EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED

[timb]

But yes, they Brits are a lot more sensitive about the actual words. In the USA/Australia you could call a TV series "Bullshit!" and get away with it. Not in the UK.

I do highly recommend Penn & Teller: Bullshit! 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penn_%26_Teller:_Bullshit!
Should be required watching for all kids.

Penn is the dropper of more F bombs than any man alive I think if you follow his work. Yet everyone loves him, because, well, he's cool.

For sure!

In fact, I think the episodes "Sex, Sex, Sex" (Season 1) and "The War on Porn" (Season 6) should be mandatory required viewing for 6 year olds everywhere.


...



(In reality, I do think it's appropriate viewing for *teenagers* but maybe not kids. I mean, at 13 most are already voracious consumers of porn thanks to the Internet (and puberty). Most teens also swear. A lot. I know I did! In fact, a teacher once caught me swearing and said I shouldn't do that, because swearing means you have a small vocabulary, to which I replied, "It's a fucking colloquialism, bitch.")

[zapta]

But yes, they Brits are a lot more sensitive about the actual words. In the USA/Australia you could call a TV series "Bullshit!" and get away with it. Not in the UK.

I do highly recommend Penn & Teller: Bullshit! 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penn_%26_Teller:_Bullshit!
Should be required watching for all kids.

Penn is the dropper of more F bombs than any man alive I think if you follow his work. Yet everyone loves him, because, well, he's cool.

For sure!

In fact, I think the episodes "Sex, Sex, Sex" (Season 1) and "The War on Porn" (Season 6) should be mandatory required viewing for 6 year olds everywhere.

Mandatory? Everywhere?  Is this the new 'I think it's useful'?

[mikerj]

Swearing is used as a coping mechanism, but the listener experiences stress as a result.

That's bullshit.   Swearing can be used in many different contexts.   Hopefully no-one will judge the rest of the UK members by your over-sensitivity.

[bitslice]

Swearing can be used in many different contexts.   Hopefully no-one will judge the rest of the UK members by your over-sensitivity.

That's not my "over-sensitivity", I just looked up some psychological paper on the effect of swearing and that's basically what it said. It also reduces the reaction to pain.

An under researched topic apparently.

[djacobow]

Great video, and I have no problem with bullshit or even the occasional F-bomb.

I love swear words. They give an indication of emphasis in one word that you might otherwise need a paragraph to convey. Some stuff is so F-ing wrong, some people are so full of bullsh*t, that to use any other word is giving them too much credit.

And as for protecting the ears of the little ones, FFS, they're just words.

It's true, some people will not listen to a tirade with cursing. Mostly those are the same people who will avoid tirades with facts. There's no helping them.

[EEVblog]

(In reality, I do think it's appropriate viewing for *teenagers* but maybe not kids. I mean, at 13 most are already voracious consumers of porn thanks to the Internet (and puberty).

Yes, I don't mean I'd show it to Sagan. But hit high school...

[nctnico]

(In reality, I do think it's appropriate viewing for *teenagers* but maybe not kids. I mean, at 13 most are already voracious consumers of porn thanks to the Internet (and puberty).

Yes, I don't mean I'd show it to Sagan. But hit high school...

Regarding pron: when they are interested they are interested. Before puberty kids aren't interested in it anyway. An interesting test is the picture below. Small kids will see dolphins:

[EEVblog]

But when it comes to debating this in a wider world you've unfortunately lumbered the video with baggage that makes it toxic to lay people.

Because I use the word bullshit once at the end of a 15 minute minute video?
Don't think you're overreacting just a tad?

[timb]

(In reality, I do think it's appropriate viewing for *teenagers* but maybe not kids. I mean, at 13 most are already voracious consumers of porn thanks to the Internet (and puberty).

Yes, I don't mean I'd show it to Sagan. But hit high school...

Yeah, exactly. If I had a kid, 15-16 is about when I'd show it to them (maybe a tad earlier, depending on their maturity). Not even because of the content, mind you, I'd just want to make sure they could fully comprehend it and be able to discuss it with them afterwards.

(In reality, I do think it's appropriate viewing for *teenagers* but maybe not kids. I mean, at 13 most are already voracious consumers of porn thanks to the Internet (and puberty).

Yes, I don't mean I'd show it to Sagan. But hit high school...

Regarding pron: when they are interested they are interested. Before puberty kids aren't interested in it anyway. An interesting test is the picture below. Small kids will see dolphins:

What does it mean when I instantly see tiny dolphins jumping around a naked woman being gently caressed?

[Fungus]

Swearing can be used in many different contexts.   Hopefully no-one will judge the rest of the UK members by your over-sensitivity.

That's not my "over-sensitivity"

Yes it is.

I just looked up some psychological paper on the effect of swearing and that's basically what it said. It also reduces the reaction to pain.

If you saw a psychology paper that said:

Swearing is used as a coping mechanism.

Then you know right there that it's bullshit. At best you could say swearing can be used as a coping mechanism.

PS: Psychology papers? 99% waffle/bullshit. Sigmund Freud, the most famous psychologist in history? Wrong about almost everything.

It (swearing) also reduces the reaction to pain.

So does singing ... or anything else that distracts the brain.

[edy]

What about this product on the shelves of my local supermarket:

http://www.amazon.ca/Holy-Crap-Breakfast-Cereal-Ounce/dp/B00BOXHMG2

It may not be Bull $4!t but it is close enough. Crap better substitute? Bullcrap? How does crap fare on the profanity scale?

[JohnMoosenl]

The one thing Dave doesn't address but is very likely the reason why solar roadways actually DO make sense: SPACE.

Because the ridiculous number of practical downsides of using them as a road surface completely trumps the fact that it might make sense in theory.
You shouldn't invest in something that just makes sense in theory, if the practical downsides are already known, and demonstrably will not get better with time.

Still... what if roads end up to be the only place left to place additional solar panels? This is very unlikely in Australia because there is a lot of space out there where you could build a huge solar farm but in Europe there is not much space for solar panels. And there is always the 'great but not in my back yard effect'. In the NL they already have trouble putting wind turbines several tens of kilometers off-shore because people complain their view over the sea will be affected. The same goes for solar panels mounted at their optimum angle: the space available for that is very limited in cities where it has to look pleasant as well.

Its becoming a serious nuisance on land too with these ugly wind mills. 

[mux]

The main reason for putting wind turbines off-shore isn't public perception, but generating potential (and consistency). You get 10-15 percentage points higher capacity factor offshore, and you can fit 8-10MW turbines there, whereas on land you're limited to 2-3MW typically (which is more expensive in operation).

[JohnMoosenl]

The main reason for putting wind turbines off-shore isn't public perception, but generating potential (and consistency). You get 10-15 percentage points higher capacity factor offshore, and you can fit 8-10MW turbines there, whereas on land you're limited to 2-3MW typically (which is more expensive in operation).

Sea or land, the problem of intermittent wind stays the same. Its gonna be unreliable at best.
In the end putting them off shore means a lot more corrosion, difficulty in building (sea depth), damage due to storms and more cost in repair and maintenance (think shipping/helicopters and the need for calm seas).

[bitslice]

Yes it is.

Whatever 
this was a moderation problem, nothing to do with me - everyone but you seems to understand this.

If you saw a psychology paper that said: [...]
Then you know right there that it's bullshit.

I didn't realise you'd demand a copy of the entire paper rather than my one line summary

PS: Psychology papers? 99% waffle/bullshit. Sigmund Freud, the most famous psychologist in history? Wrong about almost everything.

M'kay

So does singing ... or anything else that distracts the brain.

Point being?

[mux]

The main reason for putting wind turbines off-shore isn't public perception, but generating potential (and consistency). You get 10-15 percentage points higher capacity factor offshore, and you can fit 8-10MW turbines there, whereas on land you're limited to 2-3MW typically (which is more expensive in operation).

Sea or land, the problem of intermittent wind stays the same. Its gonna be unreliable at best.
In the end putting them off shore means a lot more corrosion, difficulty in building (sea depth), damage due to storms and more cost in repair and maintenance (think shipping/helicopters and the need for calm seas).

Again, this is not actually how it goes in reality. The single dominant cost and reliability factor for putting wind turbines offshore is power distribution. Corrosion, building, damage due to storms is just not an issue. These are solved engineering problems and due to the good scaling of wind energy they're still more cost effective than onshore.

Of course capacity factor is always going to be an issue, but that's just the reality of centralized power generation. Natural gas plants have similar capacity factors in practice. This is not an issue; you solve this through other engineering means. In the end the question is: with all this engineering cost, is it cost competitive?

[FrankBuss]

Don't know if it was already mentioned in this forum, but if you generate solar cell power, you can get money for free:

http://solarcoin.org

It's like Bitcoin, but instead of wasting power for Bitcoin mining rigs, it rewards you for using solar power, only, and you are still free to use the power for what you want. The idea is a positive feeback: If more people are using Solarcoin as money to buy things, or even just convert it to Bitcoin with other people buying it because they believe in the idea, it gets worth more, and the incentive to build more solar cell generators gets higher for a better world.

Interview with the founder Nick Gogerty, by singularity podcaster Nikola Danaylov:



But I guess it still wouldn't make the french solar roadway profitable, if they register it

[AndyC_772]

I do highly recommend Penn & Teller: Bullshit! 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penn_%26_Teller:_Bullshit!
Should be required watching for all kids.

All 8 seasons on DVD, just arrived from Ebay 

[wizpip]

+1 for swearing. I don't think it detracts from the arguments at hand.

Tried to put a video in, but it didn't go to the right time index, doh! 'Brits' aren't sensitive to swearing. After 9pm on TV you can say whatever you want, to the surprise of many foreign guests.

[zapta]

Tried to put a video in, but it didn't go to the right time index, doh! 'Brits' aren't sensitive to swearing. After 9pm on TV you can say whatever you want, to the surprise of many foreign guests.

We also have swearing here, in certain districts of our cities, all day.

[Romain]

Dave, some innovation (in the good way?) from Australia about solar energy:


Do you think you could find some time to pay them a visit? 

[EEVblog]

French article:
http://www.techniques-ingenieur.fr/actualite/articles/2000-euros-route-solaire-normandie-segolene-royal-37483/

Colas Solar Road costs €2000sqm, not including road surface prep!
20 times the installed cost of a commercial solar system.

Translated:

At what price ? € 5 million. Every square meter is going to cost 1962 euros for solar panel. And after the Orne Prefecture this cost does not include asphalt and poses. So the real cost exceeds the likely € 2,000 per square meter.

20 times more expensive than standard solar

Knowing that according to the director of Wattway every square meter has a power of 110 Watts the cost of solar road Wattway (excluding mandatory coated) is € 17.8 Watt. The cost of solar PV plants is today of 0.7 to 1 € / W, one of the floating solar PV 1 € / W, the solar shadehouses 1.5 to 2 € / W and that of PV solar roofing 1.5 to 2.5 € / W. And there is not a small demonstrator of 50 square-meters as in Vendee (3200 € per square meter depending on the charge of the Department communication) but a large-scale project, over one kilometer.

The Minister said repeatedly it wants 1,000 kilometers of solar road, which will cost 5 billion euros on the basis of the project cost in the Orne. The SNA Norman company must produce 5,000 meter-square panels of Wattway 2017 to power the construction of the road Tourouvre but also for other small projects of 50 to 100-square-meter unit. There is no substantial cost reduction in wait with a volume as small production. ANS company that has been in the past and swindled into receivership is not the end of his troubles.

The astronomical cost of Wattway projects is actually the tree that hides the forest even more worrying: the economic cost reflects the energy cost of this technology. You need to consume a lot of energy to produce super-strong glue for panels not to take off when a truck suddenly brakes. It takes more waterproof panels and a structure able to resist crushing, which is also energy consuming.

An energy intensive road
For many solar experts it is possible that Ségolène Royal road is actually a negative energy route, ie using more energy to build than it will deliver during his life cut short by the passage of vehicles .

The panels placed flat and in the shade of trees and electric poles Norman will not improve the balance sheet. Dr Franck Barruel CEA employee and scientific referent Wattway project announced in January 2016 about the EROI of Wattway that "  a first estimate may be issued during the year 2016  ". Contacted by Technical engineering it a week ago about this estimate this scientist, who is the only one authorized to communicate on Wattway within the INES, has not responded.

The EROI, energy returned on energy invested, ratio of energy produced to energy consumed, is nevertheless a key parameter of truly sustainable development. How consider installing one kilometer of a road if it was not calculated seriously? The environment, it starts to do well?

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

but hey, for €2000 they'll throw in the equivalent of a square metre of ashpalt.

[Miles Teg]

Recent article with a video:
http://positivr.fr/colas-routes-solaires-france-2-2/

Installation seems more serious than the US version, but... do the maths men...

[Miles Teg]

http://www.wattwaybycolas.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Wattway-DP-GB-June2016.pdf

English version of press kit.
With some interview samples of some, i thought, serious people.