Home Rooftop Solar Power System Update - Shattered Panel!

[WN1X]

I have been contacted by LG Australia, and they said that not a single one of these panels has ever shattered in over 300,000 installed in this country. Not by hail or anything else.

I would think that would be enough for them to come out and see the damage first hand. And, perhaps, provide a free replacement panel 

[Brumby]

I have been contacted by LG Australia, and they said that not a single one of these panels has ever shattered in over 300,000 installed in this country. Not by hail or anything else.

An impressive record.  I would think they would be rather interested to examine it to try and determine the how and why of it's failure.

There is one reservation - and that is whether they are being absolutely honest about the zero failure .  I say that not to make such an accusation, but to allow for the possibility that a marketing spin had been placed on the statement.  I will add that I believe such an action is rather unlikely since, in today's internet culture, there is almost nowhere to hide.


I am interested to hear what LG does next - and whether Dave is up for a warranty claim or an expense.

[tszaboo]

I have been contacted by LG Australia, and they said that not a single one of these panels has ever shattered in over 300,000 installed in this country. Not by hail or anything else.

So there is 1 broken out of 300.000 and you said the glass is the most expensive part of the panels?
I smell over engineering. I would take a few percent discount for even a ten-hundred fold failure easily.

[LabSpokane]

I have been contacted by LG Australia, and they said that not a single one of these panels has ever shattered in over 300,000 installed in this country. Not by hail or anything else.

Dave,

 LG may not have seen a shattered panel, but it's a little hard to believe that this is the first time it's ever happened. 

And for those criticizing the cost of the glass, that's actually one of the key efficiency features of a panel: the glass needs to be thin in order to be as transmissive of light as possible.  Surely that has to come at a cost.  I wouldn't be surprised if there's a coating involved. 

[edpalmer42]

I have been contacted by LG Australia, and they said that not a single one of these panels has ever shattered in over 300,000 installed in this country. Not by hail or anything else.

Dave,

 LG may not have seen a shattered panel, but it's a little hard to believe that this is the first time it's ever happened. 

And for those criticizing the cost of the glass, that's actually one of the key efficiency features of a panel: the glass needs to be thin in order to be as transmissive of light as possible.  Surely that has to come at a cost.  I wouldn't be surprised if there's a coating involved.

How many times have you phoned tech support and heard "No one has ever reported that problem before"?

Yeah, right. 

Ed

[ruffy91]

At my university there is a project with panels following the sun. There are 10 of them on a pole about 3m high. One night all of them shattered and the damage looked very similar.
It was kids wo threw stones at them (ca. 100g
-500g range).

[EEVblog]

LG may not have seen a shattered panel, but it's a little hard to believe that this is the first time it's ever happened. 

That's all we have to go on.
They have not seen one, and no reports from any installers in Oz.

And for those criticizing the cost of the glass, that's actually one of the key efficiency features of a panel: the glass needs to be thin in order to be as transmissive of light as possible.  Surely that has to come at a cost.  I wouldn't be surprised if there's a coating involved.

Solar glass is also very low iron content which helps with the transmittance.

[EEVblog]

An impressive record.  I would think they would be rather interested to examine it to try and determine the how and why of it's failure.

They are sure it's a large vertical impact.

I am interested to hear what LG does next - and whether Dave is up for a warranty claim or an expense.

They want to give me a free replacement. I just have to get it installed.

[coppice]

I have been contacted by LG Australia, and they said that not a single one of these panels has ever shattered in over 300,000 installed in this country. Not by hail or anything else.

The statement from LG is meaningless. The best they could reasonably claim is that they are unaware of a shattered panel. Impact damage like Dave's panel isn't going to be repaired under warranty, so the failure would never be reported to LG. I wonder how many single panels they have sold to previous domestic purchasers of array sized bundles of panels? That might say something about the number of failures due to damage.

[Brumby]

I am interested to hear what LG does next - and whether Dave is up for a warranty claim or an expense.

They want to give me a free replacement. I just have to get it installed.

Good news.

[EEVblog]

The statement from LG is meaningless. The best they could reasonably claim is that they are unaware of a shattered panel.

Of course that is what they meant.

[IanB]

The statement from LG is meaningless. The best they could reasonably claim is that they are unaware of a shattered panel. Impact damage like Dave's panel isn't going to be repaired under warranty, so the failure would never be reported to LG.

I rather doubt that. Warranty or no, if I had a panel break I would be calling the manufacturer to report it.

Sure, with cheap items I would write off the loss as one of those things, but with expensive items I sure as heck would follow up on a failure.

[coppice]

The statement from LG is meaningless. The best they could reasonably claim is that they are unaware of a shattered panel. Impact damage like Dave's panel isn't going to be repaired under warranty, so the failure would never be reported to LG.

I rather doubt that. Warranty or no, if I had a panel break I would be calling the manufacturer to report it.

Sure, with cheap items I would write off the loss as one of those things, but with expensive items I sure as heck would follow up on a failure.

If I had a panel damaged by the weather I would be claiming under warranty on the basis of the panel's fitness for purpose. Are you really saying you would complain about accidental high impact damage? Would you complain to Michelin if someone slashes your car tyres? Some things are outside the manufacturer's control, and most people are reasonable enough to accept that.

[Paul Moir]

Some things are outside the manufacturer's control, and most people are reasonable enough to accept that.

Sure, but if you say have a surplus in your warranty contingency fund, perhaps you would want to spend it on some good will?  Can be good for both the manufacturer and the unfortunate. 

[coppice]

Some things are outside the manufacturer's control, and most people are reasonable enough to accept that.

Sure, but if you say have a surplus in your warranty contingency fund, perhaps you would want to spend it on some good will?  Can be good for both the manufacturer and the unfortunate. 

Well, if Dave's free replacement panel gets significant publicity maybe we'll find just how many people have had a panel broken.

[coppice]

One of the reasons to buy from a top brand with big money is to get A++ service. Somehow like an insurance service.

Just like Apple care, they cover any damage, including water damage and falling damage.

Some products are sold with an explicit inclusion of accidental damage cover. Most are sold with anything beyond "fair wear and tear" explicitly excluded. Top brands may look at accidental damage, and cover cases where the product failed too easily, but don't expect too much from them.

Apple is a poor example to choose. For a long time they refused warranty claims for any phone with the humidity stickers triggered. That included pretty much every phone sold in a humid climate.

[SeanB]

Samsung here has a 2 free repairs under warranty policy on the larger units sold from around mid last year. Covers a single screen replacement or a single glass replacement, irrespective of the cause. They do however show on the invoice the amount you would otherwise have had to pay for this, along with the reminder that the next one is not free. Seeing as they are the largest seller in the smartphone market this is a good selling point.

[station240]

LG may not have seen a shattered panel, but it's a little hard to believe that this is the first time it's ever happened. 

That's all we have to go on.
They have not seen one, and no reports from any installers in Oz.

I'm sure installers have broken them during transport/installation.
Possible it is the first reported to them as damaged after install.

[coppice]

Solar glass is also very low iron content which helps with the transmittance.

Low iron glass as an option for domestic glazing makes a big difference to the price of windows. With solar panels having become very price sensitive, I wonder how many actually use this type of glass?

[Someone]

Solar glass is also very low iron content which helps with the transmittance.

Low iron glass as an option for domestic glazing makes a big difference to the price of windows. With solar panels having become very price sensitive, I wonder how many actually use this type of glass?

In volume most glasses are cheap, multilayer wideband antireflective coatings for the glass would be the expensive part (while being cheap to put on the silicon its self). There are even cheaper plastic films you can use instead of glass but they have comparatively poor impact protection. Losses in the protective layers/coatings are a very small part of the efficiency of the assembled panel so there is lots of wiggle room to use less than ideal parts.

[Someone]

Here is a good example of the challenges of AR coatings:
http://info.adimec.com/blogposts/bid/40330/Anti-reflection-coatings-improve-accuracy-for-high-performance-cameras
So with a good quality AR coating you could push an extra 4-6% light through to the cells (which will heat up more etc so wont see the whole gain) so that 4% on an 18% assembly only brings you up to 18.8%. Small gains but the wider literature says prices are coming down enough that its becoming routine for solar panel assemblies, but while they dont mention the typical improvements or efficacy of the coating its just another meaningless marketing point which may or may not actually improve performance of the panel.

[Rasz]

The statement from LG is meaningless. The best they could reasonably claim is that they are unaware of a shattered panel. Impact damage like Dave's panel isn't going to be repaired under warranty, so the failure would never be reported to LG.

I rather doubt that. Warranty or no, if I had a panel break I would be calling the manufacturer to report it.

Sure, with cheap items I would write off the loss as one of those things, but with expensive items I sure as heck would follow up on a failure.

If I had a panel damaged by the weather I would be claiming under warranty on the basis of the panel's fitness for purpose. Are you really saying you would complain about accidental high impact damage? Would you complain to Michelin if someone slashes your car tyres? Some things are outside the manufacturer's control, and most people are reasonable enough to accept that.

of course he would, this is why insurance companies invented new type of insurance just for the US market, the 'I dont give a f' type where you can claim it if you 'accidentally' threw your phone into the wall during heated argument, or dropped it in the toilet.

One of the reasons to buy from a top brand with big money is to get A++ service. Somehow like an insurance service.
Just like Apple care, they cover any damage, including water damage and falling damage.

mm the Apple myth is strong with this one
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204104
no, you need a special moron insurance for that

[thm_w]

In volume most glasses are cheap, multilayer wideband antireflective coatings for the glass would be the expensive part (while being cheap to put on the silicon its self). There are even cheaper plastic films you can use instead of glass but they have comparatively poor impact protection. Losses in the protective layers/coatings are a very small part of the efficiency of the assembled panel so there is lots of wiggle room to use less than ideal parts.

We used a plastic/epoxy coated panel for a while at work and it was horrific. The coating is soft so scratched easily, and dirt would stick or embed itself in the surface.
I'm sure there are better parts out there, but I can't think of where you'd ever want to use the cheap panels we got.

[rs20]

They use Physical Vapor Deposition (PVD) using a hard vacuum to put the silly decorative metallic finish on plastic kitchen blenders; it becomes economic with large quantities. And very nice antireflective coatings are commonplace in camera lenses.

With that in mind, I'd be very surprised if the glass used in solar panels wasn't coated (at least on the underside) -- it seems like a very easy efficiency win for a very low recurring cost?  I know the glass panels are larger than camera lens elements, but still.

Also, regarding antireflective coatings being delicate: yeah, making a coating that is both durable, not overly sticky, and antireflective is a difficult compromise. But don't forget that the underside of the glass is a potential reflection point. Even if they only coated the underside of the glass, that still halves your reflection losses, and the side of the glass that sees the outside environment is dead-standard uncoated glass (or differently coated).

[LabSpokane]

PV panels are very cost sensitive. From the perspective of a utility company, to make this cost effective (forget about the California rubbish renewable energy regulations, we only talk money), at large scale, only the cheapest and most robust ones can be used. Efficiency does not matter, unless it is too low.

Utility companies run on very low margin with very high initial capital, and are regulated heavily by regulatory bodies.

I did a case study on Alabama Power, it reveals if we do not use existing infrastructure, and build a new grid in Alabama, we have to sell energy for >10cents per kWh to make acceptable profit to get invested.

You need to keep in mind that Dave is not a utility trying to repurpose a brownfield site. Dave bought the LG panels due to their quality and efficiency.  Trying to optimize the output from a fixed size rooftop is a slightly different value proposition than utility-scale solar. Dave knowingly paid a premium and got great service when he had a problem.