EEVblog #841 - Microchip MPLAB X PICkit 3 Woes

[EEVblog]

About your new product: I think it would be far more interesting if you showed what you're actually developing/working on instead of always keeping it a secret. It's so often that I hear you saying "I'm working on this, I'm doing that... but I can't talk about it." Why is that?

Because the company who is actually developing it is paying for that development. Agreements are in place. It is understandable they do not want me talking about every aspect of the development with the public.

I think that's what a vlog should actually be about, and what the term "video blog" implies, a video web log of your daily life as an engineer.

That has never has been the case for my "Video Blog".
There are some others that do that if that's what you are after.

[EEVblog]

The bottom line is that if Dave doesn't tell you something - it's because it's not his place to say.

Yes, I'm usually open to a fault. If I say I can't show something then there are good reasons for that. Sometimes it might be a legal reason, sometimes it might just be personal preference (e.g. to avoid a flood of "why didn't you do this or that" bitching comments, or I simply don't think its worthwhile shooting and releasing something on it) or anything in between.

As for the product in question, I would love to blog the development of it, but I legally can't do that.

[mux]

Don't get too worked up about this, Dave it's absolutely impossible to satiate everyone.

[philn]

Because the company who is actually developing it is paying for that development. Agreements are in place. It is understandable they do not want me talking about every aspect of the development with the public.

Okay, I get that. I thought you were talking about the uCurrent or other EEVBlog products you are currently developing, because that's what I think would be great to see more of on the blog.

[TheCharels]

It's not like I hacked the tool in the past, I simply used it as it was intended to be used, with their tool. Then when I go to use it a few years later it doesn't work, and it's completely non-obvious why that is the case.
How is that my fault?

What appears in your video shows that latest versions of MPLAB (X and v8.92) are used to attempt to connect to the PICkit3. Then the oldest version of the PICkit3 standalone GUI, then the final PICkit3 standalone GUI. This is the one that seems to have gotten it sane enough to work with MPLAB.

That you needed to use all these steps to get MPLAB to connect suggests that when you last used the PICkit3 you left it in a mode where only the standalone GUI could connect to it. Your fault? No. Contributory negligence maybe.

I agree that this is an awful lot of fiddling around. Microchip tools must have better messages to inform casual users that the ICD tool needs updated firmware. Coughing up a "cannot connect" message is just BS.

[Tek_TDS220]

I've used both the AVR IDE and MPLAB X (with an ICD3).  I much prefer the MPLAB X environment, and I mostly use Microchip parts as a consequence.  I know this is a matter of taste.  MPLAB X is incredibly powerful, the editor is wonderful, and it is free!  Dave's complaints are mostly legitimate, but he goes way overboard in my opinion. 

Why is not downloading the compiler at the same time a problem?  I think Dave is underestimating the problem of translating source code to new compiler versions.

As for problems with downloading, I've never had a problem from my relatively slow connection.

[D3f1ant]

I prefer the MplabX IDE too. If you disabled all the plugins you don't use/need/want it loads a bit faster. A feature of the  pickit3 I really like is the program to go function, saves so much time when you have load firmware into a large batches of prototype devices. They say not use it for 'production programming' but from what I understand that is only because the pickit can't verify over a wide enough voltage range. I don't see that being a problem if your running the mcu on a regulated supply.
ICD3 is better/faster/more capable tool, and you can pick them up for a discount during E14 sales, or during Microchips own sales.

[mux]

Tek/Defiant: do you prefer MPLAB X to Atmel Studio (the Visual Studio fork) or to AVR Studio? Because I can understand the latter, but I can't see how anything trumps visual studio. It's a programmer's dream, maybe aside from Sublime. If you're already accustomed to C#/C++ programming in VS2012+, it's also very easy to get into.

[forrestc]

Tek/Defiant: do you prefer MPLAB X to Atmel Studio (the Visual Studio fork) or to AVR Studio? Because I can understand the latter, but I can't see how anything trumps visual studio. It's a programmer's dream, maybe aside from Sublime. If you're already accustomed to C#/C++ programming in VS2012+, it's also very easy to get into.

I can't compare with the AVR, but I will mention that MPLABX is Netbeans underneath.  It even handles netbeans plugins which are for the underlying version of netbeans.

For me, this is awesome since I do a lot of embedded web server work on the PIC's.  As a result, I can actually do the web development for the web pages which live in the embedded system right on the box.   It's also GCC and a pretty standard make under the surface for PIC32's, so you can do some of the customization you'd expect.

-forrest

[Simon]

God help atmel if they sell out to microchip, or rather god help those of us who will want to use the parts that actually do whjat we want. The equivalent AVR programmers do not do all this bollocks where to have to set it to differrent modes and download new firmware to the programmer every time you change device category. it's nuts.

[TheCharels]

After a 40 minute rant on using the PICkit3 with MPLABX how long will the rant on MPLABX be when Dave has used it to develop code?

MPLAB v8.92 is old, feature poor but at least it has behaved consistently. MPLABX is moody. At times these advanced "features" of the editor fail to work as expected.  I've been using v3.10 for a while now and know about most of the issues. I am wary of upgrading to v3.20 until more users have reported on its behavior.

I just hope Dave have a boring productive experience so I can move on to MPLABX v3.20 confident that Microchip has done a good job.

[bitwelder]

As for the product in question, I would love to blog the development of it, but I legally can't do that.

Do you think you will be (legally) able to walk through the product development, once the product will be out?
(If so, please remember to collect some clips while you're developing on it)

[vloki]

A good example of how a tool that should have just worked, turned into a nightmare ...

Just another "good example" of what can happen if users don't read the readme
and forget all the hints they get when switching the PK3 OS.
Anyway very entertaining

[Howardlong]

A good example of how a tool that should have just worked, turned into a nightmare ...

Just another "good example" of what can happen if users don't read the readme
and forget all the hints they get when switching the PK3 OS.

Riiiight. There speaks the voice of experience. Not! Not a week goes by without something not working on a hardware debugger. Debugging the debugger is regrettably an accepted tax on development time, indeed it's a rare but pleasant surprise when it does work as expected.

[vloki]

The equivalent AVR programmers do not do all this bollocks where to have to set it to differrent modes ...

Guess the devellopers of these products have been clever enough not to budge to the customers
complains and did not give them what they want. It's more easy to service if there is only one mode...

[Feynman]

I rather use a good IDE with shit tools, than a shit IDE with shit tools. So I use MPLAB X 

[Drazn]

I'm with MC for some 15 years, MC Design House and ex Distributor. Only what I can say MC software is crap. X is enormous, slow Java crap. MC is NOT for professional use! Even today X has problems with breakpoints (all MC IDEs have this problem) and very slim functionality compared to ARM tools. Compilers, even they are GCC (x16 and x32), have problems (eg breakpoins again). Expensive RealICE could not be compared to cheaper and more powerful Segger.
For last two years I'm on ARM and thats totally different story, software and hardware. Debuggers are more expensive than RealICE (Lauterbach 5000Eur, DSStream 3000Eur, Segger 500-900Eur) but what you get and what you could do is light years ahead of MC. Java crap Eclipse is faster than X with identical functionality.
ARM (M3) is more powerful than PIC32 (MX series)- various features like FBP, DWT, etc. My JTAG speed is 25MHz! with 30cm cable and NEVER any problem during debugging. As different to RealICE where communications error are normal. Not to mention Performance Pack  where for 150Eur you do not even get plastic box! Or 70 USD trace cable for PIC32 with 20 cm flat cable, few resistors, PCB and connector!
Identical story for MC libraries, not to mention crap called Harmony.

And now Atmel is going to become software disaster! I'm sure MC is not going to support Visual Studio for PICs!

[VK3DRB]

Microchip is nowhere near as bad as Microsoft. Installing the super-bloatware Visual Studio Community Edition produces strange errors come up on the PC. I spent 2 days frigging around with trying to install this rubbish and in the end gave up. Based upon the many bugs and bad UI in recent versions of MS Word, I can only conclude Microsoft is not funding their R & D properly, or are outsourcing the R & D to India. Maybe Gates and Bullmer hand back some of their loot for hiring decent project managers, programmers and test people. I work with a Visual Studio guru who agrees Microsoft has seriously gone downhill in the last few years. I noticed when the MPLAB crashed, Microsoft's error message inviting you to check for a solution on-line. Why didn't Dave click on that option? Because he, like everyone else, knows Microsoft will just waste their time with some answer aimed at old age pensioners.

At least with the PICkit 3, once it is working it is pretty rock solid. It is a little slow though and the ICD 3 is much faster. And at least it is a genuine PICkit 3 and not an pirated device made by some comrade in China. Good luck with the project. The 24 series are pretty good chips.

[mux]

That must be some serious grudge against Microsoft, because basically the one and only reason they're so successful is because they've always been such a good platform for developers, developers, developers. Visual Studio is the bomb and VSCE is no exception. It's one of those tools, like IntelliJ IDEA, where the tool really does so much for you that you don't even consider it until you have to switch to something else and suddenly realize how much unnecessary typing and searching you have to do all of the sudden.

Doesn't mean they're perfect, but they're far from buggy and bloatware. If that was your experience, you've probably done something wrong on your end?

Also... Neither Gates nor Ballmer have anything to do with this and haven't had for over 10 years now

[Len]

Installing the super-bloatware Visual Studio Community Edition produces strange errors come up on the PC. I spent 2 days frigging around with trying to install this rubbish and in the end gave up.

I use Visual Studio Community and Pro editions on several PCs and I haven't had any strange errors. (Except in my own code of course.)

[VK3DRB]

... Neither Gates nor Ballmer have anything to do with this and haven't had for over 10 years now

Sounds like Dick Smith.

Thinking about Dave's PICkit in the wrong mode, smart software would have told him it in the wrong mode - like a warning message when it could not connect. No fault by Dave at all. Good software design would have save Dave a day's work.

[Drazn]

Microchip is nowhere near as bad as Microsoft. Installing the super-bloatware Visual Studio Community Edition produces strange errors come up on the PC. I spent 2 days frigging around with trying to install this rubbish and in the end gave up. Based upon the many bugs and bad UI in recent versions of MS Word, I can only conclude Microsoft is not funding their R & D properly, or are outsourcing the R & D to India. Maybe Gates and Bullmer hand back some of their loot for hiring decent project managers, programmers and test people. I work with a Visual Studio guru who agrees Microsoft has seriously gone downhill in the last few years. I noticed when the MPLAB crashed, Microsoft's error message inviting you to check for a solution on-line. Why didn't Dave click on that option? Because he, like everyone else, knows Microsoft will just waste their time with some answer aimed at old age pensioners.

At least with the PICkit 3, once it is working it is pretty rock solid. It is a little slow though and the ICD 3 is much faster. And at least it is a genuine PICkit 3 and not an pirated device made by some comrade in China. Good luck with the project. The 24 series are pretty good chips.

There is a BIG difference between MC and MS, VS is complete Windows (x86, x64 and ARM) development suite with compilers, SDKs, various editors (eg graphics) and help system for all of above. In VS are included SEVERAL (one of the best) compilers - C/C++, C#, F#, etc. Not to mention resource "compiler", help, installation.
X is ONLY IDE, buggy IDE and awfully slow! Did you tried to press F1 in source file with caret on some C function or PIC register? What about InteliSense? I can just ha ha ha 

I agree with one: VS is getting worse! It started with VS.net, than disaster VS10. Latest VS2015 is big speed improvement to 2013.

[FrankBuss]

Another interesting problem: Don't press the black button of the PICkit3 (program-to-go function), it can brick your PIC and the programmer:
http://www.microchip.com/forums/m635420.aspx
Might be releated to the comment later in the thread last year, that the PICkit3 can only provide 30 mA if you power your board from it, and behaves undefined if your board needs more. A bit more current would have been nice, or at least one more dollar worrth of parts for over current protection.

[mux]

I like this concept of a 'DO NOT PRESS THIS'-button. Adds a bit of spice to an otherwise dull life.

[cezar]

Did anyone notice that?

https://www.microchip.com/mplab/mplab-xpress