EEVblog #779 - How To Measure Product Battery Cutoff Voltage

[Bud]

proof that someone bought dislikes on my Batteriser videos on the 24th August, out of Vietnam.

Perhaps they feel their Monkey God was offended?

All of a sudden many Vietnamese speak English...

[EEVblog]

why is it possible to have more dislikes than views?

Because they don't play the video enough for Youtube to register a view.
When you pay a company to buy dislikes (or likes) they farm it out to people who open the link and then hit like/dislike and then close it and they collect their commission.
Youtube is very fussy about what constitutes a view, so they have complex algorithms for that. Not so (or nearly as much) for thumbs.

[dr.diesel]

Not so (or nearly as much) for thumbs.

This entire part needs revamped.  I routinely get cause you watched this video suggestions, even ones I thumb down, from the same YTer,     

[Fsck]

Not so (or nearly as much) for thumbs.

This entire part needs revamped.  I routinely get cause you watched this video suggestions, even ones I thumb down, from the same YTer,     

I see. I'm not sure why they didn't just tack the like/dislike system on top of their view system

[Godzil]

  no comments or visit from vietnam on my blog. What I don"t speak about the batteriser on it?

I think I should put something...

[tree]

no comments or visit from vietnam on my blog. What I don"t speak about the batteriser on it?

I think I should put something...

I wonder if we all put a video shaming batteriser on each of our own youtube channels, will the Vietnamese start hitting that dislike button? That will surely drain all their funding.

[pickle9000]

no comments or visit from vietnam on my blog. What I don"t speak about the batteriser on it?

I think I should put something...

I wonder if we all put a video shaming batteriser on each of our youtube channels, will the Vietnamese start hitting that dislike button? That surely will drain all their funding.

Won't drain the funding much but will make someone in Vietnam very happy and be good evidence against them.

[GoldSrc]

"For an innovative product that nobody has tested"

 

Yeah man, because, you know, boost converters who knows about them, right? 

[Rasz]

It didn't took them long to go and drop 500-ish dislikes on Dave's video.

drop^^^^buy 500-1000 dislikes
if anything Dave should report it to YT.

edit: well Im retarded, reporting to Google haha, that never works. Google was smart enough to insulate itself from any consumer contact (something they paid out of their ass in a EU penalty already, and will probably pay even more soon)

[Fungus]

no comments or visit from vietnam on my blog. What I don"t speak about the batteriser on it?

I think I should put something...

I'm thinking of making a batteriser video now. I don't want to miss out.

[Muxr]

"For an innovative product that nobody has tested"

 

Yeah man, because, you know, boost converters who knows about them, right? 

Didn't you know, their R&D budget and years of experience surpass that of: Analog Devices, Texas Instruments, Maxim, Intersil, ON Semi.. combined.

[tree]

Didn't you know, their R&D budget and years of experience surpass that of: Analog Devices, Texas Instruments, Maxim, Intersil, ON Semi.. combined.

You forgot the masters of DC/DC converters...Linear

[AmmoJammo]

Who buys dislikes on a video that only had 900 views to begin with, I guess it shows that the video was the truth!
On a totally unrelated note, I guess I have many Vietnamese viewers who don't like my video... all at the same time! 

You have to post a screen shot of that!
There is proof they are buying comments, and mostly likely views, and now thumbs down on other videos. Sad.

Why you no like me Vietnam!
I guess I have to wait and see where my 250 other dislikes came from 

[rms112]

... I had to stop watching their last one after 9 minutes because the amount of the stupidity and BS gave me a headache .. They guy claims to have 500 patents and goes and uses a Volt axis to plot a current curve!!! Then uses that support his claim .. The Y axis is volts axis you idiot .. You can't plot a constant current curve on it then use the area under the incorrectly plotted curve to represent power!!! Anyone with basic electrical knowledge knows power= V*I, that guy not only ignored that to support his claims but had the nads to put it on video for everyone on this earth to see ...

Actually, here is how it goes. Have you noticed battery charge is usually given with an mAh value ? So you just multiply a constant value of mA by time in hours to get the charge energy in the battery. 
Unfortunately, the formula can't work because, as they showed in the video, current isn't constant (no better explanation is needed) 

[tree]

... I had to stop watching their last one after 9 minutes because the amount of the stupidity and BS gave me a headache .. They guy claims to have 500 patents and goes and uses a Volt axis to plot a current curve!!! Then uses that support his claim .. The Y axis is volts axis you idiot .. You can't plot a constant current curve on it then use the area under the incorrectly plotted curve to represent power!!! Anyone with basic electrical knowledge knows power= V*I, that guy not only ignored that to support his claims but had the nads to put it on video for everyone on this earth to see ...

Actually, here is how it goes. Have you noticed battery charge is usually given with an mAh value ? So you just multiply a constant value of mA by time in hours to get the charge energy in the battery. 
Unfortunately, the formula can't work because, as they showed in the video, current isn't constant (no better explanation is needed) 

Yes, that was the subtly in that video which he didn't bother explaining. But as you said, multiplying mAh by time is just so wrong. If you look at battery datasheets, the mAh capacity highly depends on discharge current. In a boost converter as the battery voltage decreases, current will have to increase to maintain constant power at the output.

[amyk]

why is it possible to have more dislikes than views?

Because they don't play the video enough for Youtube to register a view.
When you pay a company to buy dislikes (or likes) they farm it out to people who open the link and then hit like/dislike and then close it and they collect their commission.
Youtube is very fussy about what constitutes a view, so they have complex algorithms for that. Not so (or nearly as much) for thumbs.

IIRC the view count is recorded on the (many) video servers that they have (the *.googlevideo.com ones) , spread out over a wide area to improve bandwidth, and only totaled back to the accounting server when they have the time to/periodically. Likes/dislikes aren't recorded on the video servers.

As for why it's coming from Vietnam, probably because the people there are poor enough that paying them to like/dislike/view videos all day is profitable.

[AmmoJammo]

Who buys dislikes on a video that only had 900 views to begin with, I guess it shows that the video was the truth!
On a totally unrelated note, I guess I have many Vietnamese viewers who don't like my video... all at the same time! 

You have to post a screen shot of that!
There is proof they are buying comments, and mostly likely views, and now thumbs down on other videos. Sad.

Why you no like me Vietnam!
I guess I have to wait and see where my 250 other dislikes came from 

It's all gone weird now!

My 136 dislikes from Vietnam has decreased to 103 now... and the USA has apparently disliked the video 208 times....

While the stats page shows 436 dislikes, the video page only shows 401...

There is also a message that says:
"Data for August 31 is incomplete. The issue is being investigated."

iiiinteresting.... me thinks youtube knows something is amiss!

[michi42]

Dave did it WRONG(at least somehow) & Batteriser too

Just my towo censt:

i watched the boring bateriser second reply and think dave did in fact miss the point.
The ESR *Does* matter and the PSU doesn't have it. It won't help you to determine "usefull battery life"

the whole case falls appart into :

claim 1.) cutoff voltage
technically you can measuere the cutoff voltage with a lab PSu with no ESR. That is perfectly right. But it is not (closely) related to battery life. It's just the terminal voltage the product stops working as designed.

claim 2.) ESR does not matter
This is WRONG because a high ESR will ruin your battery life. In "digital" gadgets current spikes will make the *terminal* voltage  set off the cutout detector earlier.
This would be not affecting the monky or a flashlight but the poin&shoot cam or the gps.
to supress the (harmfull) current transients a boost converter *may* help (at a cost). A fat bypass cap or L/C Filter may also do the job (maybe even better).

claim 3) the availabele energy is the area under the constant power curve
Dave claims it is the area under the curve in constant power discharge (not quite right but near enough)
The batteriser response claimed that it would be a0 "rectangular block" with the 1.6V flat top. this is not the case. I think they are mixing input and output voltage over const current.
You can't bypass the internal voltage drop at the ESR.

i think:

To be nit picking: The max extractable energy would be the the energy in a minimum current discharge over a long period of time (to avoid heating it in the ESR. P=I^2RSER)

For practical reasons it would be the curve under the rms-power/time when the device is operated. The more current smoothing, the better. (the power requiremnts of most gadgests are not constant but if so (like a flashlight), we coud think of a boost converter that matches input impedance with battery impedance as done in solar step-up converters)


hm, this kinda get some reigious war isn't it?

BTW: is "Open Terminal Voltage" and State-of-Chare related? From the electrocemistry point of view i would expect that the open terminal voltage is constantant.
Is the recovery time of the terminal voltage (when the load drops to zero) related to battery health or state of charge or something else?


Conlusion:
I think what really ruins your day are those current spikes that cause premature tripping the coutoff voltage.

I have one of these "well designed" garmins that where in the video and (MiMH) batterys are failing exactly on this case. When the garmin rejects them i can still discarge the "drained" batterys for several mAh in my battery monitor at low currents.

[EEVblog]

It's all gone weird now!
My 136 dislikes from Vietnam has decreased to 103 now... and the USA has apparently disliked the video 208 times....

Yep, mine too. The Veitnam ones are now showing negative numbers.
Something is happening
I do know that my video was forwarded inside Google.

There is also a message that says:
"Data for August 31 is incomplete. The issue is being investigated."

Same here.

[Fungus]

to supress the (harmfull) current transients a boost converter *may* help (at a cost).

A boost converter with an energy accumulator (capacitor) in it would definitely help, but:
a) The batteriser doesn't have one.

b) People who design battery-powered gadgets know about this problem. Bypass capacitors are EE 101. If you bought a gadget that suddenly shuts down, turns back on perfectly, suddenly shut down again after 2 minutes use... etc., you'd take it back to the shop as faulty. There would be a recall.

The batteriser response claimed that it would be a0 "rectangular block" with the 1.6V flat top. this is not the case. I think they are mixing input and output voltage over const current.

It is the case for a very specific class of devices (constant current). OTOH:

a) That class of devices is a bad choice for use with a Batteriser. Boosting the input voltage means they use more power, overall battery life will be shorter with Batteriser than without it.
b) None of the devices shown in Batteriser videos so far are constant current - that argument is just there to mislead people into thinking it applies to more gadgets than it really does.

[FrankBuss]

to supress the (harmfull) current transients a boost converter *may* help (at a cost).

A boost converter with an energy accumulator (capacitor) in it would definitely help, but:
a) The batteriser doesn't have one.

How do you know this? Usually a boost converter has one.

b) None of the devices shown in Batteriser videos so far are constant current - that argument is just there to mislead people into thinking it applies to more gadgets than it really does.

Just curious, what devices are constant current devices? I can only think of something like a LED flashlights with a very inefficient linear constant current regulator (a constant current boost converter would result in non-constant current for the battery).

[Fungus]

A boost converter with an energy accumulator (capacitor) in it would definitely help, but:
a) The batteriser doesn't have one.

How do you know this? Usually a boost converter has one.

There will be a capacitor to smooth out the ripple. I doubt it will be big enough to smooth out big dips in voltage when the battery can't supply enough current to keep up (as shown in their video).

b) None of the devices shown in Batteriser videos so far are constant current - that argument is just there to mislead people into thinking it applies to more gadgets than it really does.

Just curious, what devices are constant current devices? I can only think of something like a LED flashlights with a very inefficient linear constant current regulator

Yep. Anything with a linear voltage/current regulator.

More common than your flashlight is something like an LM7805 voltage regulator. The LM7805 outputs 5V independently of the input voltage. A resistive load attached to an LM7805 will draw a constant current (Ohm's law).

Excess voltage is converted into heat. Raising the input voltage (eg. With a batteriser) will simply produce more heat.

[FrankBuss]

Right, a linear voltage regulator with a resistive load (and e.g. a CPU which runs all the time would be on average a constant resistive load at constant voltage) would be a constant current device, too. Which commercially available device uses something like the good old LM7805? Even the Gameboy from 1986 uses an interesting looking DIY switched-mode power supply:
http://www.freeinfosociety.com/electronics/schematics/computer/pictures/gameboypower.gif

[tree]

Right, a linear voltage regulator with a resistive load (and e.g. a CPU which runs all the time would be on average a constant resistive load at constant voltage) would be a constant current device, too. Which commercially available device uses something like the good old LM7805? Even the Gameboy from 1986 uses an interesting looking DIY switched-mode power supply:
http://www.freeinfosociety.com/electronics/schematics/computer/pictures/gameboypower.gif

403 Forbidden! Gotta go up one directory and manually find that gif

[FrankBuss]

403 Forbidden! Gotta go up one directory and manually find that gif

Works here, copy: