Author Topic: New Agilent scopes  (Read 385532 times)

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #525 on: February 25, 2012, 10:54:26 pm »
Probably we can expect that date to be updated with each firmware release, which is very sad for hobbyists indeed. :'( I wonder how likely it would be that Agilent might consider implementing hobbyist/non-commercial pricing for the licences and LAN/VGA modules in a range that we can actually afford.  They've managed to bring the scopes themselves into range, which is awesome, but then why keep the optional extras so far out of reach?

Simple business, and profit motive.
The same reason why even the cheaper brands like Rigol charge extra for software options.
It's not a charity.
Sure, Agilent could probably sell a 200MHz scope with all the software/memory bells and whistles for under $1K, and still likely make a profit. But it's not much of a profit, and it would just drag the entire scope industry down in a classic "race to the bottom".
So the manufacturers all know to play the game and make as much profit as they can get away with.

Dave.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuffTopic starter

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #526 on: February 26, 2012, 12:25:35 am »
I wonder how likely it would be that Agilent might consider implementing hobbyist/non-commercial pricing for the licences and LAN/VGA modules in a range that we can actually afford.  They've managed to bring the scopes themselves into range, which is awesome, but then why keep the optional extras so far out of reach?
VGA isn't particularly useful, and is fairly complicated due to the FPGA- LAN however looks like little more than connecting a magjack, assuming the software recognises it. I think someone here was looking into it.
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Offline benemorius

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #527 on: February 26, 2012, 01:05:27 am »
Simple business, and profit motive.
The same reason why even the cheaper brands like Rigol charge extra for software options.
It's not a charity.
Sure, Agilent could probably sell a 200MHz scope with all the software/memory bells and whistles for under $1K, and still likely make a profit. But it's not much of a profit, and it would just drag the entire scope industry down in a classic "race to the bottom".
So the manufacturers all know to play the game and make as much profit as they can get away with.

Dave.

Would the big for-profit businesses actually risk legal action from Agilent by disguising themselves as hobbyists just to get the hobbyist price and save a few thousand bucks? It has been my experience that the average business doesn't even risk pirating windows, and that's about as mundane as it gets for piracy I think.

I guess I'm assuming that the businesses would play it safe and pay the normal price for their features so Agilent still gets their big bucks as usual, then the hobbyists could get to have some of those same features at a much more realistic price which would then be even more money in Agilent's pockets, and we would all live happier ever after. Hypothetically the bulk of Agilent's sales wouldn't change at all, but they'd have a new source of income from hobbyists buying options at hobbyist-only prices.

It seems that the bottom line questions would be: how many businesses would reduce Agilent's income by cheating and taking the non-commercial price, and how many hobbyists would increase Agilent's income by bringing them sales which they otherwise wouldn't have made at the astronomically high commercial price, and which way would that end up tipping the scales?

I guess I'm just being naive as I don't really have any exposure to the corporate world, but I see a lot of hobbyists out there from my vantage point who are all eager to finally have some of the conveniences which have thus far been unobtainable. We're almost all willing to take what we want as long as no harm is done, but we'd very much prefer having the option to give something back for it in return.
 

Offline benemorius

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #528 on: February 26, 2012, 01:14:35 am »
VGA isn't particularly useful, and is fairly complicated due to the FPGA- LAN however looks like little more than connecting a magjack, assuming the software recognises it. I think someone here was looking into it.

Sad but true. I really, really wish that LAN had just been a standard option. It would be very handy for me. As for the VGA, I really miss being able to display waveforms on a spare monitor. My lab setup is such that being able to see what's happening on my scope from across the room is rather handy. Not $500 handy, but probably $100 handy. Actually, now that I think about it, LAN and VGA could probably have been either/or options for me. How ironic that they come together on the same add-on module. :-\
 

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #529 on: February 26, 2012, 01:28:28 am »
Would the big for-profit businesses actually risk legal action from Agilent by disguising themselves as hobbyists just to get the hobbyist price and save a few thousand bucks? It has been my experience that the average business doesn't even risk pirating windows, and that's about as mundane as it gets for piracy I think.

I guess I'm assuming that the businesses would play it safe and pay the normal price for their features so Agilent still gets their big bucks as usual, then the hobbyists could get to have some of those same features at a much more realistic price which would then be even more money in Agilent's pockets, and we would all live happier ever after. Hypothetically the bulk of Agilent's sales wouldn't change at all, but they'd have a new source of income from hobbyists buying options at hobbyist-only prices.

It seems that the bottom line questions would be: how many businesses would reduce Agilent's income by cheating and taking the non-commercial price, and how many hobbyists would increase Agilent's income by bringing them sales which they otherwise wouldn't have made at the astronomically high commercial price, and which way would that end up tipping the scales?

I guess I'm just being naive as I don't really have any exposure to the corporate world, but I see a lot of hobbyists out there from my vantage point who are all eager to finally have some of the conveniences which have thus far been unobtainable. We're almost all willing to take what we want as long as no harm is done, but we'd very much prefer having the option to give something back for it in return.

You forgot about the administration cost of trying to enforce all this, just like education licenses for things take a lot of effort to enforce.
If it was as easy as ticking a box on the online order form ("I'm a hobbyist") and you instantly get your discount of freebie, then you can bet your bottom dollar everyone would be ticking the box.

This is an age old argument and can be said about almost every product and market like this.
It is much easier to do, and to find compelling arguments for non-physical products like EDA software, but in the end it's the same argument, what do you provide to who and for how much?
The idea of giving all the bells and whistles in a hardware product to a hobbyist is questionable. Because then when (if) they move into the professional circles, will they upgrade that gear? Where is the upgrade path? They already got the top-notch product at a give-away price.

But at the end of the day, Agilent's market has and always will be professionals. There is likely very little business case for them to give special deals to target hobbyists.

Dave.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuffTopic starter

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #530 on: February 26, 2012, 11:40:43 am »

But at the end of the day, Agilent's market has and always will be professionals. There is likely very little business case for them to give special deals to target hobbyists.

Dave.
True but I do sometimes wonder why they haven't locked down trials more than they could (easily) have done, don't require any sort of agreement to terms when requesting them, and don't forward details from trial requests to distributors for follow-up sales calls.
BTW has anyone tried requesting a new trial after one died due to an expiry before a FW update?

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #531 on: February 26, 2012, 12:00:06 pm »
True but I do sometimes wonder why they haven't locked down trials more than they could (easily) have done, don't require any sort of agreement to terms when requesting them, and don't forward details from trial requests to distributors for follow-up sales calls.

Maybe it's because their sales numbers (and income) is so massively professionally oriented, that they simply don't care about the dregs.
i.e. the vast majority of customer aren't spending their own money, but the companies money, so they would never bother to rip off a license.
And those who might try and rip them off/hack things is so far down in the financial noise they can't even measure it? (no T&M pun intended)

Dave.
 

Offline sgyuri

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #532 on: February 26, 2012, 03:34:06 pm »
I need a MSO License

Call Agilent. They are for sure happy to sell you one.

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Offline Bored@Work

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #533 on: February 26, 2012, 03:46:03 pm »
I am not saying I want anything for free. When you go with Agilent you know you have to pay up.

I don't want features being more expensive, because Agilent has to manage them separately. And also in my job, I don't want to have to deal with ordering options and licenses. Ordering them are a hassle. You order the wrong one, or someone gets it wrong. Or your boss removes the item from the order, thinking you are just wasting money, and not telling you. Your purchase department screws up. And money for licenses come from another budget, requiring additional approval. If it is a license, the license administration policy and the police enforcing it comes into play. Arrrrg :( ...

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Offline kaz911

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #535 on: February 29, 2012, 05:29:45 pm »
and new manual

http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/75019-97051.pdf

Firmware installed :-) and to get the DVM you press the Analyze button and select DVM from softbutton 1 (Features)

and DVM is still available even if channel is disabled.

quite nice :-)
 

Offline knossos

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #536 on: March 04, 2012, 10:52:19 am »
Hi,


True, but the whole board replacement sounds like an expensive method for a “fully upgradable scope” and what happens with the old board? The lower models also come with a different set of probes included.

Where are you guys seeing the securedatatool.exe thing

Inside the first .cab file you will find infiniiVisionSetup.cab. Extract this and read _setup.xml to find the original files names (just rename, no compression is used)

AGILEN~1.002 -> Agilent.Cdf.Api.dll
INFINI~1.017 -> infiniiVisionCore.dll

Open the infiniiVisionCore.dll with a resource editor like PE Explorer to extract the secure data tool. Agilent.Cdf.Api.dll seems to be where the license info is checked and has 2 1024 bit (public) keys. The private key of one can be found in the secure tool.

Code: [Select]
E: 0x10001
P: 57...
Q: vi...
N: rB.......
D: lv.......

Not going to dig any deeper, I don’t even have the scope. Maybe if I had a few beers before seeing Dave’s review I had one by now  ;D

I know this post is quite old already, but does anyone have that old firmware version so that I can extract the tool from it ?
Newer firmware versions don't include the tool anymore ;)
 

Offline mikeselectricstuffTopic starter

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #537 on: March 04, 2012, 11:35:39 am »
Bear in mind Agilent were aware of the mistake, and could have changed keys in later firmware.
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Offline knossos

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #538 on: March 04, 2012, 12:40:09 pm »
Bear in mind Agilent were aware of the mistake, and could have changed keys in later firmware.

I'm aware of that. I just want to have a look at it.
 

Offline tnt

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #539 on: April 05, 2012, 06:26:17 pm »
There are new "license" options: asv_3k & cableCal_3k  No idea what they're for.
 

Offline Senf

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #540 on: April 07, 2012, 08:07:55 pm »
Hi,

I just got my X2014. As Dave mentioned in his vid, the 2000 series is only capable of "measuring" frequency upon what's on screen, so that is neither very accurate nor even possible when zooming in too far.

However there's a cool feature with the DVM (which you basically get for free with the current offers): It has a frequency display of it's own which is (my guess) based on the *hardware* counter. So no matter what's on screen, you get a steady and reliable 5-digit frequency readout. Thought anyone interested in the scope might wanna know, I like it alot.  8)

Also, the voltage readouts are more steady and accurate, and obviously based on a different source than the screen readout you get from "measurements". So you actually do get quite some value for your $75,- if you're considering upgrading an earlier model.

Regards
Sven
 

Offline tnt

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #541 on: April 07, 2012, 08:48:05 pm »
You always had access to the hw counter in the measurements as well, it's not under "frequency", it is under "counter".
 

Offline Senf

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #542 on: April 08, 2012, 12:00:05 am »
Ah, hadn't found that one yet, thanks  :)
 

Offline benemorius

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #543 on: April 08, 2012, 04:06:42 am »
You always had access to the hw counter in the measurements as well, it's not under "frequency", it is under "counter".

Does the 2000X series have that? I was thinking it was on the 3000X series only.
 

Offline Senf

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #544 on: April 08, 2012, 02:22:46 pm »
Well I just checked and nope, on the 2000 there is no "counter" option available in the measurements (FW 2.10). Not sure if tnt found it somewhere else?
There are counters listed in the snapshot screen, but again on the 2000 you do not get any values there (only "--"). Same for a few other measurements that are probably 3000 only.

So yeah, it seems the only access to the hw counter on the 2000 is via the DVM.
 

Offline tnt

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #545 on: April 08, 2012, 08:25:52 pm »
I have a 3054X ... I didn't know it wasn't on the 2000-X.
 

Offline kaz911

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #546 on: April 16, 2012, 02:11:19 am »
There are new "license" options: asv_3k & cableCal_3k  No idea what they're for.

ASV is Agilent Spectrum Visualiser :-) and just upgraded to 2.11 and tried it - it is a neat little "spectrum analyser (analyzer for US guys) - and on the 2000 and 3000 series it can start the wavegen and output 20MHz sine wave, 10MHz pulse or just pulse.

It scans the full bandwidth of your scope - and makes nice FFT displays (on the pc) and makes spectrogram displays (waterfall or horizontal)

quite neat.

I have not found the CableCal_3k yet.

anyhow - nice extension and price is about Euro 400.

PDF Link : http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5991-0129EN.pdf

/Kaz
 

Offline wsmith

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #547 on: April 17, 2012, 12:22:00 pm »
There are new "license" options: asv_3k & cableCal_3k  No idea what they're for.

Looking forward to see what cableCal_3k means :-)
 

Offline PsychedelicBreakfast

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #548 on: October 15, 2012, 04:09:58 pm »
Has agilent made License only upgrades obsolete?

http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5990-7759EN.pdf - this document suggest so. I was interested in a MSOX3024 but can't afford it all at once. I was hoping to buy the DSOX3014 and upgrading that later on as I needed the additional bandwidth and serial decoding.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuffTopic starter

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Re: New Agilent scopes
« Reply #549 on: October 17, 2012, 08:39:48 am »
Has agilent made License only upgrades obsolete?

http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5990-7759EN.pdf - this document suggest so. I was interested in a MSOX3024 but can't afford it all at once. I was hoping to buy the DSOX3014 and upgrading that later on as I needed the additional bandwidth and serial decoding.
My reading of that is that only upgrades that go over 350MHz require return - it's not quite clear what is now obsolete
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