socket...

The logic probe head almost always includes something like a differential line receiver for each signal to drive the low impedance cable back to the oscilloscope.  In older ones, this was commonly an FET buffer followed by a comparator.

The only real trick with this is that high input impedance comparators are a contradiction so full integration is difficult or impossible so separate buffering and comparator stages are required for a high impedance input.

[David Hess]

I'm wondering if Rigol is allowed to use AES encryption on the firmware. There might be export restrictions. I'm pretty sure the NSA and similar security agencies will want to examine the firmware for any hidden forms of cyber attack.

AES encryption is a publiclly available algorithm, so, not sure how export restrictions stop anything.   The Xilinx chipset that is running the CPU is made in Taiwan.    The NSA last time i looked did'nt have much power in taiwan.

The US Commerce Department handles export permits for products containing encryption but that has nothing to do with imports which is why so many products which use encryption moved development outside of the US.  As far as I know, this applies to products using AES.

[asmi]

But the equipment from the A-brands works and if there are teething problems it gets fixed even if it means taking a boat load of devices back. I'm done buying B-brands after being burned a couple of times already. At some point I run into the limitations which require me to buy the A-brand equipment anyway.

I never had any issues with "B" brands' equipment, and in any case would never waste money on overpriced stuff from "A" brands - it least until prices become reasonable.

[lukier]

The US Commerce Department handles export permits for products containing encryption but that has nothing to do with imports which is why so many products which use encryption moved development outside of the US.  As far as I know, this applies to products using AES.

I'm not 100% sure, but it is probably not only US DoC, Wassenaar Arrangement also puts some constraints on cypto and it was ratified by much more countries than just the US.

[Fungus]

I'm wondering if Logic Probe is just a bunch of wires and one can use this feature without actually buying the logic probe...
The socket in MSO5000 unit looks like one can just insert hand-made pins directly into the socket...

Short answer: no.

It's much more than wires in the little add-on box, they're full of comparators, controller chips, voltage references, etc.

[nctnico]

But the equipment from the A-brands works and if there are teething problems it gets fixed even if it means taking a boat load of devices back. I'm done buying B-brands after being burned a couple of times already. At some point I run into the limitations which require me to buy the A-brand equipment anyway.

I never had any issues with "B" brands' equipment, and in any case would never waste money on overpriced stuff from "A" brands - it least until prices become reasonable.

Then you never have handled a good tool. Like I wrote: I got burned a few times already. The latest example is needing a good function generator which can synchronise two outputs for real. The B-brands only work for 90%. Great if you only need 90% but when you need the last 10% then it is going to cost you money twice.

[asmi]

but when you need the last 10% then it is going to cost you money twice.

Nope, I will find a way to make do with the tools I have. I pay for that stuff with my own money, and not a single cent from my wallet will ever go to "A" brands until they change their pricing policy. And no, I don't buy used stuff as a matter of principle.

[Martin72]

The latest example is needing a good function generator which can synchronise two outputs for real.

Hm?


If I set one channel with "Align Phase" (Siglent/Rigol Function Generator), on the scope there´s no deviation between the 2 channels visible..and measureable (with scope).

Otherwise, a Lecroy WavePro scope has an deviation (timebase)of 1ppm/year, the "biggest" "Class-B" Scopes reaching 25ppm....seems really worse against the WavePro - but it´s always a matter of what You really need in the case.
As a hobbyist…
Professionals do not mind the budget.

[nctnico]

The latest example is needing a good function generator which can synchronise two outputs for real.

Hm?

If I set one channel with "Align Phase" (Siglent/Rigol Function Generator), on the scope there´s no deviation between the 2 channels visible..and measureable (with scope).

Well there are B-brand generators out there which can't do that despite having such a setting. My specific purpose is to simulate 10MHz and 1 PPS signal like it comes from a time reference.

@asmi: that is great but at some point you'll realise 'making do' takes time away from doing something meaningful and makes getting where you want to go less enjoyable.

[jCandlish]

I'm expecting they will plug that gap after having to give away so much functionality on the 1000z.

Huh? You don't think they "allowed" it? It wouldn't have sold otherwise.

The previous generation worked the same way (DS1052E was hackable).

Rigol could very easily make life miserable for anybody publishing information on how to circumvent their crypto under the DCMA.

Recovering a hidden private key is more fun than spending time in the legal system.

.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I'm expecting they will plug that gap after having to give away so much functionality on the 1000z.

Huh? You don't think they "allowed" it? It wouldn't have sold otherwise.

The previous generation worked the same way (DS1052E was hackable).

Rigol could very easily make life miserable for anybody publishing information on how to circumvent their crypto under the DCMA.

Depends where that info is hosted.

[Fungus]

Rigol could very easily make life miserable for anybody publishing information on how to circumvent their crypto under the DCMA.

Really? The entire legal weight of the MAFIAA hasn't managed to shut down The Pirate Bay yet.

[bd139]

Someone will just keep posting it on pastebin or something anyway. Good luck killing that

DMCA is mostly only useful for search delisting. And you can look at the recorded DMCA complaints on the bottom of the Google page, open them up and see the listed URLs anyway. 

[jCandlish]

Rigol could very easily make life miserable for anybody publishing information on how to circumvent their crypto under the DCMA.

Really? The entire legal weight of the MAFIAA hasn't managed to shut down The Pirate Bay yet.

In spite of making life a living hell for many they chose to prosecute.

[asmi]

@asmi: that is great but at some point you'll realise 'making do' takes time away from doing something meaningful and makes getting where you want to go less enjoyable.

No, I like challenges, besides even now I'm working with MGT links running at 6Gbps, and I will never be able to afford TE that can work at that kind of frequency.
What I don't understand is if you aren't interested in "B" brands' equipment - why you're ever present in threads discussing them? Is it some kind of self-torture, or subconsciously you do think that you did wasted money on "A" brands stuff so you need to keep trashing "B" brands to mute that inner voice of reason?

[nctnico]

@asmi: that is great but at some point you'll realise 'making do' takes time away from doing something meaningful and makes getting where you want to go less enjoyable.

No, I like challenges, besides even now I'm working with MGT links running at 6Gbps, and I will never be able to afford TE that can work at that kind of frequency.
What I don't understand is if you aren't interested in "B" brands' equipment - why you're ever present in threads discussing them? Is it some kind of self-torture, or subconsciously you do think that you did wasted money on "A" brands stuff so you need to keep trashing "B" brands to mute that inner voice of reason?

No, just interested in what is coming up next and warn people not to get overly excited about the price on the sticker for something which looks cheaper on paper but turns out to be a dud. However at some point the B-brands have to catch up. That is taking longer than expected and it seems that competing on price isn't going to happen anyway (look at Rigol's MSO7000 pricing). It takes a lot of engineering to create a decent piece of equipment and sales volumes aren't very high.

[Martin72]

Still waiting of an answer from Batronix…
It makes no sense that all options are for free till 12/31/2018 for the 7000 series, but for the 5000 not.
I´m very curious about some abilities of the Rigol 5000..
Can they display a PWM pulse stable (Rigol 1054Z doesn´t), do they have a free adjustable measure-gate, are the serial decoding functions hardware-based, will a Hi-Res/Enhanced Resolution Mode via firmware update come soon or ever, can they display the math function only ( even really old LeCroy models can do it)....
If they fulfill this requirements, I won´t care of the Mickey Mouse Design....(yes it is).

[mrpackethead]

how is the hacking effort going?  Im going to pick one up in the USA in Jan.  I've not done any reverse engineering like this before, but i suspect this is going to be signifincatly harder than the earlier models.

[supercilious]

Does anyone have any information about the ethernet or USB connectivity speed? How fast is the scope at transferring the 100M samples to a PC via SCPI or some other interface? This has been a huge bottleneck for Rigol instruments in the past.

[julianhigginson]

Still waiting of an answer from Batronix…
It makes no sense that all options are for free till 12/31/2018 for the 7000 series, but for the 5000 not.

1) the 7000 is about 3x the cost of the 5000
2) the 5000 has a bundle deal that gives you, like, everything. For not much more than the cost of one upgrade... While the 7000 paid upgrade situation is way more expensive.

[simone.pignatti]

The RIGOL MSO5000-BND function and application bundle option includes for EURO 599 + VAT
MSO5000-COMP PC serial bus trigger and analysis (RS232/UART)
MSO5000-EMBD Embedded serial bus trigger and analysis (I2C and SPI)
MSO5000-AUTO Auto serial bus trigger and analysis (CAN and LIN)
MSO5000-FLEX FlexRay serial bus trigger and analysis (FlexRay)
MSO5000-AUDIO Audio serial bus trigger and analysis (I2S) 4 channels models only
MSO5000-AERO MIL-STD-1553 serial bus trigger and analysis (MIL-STD-1553)
MSO5000-AWG Dual-channel 25 MHz arbitrary waveform generator
MSO5000-PWR Built-in Power Analysis