EEVblog #833 - Mailbag

[EEVblog]

b) There are countless religions with incompatible ideas (the "they can't all be right" bit)

If there was one that was right, what would you expect from it?

Err, you know, evidence...
Like maybe a holy book that actually said something that was so far ahead of it's time that it could have no other source of that knowledge than some supreme being that gave it to them.
But no, all we get are books full of often contradictory stuff, some stuff that's plain wrong, and that was written with no more knowledge than what the people understood in the day.
To anyone who's not indoctrinated into the faith, the divine origin of holy books is laughable.

[miguelvp]

Things are not that simple really.

The Catholic church has always maintained that there is not a Holly Book to follow, it is in essence a way of life following the teachings of Jesus.

The Bible doesn't hold all the truths, is inaccurate, distorted, open to interpretation and not to be taken literally.

So pretty much a Son of God what they say we are is really a Son of Nature, but with one difference. Our nature is not that great, we have tribal tendencies and as history has proven often, we are pretty brutal in essence.

The so called Teachings are a way to play nice in unison with Nature itself and each other. Probably not as good as other religions but the fundamentals are really not that bad and they do tend to adapt with the times but sometimes with a lot of lag.

History has proven that dramatic changes are not really good for societies and that's why our US system works well because it doesn't allow drastic changes in policies both internal or external, of course it has advantages and disadvantages.

In any event, the Catholic church does teach evolution vs creationism even 40 years ago. Same thing with the fossil record since the strata theory actually was backed by them, they have no conflict with Science since after all they pretty much instituted it.

There are a lot of misconceptions and yet the traditional views oriented towards the uneducated still prevail because in reality there are a lot of uneducated masses out there. As what the sheep represents.

Catholicism is just a departure from Barbarism that is engrained in our nature (as far as the tribal aspect of it). Humans have very strong tendencies not to accept and fight other cultures or tribes. Egocentrism is more dangerous in their view so therefore this organization was formed because of one man (real or mythical)  decided that he wanted to change the world, and not many have succeeded at that task even if many tried.

So the allegories are still needed because it's easier for the lay people to understand, but its just another sociopolitical group pushing their view of how to live in peace because there are a ton of uninformed people that just want to pick a fight because of our brutal nature.

To me, I think such organizations are still needed and equate it to anarchy vs government. It's never been about "The God" or the lack of one, it's a way to balance in tune with what the other views are and not doing drastic changes that could bring more chaos.

Good and Evil is a reality or is it not?

What does the freedom of an omnipotent God mean for the unwashed masses?

Myself I don't think I need the dogma or being a practitioner of the actual religion, because I do treat others as I want to be treated, and that is the crux of that so called "Teachings"

I do believe in the right path, does that make me a God believer? Nope, I'm a believer of reaching the ultimate truth but still not abuse my position in life versus others because Karma or my upbringing and how I was shaped in my mind kind of prevents that.
Still my decision because I'm free of thought, I don't align well with others because it's impossible to have rational conversations but I see no conflict in my views.

As for Reagan and the occult, well, that was the fad back then, my mom was all into the Tarot cards, Astrology and reading the Iris of your eyes. But the Catholics doesn't believe in ghosts, but everyone was doing it back then.

What it's more scary to me is how close we have almost started a nuclear war in several incidents because of the notion of us vs them.

Yeah, there is a lot of that us vs them in the States as well, I despise the concept of  "if you are not with us you are against us" that is prevalent not just in the US, but England, Australia even, France, and a lot of other countries to mention.

Show weakness and you'll be taken over. Yup that is Nature at its best, so again, things are really not that simple.

Edit: So to clarify, do we dare go against Nature as in our Nature? I'll say yes because the alternative is really not a good one in my opinion.

Edit2: And don't worry, I won't be excommunicated for my views. And yes the Catholic church has done barbaric things in times when they struggled within powers at hand and the whole Galileo ordeal when it didn't make sense since Copernicus was given the go ahead and publish. Things get out of hand because after all we are Human and have tendencies to fly off the handle.

Power is a bad thing on any given person's hands. Some more than others, but I don't see general acceptance of all the groups in this planet to this day. All countries and organizations still have something crawling up their butts. So, we are not even close to be truly enlighten. So keep on casting those stones since it's what we are best at.

Edit3: Furthermore, about beliefs. We all have beliefs, do you belief that not killing other tribes that don't agree with you is a good thing or a bad thing? How do you prove that not being barbaric and following our natural tendencies is a bad thing? After all hate is within us at many levels and it's part of nature right?
When do you break off nature and try to bring beliefs that might not be in tune of nature itself? Leave it to our Governments? Yeah, that will work out very nicely

We will keep on taking each others rights because if I don't like your toys no one can play with them, that is human nature, so we all end up as drones with no rights and truly sheep at the end

[bills]

You know all you  Atheists are going to hell 

[bills]

You guys are as bad as the born agains

[Marco]

And yes the Catholic church has done barbaric things in times when they struggled within powers at hand and the whole Galileo ordeal when it didn't make sense since Copernicus was given the go ahead and publish. Things get out of hand because after all we are Human and have tendencies to fly off the handle.

Why the focus on Catholicism? It is not the be all and end all of all religions. There might be harmless religions, some might even argue beneficial, but that doesn't mean there aren't harmful religions. The other Abrahamic religions don't believe in treating others as they want themselves to be treated (or rather you should be aware of the quotation marks around others in their case).

[Brumby]

You would be hard pressed to find anyone here who can claim that they are a descendant of that particular group of settlers.

I am related to the first free settlers to come to Australia.

'Free' settlers were not the group being referred to.

[miguelvp]

There is no Hell, or haven't you heard?

The problem is that people have tendencies to take things too literally. I don't even think there is a Heaven either and that's just a concept of being in tune with Nature but not following our natural tendencies, as in looking into the future of your descendants and humanity in general.

I do find it fascinating that at least there is an organization out there that has more power than the UN (because that is just a joke since they really don't have enough determination and don't want to shake the ground too much or perhaps not enough strenght) trying to keep a balance on human affairs. Wrong? Right? it is what it is. It's just a set of systems influencing other systems and trying to keep things in balance.

[bills]

There is no Hell, or haven't you heard?

The problem is that people have tendencies to take things too literally. I don't even think there is a Heaven either and that's just a concept of being in tune with Nature but not following our natural tendencies, as in looking into the future of your descendants and humanity in general.

I do find it fascinating that at least there is an organization out there that has more power than the UN (because that is just a joke since they really don't have enough determination and don't want to shake the ground too much or perhaps not enough strenght) trying to keep a balance on human affairs. Wrong? Right? it is what it is. It's just a set of systems influencing other systems and trying to keep things in balance.

Wow I am glad to know that

[miguelvp]

And yes the Catholic church has done barbaric things in times when they struggled within powers at hand and the whole Galileo ordeal when it didn't make sense since Copernicus was given the go ahead and publish. Things get out of hand because after all we are Human and have tendencies to fly off the handle.

Why the focus on Catholicism? It is not the be all and end all of all religions. There might be harmless religions, some might even argue beneficial, but that doesn't mean there aren't harmful religions. The other Abrahamic religions don't believe in treating others as they want themselves to be treated (or rather you should be aware of the quotation marks around others in their case).

As far as I know the other Abrahamic religions don't tolerate the rest. That's why the focus on it. Catholics did depart that Abrahamic point of view since it's inception. It's more of a Humanist model and less of a religious one but played within those terms because people don't want or need drastic changes.

The point of view of love your neighbor extends beyond your neighborhood, that's not understood by other groups either religious or political.

It's all about what can we get and less of what are we taking from others. I think that 99% of us in this forum would care less about people that work hard and suffer as long as we are pampered and having a good life. And I DO include myself among those 99%. Because I also have my own struggles and needs and my family takes precedence to what I'm capable of doing.

Yeah we are all imperfect in many ways.

[coppice]

I'm going to bring my comments to an end here.  It's been a good discussion.  The truth is, at some point even the atheist has to make an unfalsifiable claim (like appealing to the Anthropic Principle) to support the unfalsifiable claim that there is no God.

Atheism == without theism. Claiming there is no god is not an atheist claim. Claiming we currently have no evidence for any kind of god is an atheist claim. Things like the god of the bible are clearly human constructs, but is there some kind of super being out there? Are we just a simulation running in some giant celestial data centre, and god is a programmer? We will probably never know, one way or the other. We certainly don't know at this time.

[miguelvp]

Allegory time:

How many hate pewdiepie for making so much money, or a CEO, or the President of the United States for making a mere $400,000/year.
What is fair what is not?

What is your salary compared to the truly suffering out there? Is it fair to you?

Heck, people blame Dave for making too much "just blogging". Yeah, envy and looking at others how good they have it, but at the end, they just don't know that we all struggle in our own ways.

Maybe there is some that don't, but why does that matter that much?

How many musicians struggle vs the ones that make it. Art the same, Sports the same, Life the same.

We are no better than any other colonies out there trying to do the best for our colony regardless of the other colonies. Nature dictates that, but it does "feel" wrong to me and many, but its still our nature!

Natural selection really means the survival of the fittest, of course that is not fair but that's what nature really is. What makes us so superior to our peers?

I know, the notion that if I can do this, then everyone can, so they should work and figure it out on their own!

But how is that fair? At the end of the day we are discussing 1st world problems while ignoring the rest and our own humanity, well I guess not ignoring it as much as following it and not fighting it in order to be at least more Human "as the concept not the reality of it"

Edit: At the end of the day, who is right or who is wrong?
Well, we all are Wrong.

The only people who are Right.... let me rephrase that.... the only people that have no Right, don't have a voice all because of our Natural tendencies.
The concept of being Pious is the struggle against Nature, not Science, well maybe Science since Nature is right. But we kind of think we know better and we fight it because some of us don't feel right hurting others.

Edit2: So, unless someone wants to refute that we do tend to fight our Nature instead of following what Science dictates, it means we are in a way contrary to Nature itself. Why is that? are we truly different than the rest of Nature?
Do we have something that makes us different than the natural order?
Yeah, we do have bigger brains than the rest of the animals (actually consuming a lot of energy) but those are there to actually give us an advantage but we tend not to pull the trigger although most times we do pull that trigger.
Yet, we do pause at times, as in, we are superior beings. Why is that? What makes us different than the rest of Nature and don't follow Natural Law?

[han]

Science law is far more superior then religious law.(nobody and nothing can escape from it)

thous shalt not kill???you shall not commit adultery???
even one who introduce the story do it...

[miguelvp]

Science law is far more superior then religious law.(nobody and nothing can escape from it)

thous shalt not kill???you shall not commit adultery???
even one who introduce the story do it...

So, let's fuck everything up and be primal as Nature intends.

Edit: or instead: making a hypocritical display of virtue (definition of Pious) and take the high ground (well the high ground implies ready for battle too)

[han]

Science law is far more superior then religious law.(nobody and nothing can escape from it)

thous shalt not kill???you shall not commit adultery???
even one who introduce the story do it...

So, let's fuck everything up and be primal as Nature intends.

Edit: or instead: making a hypocritical display of virtue (definition of Pious) and take the high ground (well the high ground implies ready for battle too)

too late.. ISIS already do that..

[miguelvp]

Science law is far more superior then religious law.(nobody and nothing can escape from it)

thous shalt not kill???you shall not commit adultery???
even one who introduce the story do it...

So, let's fuck everything up and be primal as Nature intends.

Edit: or instead: making a hypocritical display of virtue (definition of Pious) and take the high ground (well the high ground implies ready for battle too)

too late.. ISIS already do that..

Inequity is doing that.

[han]

Quote: "Inequity is doing that."
There is no good or evil, we create them. If no sentinel present, who care what happen to the universe.

[miguelvp]

Quote: "Inequity is doing that."
There is no good or evil, we create them. If no sentinel present, who care what happen to the universe.

I agree, but you can only push a group of people so far until they rebel.

I've seen how the Algerians are treated in France, or the Moroccans  in Spain, it's even worse than how they treated the Gypsies back in the day, I say they should welcome them, specially with the low growth population in Europe, they do need Immigrants to keep the economy up.

But Human nature dominate us after all.

We are not to blame as well, the whole "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free." doesn't have much meaning in here anymore.

Yeah, let us just go back to all the insane wars from medieval times or throughout History itself.

Nature rules, but to me that's a lack of perception.

Edit: Inserting quote, that's all.
Edit2, taking out the not because we are to blame as well. It was a typo

[miguelvp]

If you are not with us you are against us, is totally anti-democratic because it takes away the  freedom of choosing your point of view.

It's a new dogma, but not a good dogma in my opinion.

Edit: but this goes against nature, majority rules is the norm, so dissenting views gets you killed. So I guess we go with natural law and don't complain what the majority decided and if we are against them we are a minority and deserve to die.

[daqq]

b) There are countless religions with incompatible ideas (the "they can't all be right" bit)

If there was one that was right, what would you expect from it?

Proof? Non-falsifiability? I mean, seriously, how hard is it for an all powerful deity to make people take it seriously? If a god wants to be taken seriously, he could quite literally arrange the stars to form the following text:

Hi there, I'm God, the correct religion to follow is Christianity, the correct interpretation was found by one obscure little sect with 42 members in the Russian taiga, the Followers of the Holy Potato and Borscht, ask them about it.

Or perhaps whisper it to people before going to sleep? Maybe encode it into pi, or e? Be a bit more explicit?

At the moment the evidence for deities is on the same levels as evidence of the existence of Hogwarts and Harry Potter.

[Fungus]

You would be hard pressed to find anyone here who can claim that they are a descendant of that particular group of settlers.

I am related to the first free settlers to come to Australia.

I think he was referring to the groups of "non-free" settlers that used to get shipped over there.

[Fungus]

the media does make it seem that this country is full of religious zealots.   Thankfully that is not the truth on the ground in most places.

In the early 90s I lived in the USA as an exchange student for 1 year. I lived in a rural area in upstate NY, and as far as I can remember, religion was a very important part of everybody's life. There were a multitude of faiths: mormons, catholics (minority), protestants, baptists, and so one, but it seemed like everyone had to adhere to one form or another of christianism. By the time I didn't declare myself as an atheist, but I didn't like going to church and I had my quarrels with "god": apparently there is no "Customer Service" in heaven for a poorly heard prayer!

I also spent some time in Arlington, VA, and I was literally just across the street from Washington, DC. The folks I lived there with were also religious, although not as much as people in NY state.

Try playing some online games. At about 3pm (European time) a whole load of players usually come online with names like "Jesus is King", "Jesus is Lord", etc.  Guess which country is waking up...

[Fungus]

Things are not that simple really.

Yes they are.

The Catholic church has always maintained that there is not a Holly Book to follow, it is in essence a way of life following the teachings of Jesus.

The Bible doesn't hold all the truths, is inaccurate, distorted, open to interpretation and not to be taken literally.

You've just thrown away the only evidence that the whole thing isn't a Fairy Tale.  The only thing you have left is dogma.

[miguelvp]

Things are not that simple really.

Yes they are.

The Catholic church has always maintained that there is not a Holly Book to follow, it is in essence a way of life following the teachings of Jesus.

The Bible doesn't hold all the truths, is inaccurate, distorted, open to interpretation and not to be taken literally.

You've just thrown away the only evidence that the whole thing isn't a Fairy Tale.  The only thing you have left is dogma.

I didn't throw away  a thing. The reality is that, We, as Human beings, Do Not Care about other Human Beings.

Natural Selection at its best.

If that's what you want, well, that's what it is.

As predators and Natural beings, that's our essence, and that is the truth. Is that a good truth for us?
I doubt that.

[Fungus]

Science law is far more superior then religious law.(nobody and nothing can escape from it)

thous shalt not kill???you shall not commit adultery???
even one who introduce the story do it...

So, let's fuck everything up and be primal as Nature intends.

Weird that mortal man can produce things like the Universal Declaration of Human rights.


PS: For those who haven't read The Bible: The "Ten Commandments" usually quoted is really only the first ten items of Mosaic Law. It doesn't stop after 10, it goes on for pages and pages. It has all the "stone the queers" and "how to sell your children into slavery" stuff.

The place where it actually says "The Ten Commandments" is Exodus 34, verse 28.

Exodus 34 really interesting reading. A classic example of where The Bible totally messes up and contradicts itself.

Please take 2 minutes: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+34&version=NIV

Now tell me again that The Bible is divinely inspired.

(My favorite: "Do not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk")

[Fungus]

At the moment the evidence for deities is on the same levels as evidence of the existence of Hogwarts and Harry Potter.

At least Harry Potter is consistent, logical and doesn't self-contradict.