EEVblog #978 - Keysight 1000X Hacking

[mrpackethead]

IANAL.  The Keysight legal department would be the people to ask.

I doubt you would get an unbiased view from Keysights legal department!

[Brumby]

Why would you need an unbiased view?

I would have thought their view would be EXACTLY the view that would be of interest.

[mrpackethead]

Because their view will be tainted by the fact they want you to belive that they have all the power.

What i want to know is what law would be broken, by swapping some resistors and reselling something you own.

Again i repeat i'm not at all interested in doing this.  Its not worth the drama but it is interesting

Now back to our normal programming.

[JuKu]

What i want to know is what law would be broken, by swapping some resistors and reselling something you own.

I'm not a lawyer, but I like to theorize. I don't think you'll break a law, but you might break a license or publish trade secrets. Now, if the resistor values are generally known, like published on an Internet forum, I think you could sell an "original" scope and offer to do the modifications for the buyer. Once. If you start making money doing that, then a whole lot of other laws ( country dependent, of course) about what are  acceptable business practices come to play. I'd guess you'd lose that.

I wouldn't do that either, but I might buy a Keysight, if my trusty HP ever dies.

[Fungus]

I am tempted to buy one of the DSOX 1000 scope just to get the Bode plot function.

Have you seen the bode plot?

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-scope-1st-march-2017/msg1153443/#msg1153443

[mikeselectricstuff]

What i want to know is what law would be broken, by swapping some resistors and reselling something you own.

I'm not a lawyer, but I like to theorize. I don't think you'll break a law, but you might break a license

You can only break a license if you have agreed to it. There is an EULA in the box but unless you admit to have read it, it's highly unlikely to be enforceable.

or publish trade secrets.

That is only an issue if you publish "inside" information, e.g. if you are an employee or came by info under NDA.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I am tempted to buy one of the DSOX 1000 scope just to get the Bode plot function.

Have you seen the bode plot?

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-scope-1st-march-2017/msg1153443/#msg1153443

Wait & see if they will improve the resolution. in its present form it's near-useless.
You can do frequency response plots using the wavegen ( FM modulation with ramp ,100%  symmetry, trigger from wavegen modulation)

[Fungus]

So given where this is going would you even bother going and buying a Rigol now?

The Fat Lady hasn't sung yet, and:
* Rigol hacking doesn't require taking it apart and soldering microscopic resistors. A lot of people aren't up for that
* Software hacking this hasn't even started yet and might prove difficult (eg. take it apart and use a JTAG programmer)
* It still costs 50% more than a Rigol and has less features (eg. less channels, less memory, no Ethernet)

But ... if an easy software hack appears for this it would be a very attractive option, yes.

[ebastler]

Well, even so, "just" with the already-confirmed(?) hacks, you can turn a 600$-ish 50MHz educational-wavegen one into a 1000$-ish >200MHz fully-fledged one... Which isn't too shabby in itself, imho.

Hang on, have I missed something? Has anyone confirmed that the resistor hack works using the 50MHz EDUX version as the starting point??

[mikeselectricstuff]

Well, even so, "just" with the already-confirmed(?) hacks, you can turn a 600$-ish 50MHz educational-wavegen one into a 1000$-ish >200MHz fully-fledged one... Which isn't too shabby in itself, imho.

Hang on, have I missed something? Has anyone confirmed that the resistor hack works using the 50MHz EDUX version as the starting point??

No.
Bear in mind it's possible there are hardware differences in the front end, as there isn't an official upgrade path for that model.

[EEVblog]

What i want to know is what law would be broken, by swapping some resistors and reselling something you own.

No law has been broken unless that's what a judge rules at the end of a court case.
The problem with cases like this are:
a) They are so rare that there is very little existing case law
b) Cases are always different and highly reliant upon technical detail an interpretation of existing laws that almost never cover that exact circumstance
c) They can be very often international in nature which complicates things enormously
d) They are very extensive and costly, and because they often have a broad reaching public interest nature, often go to the highest court in the land. They often become landmark trials so to speak if defended far enough.

[bitwelder]

So given where this is going would you even bother going and buying a Rigol now?

There are several other new scopes coming it seems, so waiting a little might make sense. Also the 1000X series doesn't have the software licenses hacked and I doubt that will happen anytime soon. For many people the DS1054Z may still be tough to beat - unless they prefer to see a higher end brand name on the bench(and who doesn't?).

And also, the Rigol is a full 4-channel scope, while the 1000X is... less than 3?

[EEVblog]

So given where this is going would you even bother going and buying a Rigol now?

There are several other new scopes coming it seems, so waiting a little might make sense. Also the 1000X series doesn't have the software licenses hacked and I doubt that will happen anytime soon. For many people the DS1054Z may still be tough to beat - unless they prefer to see a higher end brand name on the bench(and who doesn't?).

And also, the Rigol is a full 4-channel scope, while the 1000X is... less than 3?

I will have my hands on a new budget 2CH scope on Wed.
It's kinda weird in that there doesn't seem to be any date embargo with it, and the exchange will take place with trenchcoats outside the dumpster room at midnight.

[Brumby]

Intriguing.   

[Fungus]

So given where this is going would you even bother going and buying a Rigol now?

There are several other new scopes coming it seems, so waiting a little might make sense.

Wait a couple of weeks and see where this hacking goes. Be aware that the Keysight costs 50% more, has less features, and resistor hacking will almost certainly void the warranty. Even if you restore the original resistors it will probably be obvious that they're hand soldered.

(Rigol hacks can be removed in seconds with telnet and an Ethernet cable).

[mikeselectricstuff]

Even if you restore the original resistors it will probably be obvious that they're hand soldered.

Piggyback resistor with z-axis tape perhaps.

[firewalker]

I don;t believe it is illegal to resale "improved" hardware, if you don't sale the way to mod it. If that was the case a chip tuned car would be impossible to sale.

Alexander.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Poking around the front end, it appears the bandwidth is limited in the ADC/ASIC.
In 5V/div & up ranges it's actually good to about 350MHz. 

[mikeselectricstuff]

Most useful I found for an 1102G is 03, which gives 200MHz and 2GSps.

config 03 appears to have some subtle issues - CH2 edge trigger stops working when serial bus is enabled.

[Domagoj T]

So given where this is going would you even bother going and buying a Rigol now?

Now? Well, there may be a dilemma, but two years ago when I wanted a scope, DS1054Z was all the rage. I bought it because it has 4 channels (2 is nice, but 4 is more), hackable and affordable (or at least, within my purchasing power; I was asked by family members "How much did it cost? Do you really need that? What is it, anyway?" "A lot. No. An oscilloscope.").

If I was buying a scope today, perhaps I would choose some other brand and model, but two years ago, it was a good deal. Now I have a scope and honestly don't see a need for another one. This one is perfectly fine.
At this moment, even if Keysight was the same price as this Rigol, and had better features, I still wouldn't buy it for one simple reason - I already have a scope. Keysight was late to the party. I suspect I am not the only amateur hobbyist tinkerer that made the same decision.

[fullyBoricua]

Well, even so, "just" with the already-confirmed(?) hacks, you can turn a 600$-ish 50MHz educational-wavegen one into a 1000$-ish >200MHz fully-fledged one... Which isn't too shabby in itself, imho.

Hang on, have I missed something? Has anyone confirmed that the resistor hack works using the 50MHz EDUX version as the starting point??

EDU models come with 75Mhz probes... Highly unlikely EDU models will get to 200Mhz as the DSOXs.

Hope to be wrong though!

[mrpackethead]

What i want to know is what law would be broken, by swapping some resistors and reselling something you own.

I'm not a lawyer, but I like to theorize. I don't think you'll break a law, but you might break a license or publish trade secrets. Now, if the resistor values are generally known, like published on an Internet forum, I think you could sell an "original" scope and offer to do the modifications for the buyer. Once. If you start making money doing that, then a whole lot of other laws ( country dependent, of course) about what are  acceptable business practices come to play. I'd guess you'd lose that.

I wouldn't do that either, but I might buy a Keysight, if my trusty HP ever dies.

Is it ethical.. well thats a different discussion..

[tautech]

So given where this is going would you even bother going and buying a Rigol now?

There are several other new scopes coming it seems, so waiting a little might make sense. Also the 1000X series doesn't have the software licenses hacked and I doubt that will happen anytime soon. For many people the DS1054Z may still be tough to beat - unless they prefer to see a higher end brand name on the bench(and who doesn't?).

And also, the Rigol is a full 4-channel scope, while the 1000X is... less than 3?

I will have my hands on a new budget 2CH scope on Wed.
It's kinda weird in that there doesn't seem to be any date embargo with it, and the exchange will take place with trenchcoats outside the dumpster room at midnight.

The one mentioned here?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/scope-wait-for-new-models/msg1090385/#msg1090385

[Bud]

Is it ethical.. well thats a different discussion..

Well, this was not hard to predict

The ethics police will be here soon with their stock moral bankruptcy thing.

[mrpackethead]

Is it ethical.. well thats a different discussion..

Well, this was not hard to predict

The ethics police will be here soon with their stock moral bankruptcy thing.

Lets not have the ethics discussion here.. you can have it over there ---->