EEVblog + The Signal Path Discussion

[nctnico]

For cat-lovers with sensitive natures - do not read this next paragraph.
However, one day he went to start the lawnmower and discovered - the hard way - that the cat had curled up underneath.  What followed does not bear describing - but the cat was in a very bad way.  Rushed to the vet, the cat was saved at great expense and after a lengthy recovery, returned home to lead a remarkably normal life.

This reminds me of an incident which will please Dave because it involves a flattened cat: During car driving lessons I ran over a cat which jumped right in front of the wheel. More precisely my driving instructor and I drove over a cat because the car had the (mandatory) dual controls and we where both unable to step on the brakes. I guess it's Darwin's cat now. Fortunately the owner wasn't too shaken up about it because they had too many cats already despite the fact this wasn't the first cat of theirs which had met the same fate.

[yym]

Long time fan/hater of both channels.
Interesting video, maybe in the future you could do more talks like this with the other electronics youtube guys like Allen and Mike.

Here are my thoughts on the video, unfiltered with unnecessary rudeness.

Shahriar, like your videos, they are very educational, presented in a professional yet pleasant manner, keep on doing this, I would only like to see more videos from you.
Dave, can you be more like Shahriar, you know … more science less nonsense.

I don’t like or understand why you have to discuss topics like religion, this is electronics channel, so please keep to electronics, you will offend people regardless of your beliefs.
I knew Dave is an atheist and is sort of asshole about it, but you know … that’s just Dave, everyone who believes something else than him is an uneducated idiot, and it is his personal duty to educate them.
From the discussion it seems like you Shahriar are atheist as well, that is fine, you can believe whatever you want, but just keep that for yourself, in the end I’ve lost a little bit of respect for you.

I don’t want to touch religion too much, but only consider this, Dave, you are a reasonably intelligent man (not a very good engineer though, from my subjective opinion), smarter than most men, but you can accept that there are many who are smarter than you, and some of them are engineers and doctors and biologists who understand in much more detail how nature, how evolution, how humans work, and yet they are religious. And then, there is you yapping around calling them uneducated idiots. In the end science cannot prove or disprove God. Everyone is free to believe what they want.

It was interesting to see the contrast between you two, you could not be more different.
Shahriar – full level professionalism, sure of himself, confident
Dave – you seem very unsecure trying not to say something stupid, acting silly, if you watch the videos again you will see, you’ve interrupted Shahriar several time with nonsense, drinking, coughing and generally being agitated like a child on sugars. Also I’ve never noticed this before, you have very feminine mannerisms, you acted like a woman talk show host, who is not very familiar with the topic, trying to laugh at everything … just watch the videos again, you will not be able to unsee it, once you realize it.

Overall it was ok I guess, I warned that I will be rude, make more videos like this in the future.
Dave, you get extra asshole points for hating cats.

[Hugoneus]

Long time fan/hater of both channels.
Interesting video, maybe in the future you could do more talks like this with the other electronics youtube guys like Allen and Mike.
Here are my thoughts on the video, unfiltered with unnecessary rudeness.

What do you call a person who is unnecessary rude?

Shahriar, like your videos, they are very educational, presented in a professional yet pleasant manner, keep on doing this, I would only like to see more videos from you. Dave, can you be more like Shahriar, you know … more science less nonsense.

As far as I know Dave's videos are scientific. When he expresses an opinion or preference he says so as well.

I don’t like or understand why you have to discuss topics like religion, this is electronics channel, so please keep to electronics, you will offend people regardless of your beliefs.

When did we discuss religion specifically? Can you point to it?

I knew Dave is an atheist and is sort of asshole about it, but you know … that’s just Dave, everyone who believes something else than him is an uneducated idiot, and it is his personal duty to educate them.

Dave does not think anyone who thinks differently than him is an idiot. He is opinionated and animated. You are mistaking style with intent. It sounds more like you are projecting.

From the discussion it seems like you Shahriar are atheist as well, that is fine, you can believe whatever you want, but just keep that for yourself, in the end I’ve lost a little bit of respect for you.

How did you conclude that? When did I use the work atheist or even religion? Again, point to it please. Not that I care either way, but I am curious if I was hallucinating and don't remember.

I don’t want to touch religion too much, but only consider this, Dave, you are a reasonably intelligent man (not a very good engineer though, from my subjective opinion), smarter than most men, but you can accept that there are many who are smarter than you, and some of them are engineers and doctors and biologists who understand in much more detail how nature, how evolution, how humans work, and yet they are religious. And then, there is you yapping around calling them uneducated idiots. In the end science cannot prove or disprove God.

Again, when did we say any of this?!

Everyone is free to believe what they want.

Yes, as long as it does not step on the rights of others, or limit the freedom of others.

It was interesting to see the contrast between you two, you could not be more different.
Shahriar – full level professionalism, sure of himself, confident
Dave – you seem very unsecure trying not to say something stupid, acting silly, if you watch the videos again you will see, you’ve interrupted Shahriar several time with nonsense, drinking, coughing and generally being agitated like a child on sugars. Also I’ve never noticed this before, you have very feminine mannerisms, you acted like a woman talk show host, who is not very familiar with the topic, trying to laugh at everything … just watch the videos again, you will not be able to unsee it, once you realize it.

Dave had a cough the whole time. It was bothering him and he was trying his best to not interrupt the video. He kept on apologizing to me. Pretty much everything that we talked about we had talked about earlier during the day. Dave was making sure he touched upon everything that we wanted to mention and that we would not miss anything. Not once did I get the impression that Dave was anything other than a joy to spend time with. He guided the discussion in an entirely unscripted video.

Again is sounds like you are just projecting.

Overall it was ok I guess, I warned that I will be rude, make more videos like this in the future.
Dave, you get extra asshole points for hating cats.

Warning that you will be rude only makes it worse.

[Hugoneus]

Sometimes Shariar sounds like an aging grad student.  He is familiar with his thesis topic and his corner of the lab (and loves to talk about it), but missing some basic real world stuff.

Funny that my thesis topic never even came up since I have not worked on that specific topic for 7 years now. But you know, internet is full of experts and mind readers.

Like his comment that III-V semiconductors need hermetic packages.  Totally wrong.  Millions of GaAs and GaN parts are sold every month in non-hermetic packages.  Billions of parts have been in the field for decades.  So let's set the record straight.
You would think a microwave engineer would know this stuff.

Every III-V device I have ever used and seen has been hermetically sealed. We don't make any modules without hermetically sealing them.  Perhaps there are non-sealed devices. Maybe you can point to a reference for the millions of them being shipped each month?

Clearly he's a smart guy.  It's a casual discussion and he misspoke on that one,  as he does occasionally in his other videos.  No big deal I guess. 

Obviously important enough to insult.

[nfmax]

I've only just found time to watch these videos, and I'd like to say how much I enjoyed them. One topic that you almost touched on I would have loved to hear you discuss - why are there so few women in electronics, and to a lesser extent, in technology generally?

[coppice]

Every III-V device I have ever used and seen has been hermetically sealed. We don't make any modules without hermetically sealing them.  Perhaps there are non-sealed devices. Maybe you can point to a reference for the millions of them being shipped each month?

I think you may be looking at this a little too narrowly. How many LEDs have you seen in hermetically sealed packages?

[lem_ix]

Watched all three and loved seeing you together. You've both been a great inspiration over the past few years. Hopefully there will be more stuff like this in the future
 
As for people unsubscribing ... please leave faster    it's as if they've watched some different video from me

[Fungus]

I liked the second one best.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

I'd love to hear Shahriar's opinion on patents.

[yym]

Hello Shahriar, nice to see you here

Since you asked some questions allow me to try to answer some of them, I will try to be less rude this time.

To your first question: I don’t know, why don’t you tell me?

I would make a distinction between two cases at least. When someone is rude on purpose, with the goal to disrupt, hurt or humiliate, embarrass people etc (you get the idea) and when you come off as rude because you are being blunt, you speak your mind, you don’t consider people’s feelings, just raw, unprocessed but genuine opinion that has the sideffect of being rude.

If I would have more time for this, then it would be a constructive criticism, you know.. the same thing in essence, but nicely wrapped, sugar coated. This process of sugar coating things takes time and effort, and I don’t like doing it, just as Dave doesn’t like doing demos, too much effort.

By the way is there such a thing as necessary rudeness? I should look that up, maybe there is TED talk or something about that.


To your second question: Religion was discussed in part 2, towards the end, initially only circling around the subject, actively trying to avoid it, then at some point Dave explicitly mentions religion, the discussion had the overall setup as truth vs false truth, and science and scientific method being in the first category, and religion in the second category together with pseudoscience and bullshit. Dave uses some really nice adjectives for people that have something to do with the second category like nutcases, idiots, uneducated idiots, idiots who believe in something.

I believe ‘uneducated idiots’ is Dave’s terms for religious people (trademark pending?), he used it several times through the years, I noticed all the time, it always bothered me. Just watch the video and count how many time Dave uses ‘idiots’ . Dave tries not to laugh at these poor idiots, he tries to educate them.

Regarding my assumption/conclusion of you, no, you were not hallucinating, I will point to it, somewhere towards the middle, the theory of evolution comes up (yup, this was the theory that this discussion needed (also notice Dave’s double face palm)), you are defending it, you say you agree with most of what Sam Harris says, should I go on? Anyway this
is my opinion of you, this is how you come off, it is not necessarily correct or accurate, you don’t need to defend or explain yourself.

I could go on for ages but I will stop now.

I get it that you are upset and defensive, that is appropriate response, but keep in mind that my being rude is a side effect of being blunt, not sugar coating things, my intention is not to hurt someone.

This is just my opinion, you can sugar coat it, water it down, do whatever, but maybe you get more feedback like this, maybe there is some small truth to it.

Cheers,
yym

[rfeecs]

Every III-V device I have ever used and seen has been hermetically sealed. We don't make any modules without hermetically sealing them.  Perhaps there are non-sealed devices. Maybe you can point to a reference for the millions of them being shipped each month?

First, realize that plastic encapsulated devices are generally not considered hermetically sealed.
This page has a good discussion of the industry definition of hermeticity:
https://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedias/hermeticity

Coppice gave a great example of LEDs.  That blows the numbers I quoted out of the water.

Another example is cell phones.  Virtually all cell phones have GaAs HBT front end power amplifiers.  These front end modules are not hermetically sealed.

Satellite receivers for home TV use non-hermetic plastic packaged super low noise GaAs pHEMTs, lots of them.

EPC uses non hermetic chip scale packaging for their GaN parts.

All the plastic packaged GaAs and GaN parts from Qorvo, Skyworks, Analog Devices and others.

Obviously important enough to insult.

No insult intended.  Sorry if you took it that way. 

[rx8pilot]

Long time fan/hater of both channels.

W.T.F was that? (don't answer, I don't want to encourage this one)

I personally like the contrast between these two - Dave and Shahriar. With Dave, we get unfiltered and conversational opinions and off-the-cuff discussion of a wide variety of EE topics and issues. With the Signal Path we get a sharp focus on very high-level topics that are ridiculously well planned and executed. These are FREE to the public with an option to financially contribute. Neither one of these guys owes any of this to any of us. The discussions and community of the EEVblog and the Signal Path have been absolutely critical to my climb of the engineering ladder - including going back to school at 42 years old. I could not thank these two enough for the contribution to the engineering community. From hard facts to inspiration to building an enormous group of people learning, experimenting, and sharing knowledge. It is an F'ing amazing gift to a LOT of people - for FREE.

When I am learning something new, I generally get some books that cover the topic. This gives me an overview and mostly a very cold presentation of some challenging material. Dave and Shahriar offer the human component and a solid dose of practical reality. I think one thing neither of them really show people is the magnitude of effort it takes to do what they do. They may mention it is a pain in the ass periodically, but it seems the majority of the entitled consumer audience has silly expectations of free content produced by 1-2 people on a regular basis. I have been trying to start my own channel that focuses on manufacturing for a long time and simply cannot find the time to pull it off. It is very, very difficult (assuming I sleep every once in a while). Shahriar flew in specifically to do this sit-down discussion. He spent considerable time and money just to chat and share. That is a HUGE thumbs up! 

Thanks Dave and Shahriar.

[AF6LJ]

I love the long videos on The Signal Path, they are very well done and informative.

[SeanB]

Longevity and life, look at the intended market and the design lifetime. LED, pretty much cheap and any package costs more than the device in most cases, and you do not expect it to last decades in service. Same for mobile phone, designed to last 5 years at best, and with some moisture indicators to tell you it has been compromised, along with a dollop of moisture resistant coating on it so the active area is not going to corrode too fast and fail before warranty ends and the phone gets put into a drawer or sent as eWaste.

Shariar is talking about power devices, where the actual die cost more than the package, and where the design lifetime is more than a decade, and it must absolutely work for that, irrespective of any outside influence. Not Military, but telecoms and satellite use, along with test and measurement, where you do not have the "meter of the week", that you toss away and replace every 6 months, but will use for a good number of years to develop and service multiple generations of products. Those products might be classed as disposable, but the design equipment is not.

[Hugoneus]

...
yym

I went back and checked, religion was not discussed in any meaningfull way. Not that it matters.

Anyone who rejects a scientific theory without understanding it deserves a face palm. If after understanding it there is evidence to show that it must be adjusted or scrapped the evidence should be presented, published. That is how science works (and it does work most of the time).

Lucky for us science moves on and pockets of ignorance continue to be filled with understanding. There is a trend towards reasonoblness, with ocasional setbacks. That is all I care about.

[josecamoessilva]

Lucky for us science moves on and pockets of ignorance continue to be filled with understanding. There is a trend towards reasonoblness, with ocasional setbacks.

Would that it were so. Alas, there's no guarantee that knowledge defeats ignorance; or as the Demotivators poster says, never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups. 

(I liked the vids, even though don't necessarily agree with Dave & Shariar on everything; if people unsub because of these videos, then good riddance to them.)

[Brumby]

I watched all three videos within 2 hours.  I'm not normally able to spend that sort of time in what was pretty much a single stretch - but I had the chance and found it easy to do.

I haven't watched much of Shahriar's material to date - but this experience has warmed me to making a bit more of an effort to do so.


As far as anyone's "critique" is concerned - there are more than enough armchair warriors out there to realise you should always expect pot shots from them.  It's irritating when it happens - like a pebble in your shoe ... or stepping into a pile of you-know-what.  It's also necessary to known when to step away from the idea of engaging them in debate.  From what I have observed, they will never publicly recant any point or even listen to sound argument.  The best response is that they no longer make reference to subjects they have lost.


I'm happy to encourage Dave to follow through on any other such opportunities in the future.

The format is a bit of a departure from the norm - but so what.  Variety is the spice of life!

[Brumby]

Anyone who rejects a scientific theory without understanding it deserves a face palm.

To me, that would seem to be a somewhat fundamental principle (the understanding, not the facepalm).  How can you possibly say "No" to something when you don't understand what you are saying "No" to?

If after understanding it there is evidence to show that it must be adjusted or scrapped the evidence should be presented, published. That is how science works (and it does work most of the time).

You would think ... but for some, the idea of actually considering evidence is too much - let alone gathering and presenting it.  Something along the lines of "Don't let the facts get in the way".

[BU508A]

To me, that would seem to be a somewhat fundamental principle (the understanding, not the facepalm).  How can you possibly say "No" to something when you don't understand what you are saying "No" to?

Because of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

[Brumby]

I realise this - but it is still an ignorant rejection.

That the person does not believe their position to be uninformed only adds to the stupidity of their attitude - especially when they refuse to listen to any argument which will would show their existing knowledge is lacking.

[mtdoc]

That the person does not believe their position to be uninformed only adds to the stupidity of their attitude - especially when they refuse to listen to any argument which will would show their existing knowledge is lacking.

That would require require coming down from the peak where they are enjoying the view and descending into the valley below..

[Brumby]

That looks right.

I know one or two who like the view from Mt. Stupid, but getting them off that peak is sometimes impossible - especially via internet communications.

[josecamoessilva]

I know one or two who like the view from Mt. Stupid, but getting them off that peak is sometimes impossible - especially via internet communications.

The problem with D-K is that each side thinks the other suffers from it.

Really. And given how the side of knowledge has changed tactics since the 80s, from "let's persuade and educate the ignorant" to "let's monetize our echo chamber by mocking the ignorant," it's really no surprise.

It doesn't help that those on the side of knowledge sometimes (often, massively, overwhelmingly, choose your adverb) are lacking in that same knowledge. Like people who "love science," but can't answer 7th-grade science questions; or "debunkers" who make crass, freshman-year engineering mistakes; or best-selling authors of anti-religion books who keep using their hopelessly outdated 1970s-vintage model of evolution and sidestepping its socially inconvenient implications.

Carl Sagan's most misunderstood sentence was "extreme claims require extreme evidence," by which he meant that to persuade someone that their strongest-held beliefs are false, you need to make an overwhelming case to that person. Mental midgets following in Sagan's footsteps took that sentence to  mean that "anyone whom I disagree with must prove to me that they're right," which is the opposite of how persuasion works.

As I said, opportunists monetizing their echo chamber, riding on real scientists' work.

It makes no practical difference to the average person's life whether God exists, evolution is true, and climate change is happening; but when the people who answer (no, yes, yes) follow that with political statements, their credibility is lost and politics will drive the response of the average person.

Me, I just ask people who "love science" random questions like "the ISS orbits at an altitude of 400km, orbit takes hour and a half, Earth radius is 6370km, roughly how fast is the ISS moving?" and watch their eyes glaze over. (5th-grade science content.)

I don't argue religion; my position on God is "how would you tell the difference between God and a really powerful alien?"

[yym]

..

Wow, so much topic to cover, so little time.
Can you please expand on your post a little, I really want to understand you, but you are very brief.

I went back and checked, religion was not discussed in any meaningfull way. Not that it matters.

So you agree it was discussed in a way. Matters to whom? To you? Obviously mattered to some.

Anyone who rejects a scientific theory without understanding it deserves a face palm.

Now this is where things get tricky, what is the level of understating and level of rejection required to deserve a face palm? Usually things are not black and white…
Let’s take the theory of evolution for example. Have you or anyone here actually read the “On the Origin of Species”. Do you fully understand it in all its detail? I mean, do you also have a degree in biology?
So, let’s say you understand it at a general education level, you are a layman, but you have a rough understating of what it says.
In this case let’s say you reject only a tiny portion of it, that doesn’t change it in any meaningful way. You sort of understand it and you kind of reject it.. in this case do you deserve a facepalm? Where is the threshold? I’m curious…
This topic generated countless scientific and religious discussions, since it was published. But now we have the atheists (basically a bunch of ‘experts’ in just about everything) for help, they can settle this once and for all.

Lucky for us science moves on..

Who are you referring to by “us” and as opposed to whom?
And does science “move on” by itself, somehow? Or is it moved by people, many of whom (Dare I say, most of them?) being religious?

There is a trend towards reasonableness, with occasional setbacks.

Would you call Dave’s attitude towards religion  reasonableness, or setback?

...never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups. 

Yup, I fully agree, I mean, for sure you don’t mean than only stupid people can be religious, there could be a group of atheists that happened to be stupid, and their power grows as their stupidity grows, right? ‘stupid people’ such a nice term.

..armchair warriors..

– that supposed to be an insult? As opposed to what, regular warriors? I don't know… like Conan the barbarian or Xena the warrior princess? I agree, it is irritating. In your opinion why did Dave mention religion, what was the point of that?

..especially when they refuse to listen..

If this is not closed mindedness, I don't know what is. Because not you, but always the other has to lissen, never you, right? Your task is to set them straight.Becase there is no way that you can ever be even slightly wrong.

..

Very interresting article
Look at the second video, stop it at around 26:11 here Dave talks about.. and I quote  “..I don’t laugh at them, I try to educate them first..” (First? Why first? What follows next?) 
Now look at Dave's expression ,doesn’t  he looks like he’s feeling superior? Does he fails to reckognize his own lack of skill? Does he not recognize the extent of his inadequacy? Does he not accurately gauges skills in ‘idiots’? Now go back and read the article you’ve linked.

Dave this is part of your legacy, of which you are so proud of. Yup, this is normal educator behavior, most educators have really hard time trying not to laugh at ‘idiots’ who they are trying to educate (first?).

[josecamoessilva]

...never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups. 

Yup, I fully agree, I mean, for sure you don’t mean than only stupid people can be religious, there could be a group of atheists that happened to be stupid, and their power grows as their stupidity grows, right? ‘stupid people’ such a nice term.

The origin of this saying is lost in time (circa the 1990s), but the story goes someone asked a well-known business consultant why management consulting had so many fads, so many of them so obviously stupid (after the fact); his response was "never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."